[VOID] Into the sixth power circle.

James Hong jhong@xmethods.net
Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:16:29 -0800


Yea.. um, on that note, I'll buy you a milktea at the shop on Villa!

cheers,
james

----
XMethods web service listings - http://www.xmethods.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr. FoRK" <fork_list@hotmail.com>
To: <FoRK@xent.com>; "Adam Rifkin" <adam@xent.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [VOID] Into the sixth power circle.


> ouch.
> Dude, you really need a vacation.
> If you get up my way, stop in, sit by the fire, have some eggnog and
admire
> the tree.
> The hot tub is fired up and good to go.
>
> Rohit, Xander & the gang are all invited too.
>
> M.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Rifkin" <adam@xent.com>
> To: <FoRK@XeNT.CoM>
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 3:06 PM
> Subject: [VOID] Into the sixth power circle.
>
>
> ...yet again, the consciousness gently streams like a rowrowrowyourboat...
>
>
> I like circles.  A lot.  And it's not just because great minds run in
> great circles.
>
> No, I like circles because what goes around, comes around.  I can't
> point to a circle's beginning, nor to its end.  I can only point the
> circle as a whole, and I can talk of certain points along that circle,
> and try to ascertain what they together have to say about the circle as
> a whole as time marches on.
>
> Life is walking one's personal circle, while the circle itself is
> walking a more universal circle.  Every year I come back to the place I
> started, even though the circle I'm on is a year further down its own
> circular path, but I get to choose my fixed points in four-space from my
> own perspective and use the moment to introspect on what I've learned,
> what I forgot to do, and how I want to shift priorities going forward.
>
> Circular logic, to be sure.  But still a worthwhile exercise.
>
> Where was I on previous incarnations of the circle?  At 26, 27, and 28,
> I didn't put fingers to keystrokes to bang out phosphors now archived on
> the Deep Thought that is the World Wide Web.  At 29, 30, and 31, I did.
> Here are some snapshots...
>
> "In case Rohit's forgotten the utility of a good marketeer" -- my circle
> at 26-10days:
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/fall96/0735.html
>
> "There's a slit in my underwear?  Says who?" -- my circle at 27+40days:
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/winter96/0130.html
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/winter96/0148.html
>
> "Isn't life a lot better when FoRK is quiet?" -- my circle at 28+9days:
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/oct97/0799.html
>
> "Flossing is a good time to think" -- my circle at 29:
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/nov98/0134.html
>
> Said Steve Jobs, "Creativity is just connecting things. When you ask
> creative people how they did something, they feel a little guilty
> because they didn't really do it, they just saw something. It seemed
> obvious to them after a while. That's because they were able to connect
> experiences they've had and synthesize new things." -- my circle at 30:
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/nov99/0412.html
>
> "Who says you can't sleep your way to the top?" -- my circle at 31:
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/oct00/1647.html
>
> Of the list of startups at the end of that post, Avogadro was consumed
> by OpenWave, CrossGain was eaten by BEA, Fleetwire died, GoneSilent was
> gutted by Sun, Groove has gotten deeply in bed with Microsoft, and the
> rest of the companies are still not sure what they want to be when/if
> they grow up.  It is next to impossible to build a software company that
> will survive, because the Big Software Companies (TM) swallow or destroy
> every Little Company before it has a chance to become a Big Company.
>
> And KnowNow?
>
> KnowNow 3.0 is no more.  In KnowNow 3.0, the Rohits ruled the earth and
> the software was to be the kind of thing the average developer would
> want.  In KnowNow 4.0, we have fossil records of when the Rohits ruled
> the earth, and software is something rich people in rich companies buy
> to impress other rich people, presumably in other rich companies.  Say
> what you want about Microsoft, at least anyone can afford their software.
>
> In a taste-based culture, you live with the tastes of other people, so
> you'd better make sure before you agree to work with them that their
> tastes are compatible with your own.  If not, and you can set your
> flamethrower to "extra crispy", you'll have a merciless body count.  If
> not, and you're disempowered to do anything about it, you will spend 97%
> of your time plotting about the future instead of working hard to make
> the present happen.  When opportunity costs crossover, everyone's
> surprised but you.
>
> KnowNow 3.0 was about "Two Way Web", and I can now safely say that, like
> KnowNows 0.1, 1.0, and 2.0, that KnowNow 3.0 is dead.  We lost a bunch
> of great minds and a bunch of great ideas.  So far KnowNow 4.0 doesn't
> have any "absolute truths", and that creates a very uneasy power
> structure because it's not stable.  That KnowNow 4.0 will die is not a
> question in my mind anymore; the only questions are whether there will
> be a phoenix-like KnowNow 5.0 rising, and if so, what its value system
> will be.  How many companies within this one -- all unknown to anyone
> outside the company's borders, who see nothing but a stable, unwavering
> path -- will we have to destroy before we finally get it right?
>
> KnowNow 4.0 is about "Integration for the Internet."  I can't complain,
> but I also can't say it's something I would ever have allowed if I were
> in power to do anything about it.  So you could say I've gained a real
> appreciation for realpolitik -- to the point that, despite the fact that
> I'm vegetarian, I'm learning how to become angry enough not just to
> kill, but to relish killing.  I do believe that only if you are able to
> enjoy killing, will you be able to do it properly.  This company for the
> past 24 months has been slowly and surely turning me into a killer.
>
> Put another way, "Not in the Next Culture."  Whether that Next Culture
> is KnowNow 5.0 (the phoenix that comes back after the next round of
> bloodshed in this one), ...or whether it be something that doesn't exist
> yet.  At this point, I have no idea what happens or when; all I know is
> that I can see the "Mexican Standoff" coming -- the point that, like at
> the end of Reservoir Dogs and True Romance, everyone's pointing their
> gun at everyone else and it strictly comes down to a matter of whose
> will is the strongest and who's luckiest enough to survive.
>
> In the Next Culture, we take the people whose tastes are not right on an
> Absolute Scale (whose very nature implies idiotic proclivities) and we
> grind them up for food.  (Now you're asking yourself, if their tastes
> are not my own, won't I gag when I consume them?  And the answer of
> course is no: most people are just tasteless, and the tasteless go down
> very easy.  It's the ones with unbelievably shitty taste that you have
> to wash down with gin-n-juice, but thankfully the genuine shitheads are
> rare.  Nonetheless, they do exist, and when the time comes to fall on
> that grenade, I'll take one for the team.)
>
> Where are all these violent references coming from in my head?
>
> A realization that the energy needed to create (and, conversely, to
> destroy) is an extremely violent energy -- that ideas coming out of
> their wombs are born violently into the world, struggling for their
> first breaths, and that every step in natural selection is a naturally
> violent one.  That there is a lot of economical, logical, and social
> upheaval within companies is not a coincidence; it is a manifestation of
> the cells within the organization that are fighting to take it over.
>
> But this points to a fundamental problem with venture funding: Your
> brain gets smart but your head gets dumb.  Put another way, all the
> companies I consider "great software companies" -- Microsoft, NeXT,
> Intuit, Oracle, Peoplesoft, SAP, Tibco, Lotus, Red Hat -- didn't start
> by getting venture funding.  They started by building successful
> businesses first, and then taking the funding to grow.  The founders
> were in all cases violently uncompromising assholes with egos the size
> of Rohit's, and the founding CEO in all cases stayed at the helm of the
> company throughout the formative initial years as the company struggled
> to survive in a world that's constantly trying to kill it.  On the other
> hand, the incentives to keep a founding CEO in a venture-backed startup
> simply aren't there.
>
> Why should I care?  Because only a company's CEO has the power to make
> radical change in an organization if something's not working.  React
> quickly enough, and the company can navigate difficult waters.  React
> too slowly and one day you wake up dead.  When Bill Gates or Steve Jobs
> put his foot down and said, "This product sucks for these reasons, go
> back and fucking fix it", they *had* to fix it or their heads rolled.
>
> Absolute power, combined with uncompromising vision, is what makes great
> software companies.
>
>
> <pushstacktoinvokeSteveJobs>
>
> Back when Steve Jobs was still at NeXT, he was interviewed by Robert
> X. Cringely for a PBS special called "Triumph of the Nerds" a televised
> version of Cringely's brilliant book Accidental Empires: How the Boys of
> Silicon Valley Made their Millions, Battled Foreign Competition and
> Still Couldn't Get a Date. The best moment in the show came when
> Cringely asked Jobs what he thought about Microsoft.
>
> Jobs leaned back, put on his best ironic smile and said, "They have no
> taste."
>
> There, in four perfect one-syllable words, Jobs not only nailed
> Microsoft, but himself as well. True: while Microsoft has no taste, Jobs
> has nothing but.
>
>   -- http://www.searls.com/2001_07_hailstorm.html
>
> (The full quote from Jobs in the Triumph of the Nerds PBS Documentary:
> "The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste, they have
> absolutely no taste, and what that means is, I don't mean that in a
> small way I mean that in a big way.  I have a problem with the fact that
> they just make really third rate products.")
>
> </pushstacktoinvokeSteveJobs>
>
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
>   -- Winston Churchill
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> Sometimes you never know what's going through a person's head until you
> wear their toupee...
>
> -----Original Message---------------------------------------------------
> From: Rohit Khare
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:11 AM
> To: Adam Rifkin
> Subject: Re: Dear Diary 12/9/2001.
>
> It's OK -- I have a clearer hunch that we're going to be
> splitting paths for a while. Perhaps not as drastic as MBA vs
> PhD completion, but I know that I am working waaay under my
> potential. Because my back's not covered -- I am surrounded
> by folks who won't back up my story when I go forth.
>
> I am convinced Danny techniques will not work here, at
> present. I could be wrong, in absolute terms, but I am
> convinced, nonetheless.
>
> You've always been able to encourage me to work better, 5-10x
> better than I can on my own. You haven't been too eager to
> write in my observation, too.
>
> You are certainly right that I make you unhappier than you
> could be, by default.
>
> Your choice -- I'm at a point that I'm not so needy you can't
> do what's right for you for now.
>
> I almost as certain, though, that you're not going to live up
> to your leadership potential if you're happy.
>
> Rohit
>
>
> -----Original Message---------------------------------------------------
> From: Adam Rifkin
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:40 AM
> To: Rohit Khare
> Subject: Re: Dear Diary 12/9/2001.
>
> I don't think we're gonna split paths, actually.  I think we're getting
> to the same level of disgust, from very different paths.
>
> The thing about Danny Lewin, according to everyone who knew him, is that
> he put his whole heart into it in trying to make something happen,
> before he was willing to condemn something as unworkable.  Because he
> knew he would always have more ideas, he fleshed out everything as best
> he could, whenever he could, for as long as he could.
>
> You will always have more ideas.  Work with me on this one.
>
> I don't give a flying fuck about happiness anymore.  I've come to accept
> that my happiness is not a good goal in life.  The happy people are, for
> the most part, useless because they check out way too early.  Incindiary
> words, to be sure, but when I'm fighting a war I want to lead the angry,
> unhappy ones -- they're the ones who are extremely motivated and have
> nothing to lose.
>
> You hit the nail on the head.  Shipping great software is a good goal.
> Leadership is a better goal.  Making telecom and the Internet available
> to six billion people is a great goal.  Pushing the universe toward
> self-awareness is the best goal.
>
> I have, am, and will continue to watch your back.  Let me not dice
> words: I believe in loyalty, and I believe in faith beyond reason.
> Those two principles guide my life.  Yes, we will lose some battles.
> But we will win the fucking war, or die trying.
>
>    Adam
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I don't have any idea what we're talking about in those notes, because
> I'm seeing two points on a circle without seeing the entire circle as
> context.  All I can see is we're driven by faith in a higher cause,
> and that the most dangerous people in the world are the ones who aren't
> motivated by money, sex, fame, celebrity, glory, or property.
>
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> I will never align with another mercenary again as long as I can help it.
> I will aspire to only align with the chaplains, preachers, evangelists,
> missionaries, cultists, and believers.
>
> Still, as with all good videogames, you have to win in the current
> playing level if you want to move onto the next one.  And winning is not
> about merely surviving.  Winning is about beating your enemies into
> bloody, unrecognizable corpses and burying their tastes and their ideas
> along with their bodies.
>
> It's safe to say that living in a war has hardened me to the point of
> inappropriateness in a post-911 era.
>
> Yet I want to be clear: I'm not talking about the Dark Side.  Recall
> what Yoda said, "Fear is the path to the Dark side. Fear leads to
> hate. Hate leads to anger. Anger leads to suffering."
>
> No, I'm talking about the Good Side.  There are times when Good needs to
> fight, and fight in a way that's hard, calculating, and disciplined.
> The Good Side needs to study its Sun Tzu, and it has to strike
> decisively with crushing blows, just as much as the Dark Side does,
> perhaps more so, because Good is fighting to make things better.
> Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition, please.
>
> The problem of course is that everyone *thinks* they're on the Good
> Side.  Very few people have the fortitude, the courage, the understanding,
> the psychological makeup, and the belief beyond reason it takes to find
> the Absolute Goods in the Universe worth killing or dying for.  I'm not
> certain what they are; I'm just certain, beyond reason, that they're
there.
>
> I'm fairly certain that Good Design is an Absolute Good.  We quote again
> from the prophet Steve in the Book of Jobs, "To design something really
> well, you have to get it.  You have to really grok what it's all about.
> It takes a passionate commitment to really thoroughly understand
> something, chew it up, not just quickly swallow it. Most people don't
> take the time to do that."  Amen, brother Jobs, amen.
>
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> Now recall what I wrote two years ago:
>
> <waybackmachine time="minustwoyears">
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/nov99/0412.html
>
>  ...Life is a terminal illness. The terminally ill go through five stages
> upon realization of their imminent mortality:
>
>     http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/jun98/0215.html
>
> 1. Denial
> 2. Anger
> 3. Bargaining
> 4. Anticipatory Grief
> 5. Acceptance / Resignation
>
> Each day is like a microcosm of a life, with a journey from start to
> finish. You sleep, you wake up, you waste time, you go to sleep and
> start again the next day. Sometimes you get a little closer to
> acceptance, and sometimes you get a little closer to that creative
> pinnacle, but in any case you spend your available time for the chance
> of that happening. You travel from the New Otani to the 360 to the
> Spinning Bar atop the Westin Bonaventure just for the chance to see how
> spectacular a clear winter night can be when the ideas flow free,
> knowing in your heart and your mind and your spirit and your soul, that
> with acceptance comes calm.
>
> </waybackmachine>
>
>
> It's important to understand Anger and Grief, but to have moved on to
> Resignation, where you have the most power to create and to destroy.
> It's the power who possess the power both to create and to destory,
> who have the opportunity to become True Vehicles of Change.
>
> The question you have then, since time is finite and mortality is
> certain, is what's worth living for, and what's worth dying for,
> and use those to motivate the True Vehicles of Change.
>
> Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the
> courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the
> bodies of those people I had to kill today because they pissed me off...
> and also, help me to be careful of the toes I step on today, as they may
> be connected to the ass that I may have to kiss tomorrow.
>
> Prioritize and focus only on What's Most Important.  And once you decide
> that, either get busy living, or get busy dying.
>
> Said Renee Zellweger to Tom Cruise in Jerry Maguire, "I care about the
> job, but mostly I want to be inspired."  Missionaries, not mercenaries.
>
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> My reflection in the mirror is the connection to myself.  And I still
> fundamentally believe in the interconnectedness of all things.
>
> Said Ani DiFranco, "I am a poster girl without a poster.  I am 32
> flavors and then some."  And now, so am I.
>
>
> So here it is codified, the Adam-at-32-flavors philosophy in life:
>
>    1. Culture must be actively created and destroyed.  There is no
> middle ground.  Philosophy is useless, theology is worse.  Religions
> must evolve or die.  Learn the rules of warfare, and be unafraid to
> invoke them when needed.
>
>    2. Do something you are passionate about.  Work in life to get to the
> place in life where you're *only* doing things you are passionate about.
>
>    3. Take the time to think, to read, to write, and to engage in
dialogue.
> Analyze as much as you can, and keep producing newly synthesized thoughts.
> Keep putting things together in ways no one before you has.
>
>    4. Temper the fact that if you don't understand something you should
> keep drilling down and asking questions until you do, with the fact that
> you can't know everything.  Surround yourself with people with
> complementary skillsets.  If someone asks if you're a God, you say,
"YES!!!"
>
>    5. Be patient.  But not too patient.
>
>    6. Draw people in with:
>       A. A great, but not overbearing, sense of humor.
>       B. Good manners.
>       C. Confidence.
>       D. Non-threatening appearance.
>       E. Smiling.
>       F. Eye contact.
>       G. Starting a conversation instead of waiting for someone else to do
> it.
>       H. Knowledge about the subjects at hand.
>       I. Knowing when to let go.
>       J. Not taking yourself too seriously.
>       K. Fearlessness.
>       L. Respect for cultural differences.
>
> We summarize these traits: "Be desireless, be excellent, and be gone."
>
>    7. Bad Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal.
>
> A corollary to BACGAS is: You can get anything done if you don't care
> about who gets the credit for it.  (For the record, it was *me* Adam
> Rifkin who initially came up with this concept. :)
>
>    8. Codify lessons learned.  Hypothesis, Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis.
> Lather, rinse, repeat.  Lessons are repeated until they are learned.
> History repeats itself, but each time the price goes up a little more.
> Those who forget history are condemned to study it.  Yadda, yadda, yadda.
>
>    9. Nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to
say.
>
>   10. Never compromise your integrity.  Get out of dodge if ever asked
> to do so.
>
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> It's quite a world I've constructed here, where to everything there is a
> season: plagiarism, dishonesty, destruction, stealing, and killing all
> have their time and place.  And yet, to absolutely declare any of these
> wrong in all cases is to stop short of understanding the Universal Good
> that transcends them all.
>
> If you've got a question, you ask the eight ball.  Just don't ask the
> eight ball to tell you whether it's being honest in its answers.
>
> I'm not getting older, I'm just getting bitter.
>
>
> Things I learned this year:
>
>    1. My drink of choice is a "Ketel One Martini, Straight Up, 3 Olives".
>
>    2. Inside every older person, there's a younger person, wondering what
> happened.
>
>    3. The wisdom in Homer Simpson's prayer, "Dear Lord, the gods have
> been good to me.  As an offering, I present these milk and cookies.  If
> you wish me to eat them instead, please give me no sign whatsoever...
> thy bidding will be done (munch munch munch)."
>
>    4. When you begin to coast, you know you're on the downgrade.
>
>    5. The price is exorbitant, the pleasure is transitory, and the
> position is ridiculous.  Get over it already.
>
>    6. Life is just a mirror, and what you see out there, you must first
> see inside of you.  Time spent reflecting is time well spent.
>
>    7. Looks aren't important; it's what kind of hair you have on the
> inside that counts.
>
>    8. You can get dressed much quicker in the morning if the night
> before when you are going to bed you take off your trousers and
> underdrawers at once, leaving the latter inside the former.
>
>    9. If the automobile had followed the same development as computer
> software, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per
> gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside.
>
>   10. Siblings quarrel like thieves inside a house, but outside their
> swords leap out in each others' defense.
>
>   11. Underwear should be worn on the inside.
>
>   12. Sometimes when it's raining really hard outside and I'm inside, I
> want to find the guy who invented buildings and give him a big kiss.
> Not a big wet kiss, though, because that would defeat the whole purpose.
>
>   13. Intel inside, idiot outside.  (Is this sticker a warning label or
> what?)
>
>   14. Nightswimming deserves a quiet night.
>
>   15. I sit and drink pennyroyal tea, to still the life that's inside of
me.
>
>   16. In response to a question about Tequila and the worm inside: "The
> only thing I want floating in my beer is my liver."
>
>   17. Inside every small program is a large one struggling to get out.
>
>   18. The object is not to get rich; the object is to build the kind of
> culture where I want to work for the rest of my life.
>
>   19. Cliche though it is, despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a
> cage.
>
>   20. There are degrees of offensiveness, and you can't fix everything.
> Focus only on rewarding the rare and punishing that which keeps you from
> evolving.
>
>   21. Inside us there is some secret.  We are following a narrow ledge
> around a mountain, we are sailing on skeletal eerie craft over the
> buoyant ocean.
>
>   22. Koans are supposed to be triggers which, though they do not contain
> enough information in themselves to impart enlightenment, may possibly
> be sufficient to unlock the mechanisms inside one's mind that lead to
> enlightenment.
>
>   23. Life is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.  It's
> delicious smothered in secret sauce.
>
>   24. Part of the secret of success in life is to eat what you like and
> let the food fight it out inside.
>
>   25. It's not the details that matter.  It's the person typing those
> details in stream of consciousness that matters.  Put another way, it's
> not the shadow, but what's CASTING the shadow that matters.  A person
> has to relax the mind and make it all fuzzy to see through the surface
> and get to the inside, where all the magic happens.
>
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> I just bought a Dell Dimension 4300 Pentium 4 1.6 GHz processor, 512 Meg
> SDRAM at 133 MHz, 2 DIMMs, 80 Gig 7200 RPM Ultra ATA Hard Drive,
> 16x/10x/40x CD-RW, for $1000.  XeNT now has a sister once I get this
> baby outta the box and put Debian Linux on it.  I wonder if we should
> call XeNT's sister "PeST" as an homage to the old days... woo hoo, a
> backup box!
>
> But that's not much of an improvement.  I need more.
>
>
> Areas for Personal Improvement in 2002:
>
>    1. More discipline.  More aerobics: More remembering to Breathe.
>
>    2. More defending of what's right.  The best defense is a Good offense.
>
>    3. More offending of what's wrong.  The best offense is a Good defense.
>
>    4. More internalization of "Be desireless, be excellent, and be gone."
> It applies to so many more facets in life than the movie would have you
> think.
>
>    5. More networking.  We believe in the interconnectedness of all
> things.  Life is about making more connections; be the high valency
> node, and you bring the Universe that much closer to self-awareness.
> Be more creative about the connections; be more bold about level-jumping.
> Crash more parties.  Party crashin' enables spontaneous new connections.
>
>    6. More loyalty and more belief beyond reason.  Time to strengthen my
> character set and become the font of wisdom I always want to typeset
> with personally.
>
>
>    ................................................................
>
>
> >From 32 to 64 is life in the sixth power circle.  Time to learn how to
> live at the next level.  The nice thing about each new echelon is that
> you *can* take what you've learned with you.  The journey is the reward.
>
> Pulling mussels from a shell,
>   Adam
>
>
>
>
> ----
> Adam@4k-Associates.Com
>
> You can look at the menu but you just can't eat
> You can feel the cushions but you can't have a seat
> You can dip your foot in the pool but you can't have a swim
> You can feel the punishment but you can't commit the sin
>
> And you want her, and she wants you
> We want everyone
> And you want her, and she wants you
> No one, no one,
> No one ever is to blame
>
> You can build a mansion but you just can't live in
> You're the fastest runner but you're not allowed to win
> Some break the rules and let you count the cost
> The insecurity is the thing that won't get lost
>
> And you want her, and she wants you
> We want everyone
> And you want her, and she wants you
> No one, no one,
> No one ever is to blame
>
> You can see the summit but you can't reach it
> It's the last piece of the puzzle but you just can't make it fit
> Doctor says you're cured but you still feel the pain
> Aspirations in the clouds but your hopes go down the drain
>
> And you want her, and she wants you
> We want everyone
> And you want her, and she wants you
> No one, no one,
> No one ever is to blame
> No one ever is to blame
> No one ever is to blame
>
>   -- Howard Jones
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork