Re[2]: "united we stand"

Gary Lawrence Murphy
09 Apr 2002 00:55:29 -0400

>>>>> "c" == carey  <> writes:

    c> Back to the general argument between Gary/myself etc: I'll make
    c> the concession that women perhaps might have specific qualities
    c> (or ways of looking at the world) that are different from
    c> typical male qualities (whatever the fuck that is).  

this was not the argument at all, or it wasn't the point I was
pondering.  I was pondering whether the group dynamics of a workplace
were in a significant part dictated by primate behaviour patterns, and
that those patterns distinctly favour "alpha male" patterns as
leaders.  If this social "order" does have a biological basis
(affecting both genders equally) then it becomes much more difficult
to modify the behaviour (for the very reason you can't teach pigs to
push wooden disks with their noses, but you can teach them to drive a

    c> These might indeed be biological.  BUt what is the argument
    c> that says that evolution can't occur?  

Evolution is a _slow_ thing which follows natural laws.  You can try
all you like to will yourself to have 12 fingers so geometry will be
easier to do on your fingers and toes, but it won't happen by
legislation or propaganda.  You _can_, over generations, make tiny,
tiny adjustments, making kids taller, fingers longer, feet flatter,
but ...

I had a wake up call to just how "primate" I was back in about 1988
when I took my kids to see Jane Goodall at the Museum of Natural
History in Ottawa.  It is an experience one does not soon forget.  I'd
been extoling this woman to the kids for about a month before (Jane is
one of my all time heros), but when we arrived, much to my dismay, I
was considered "too old" to attend her lecture and was turned away at
the door.  My two oldest kids, then 5 and 3, were welcomed in and
shown to their seats; I hung around the great hall outside the lecture
theatre to wait for them.

I'd wandered to the far side of the hall; those who know Ottawa will
know the room I mean, the great square one with the staircase down the
middle.  The lecture theatre was now completely across that great
hall, beyond the stairs, at the far side of the museum, and the
lecture I so wanted to hear was further behind at least a two inch oak
door and the lecturer across that room.

  A steel finger of chill icy death ran through my spine.  My hair
  bolted to attention and my nostrils were wide open, and by the time
  I regained any composure, I realized I was looking at that far away
  lecture theatre door.  Between the moment before and that moment
  when I knew I was looking, there had been no thought.  My attention
  had been captured perfectly, instantly.  I looked about, and every
  other parent in the hall was transfixed the same way, like they were
  about to watch a horrible slaughter.

So what happened?  Ms Goodall had been demonstrating to our children
how to mimic a chimpanzee distress call.  Jane speaks Chimp /very/ well.
I may have missed her lecture, but I learned that day that I am not so
far from being primate has I may have deceived myself into believing.

    c> Maybe it hasn't, because women haven't had the ability
    c> societally to show that their 'interior' methods might just
    c> work.

That assertion would need an observation; lots of women have had the
opportunity, Helen Gurley Brown not being the only one, and yet not
one of them is the captain of Enron, although Thatcher did become PM
of England and Indira the President of India.  In all three cases,
though, it was apparently more charisma than technique because they
did not leave an empire: Their worlds collapsed as soon as the
charismatic leader left.

    c> ...  Sex comes to mind as a purely, animal urge, yet, it
    c> has a pretty good history of being controlled.  

Have you ever been to Amsterdam?  Or Hamburg?  Or NYC?  Or Vancouver?...

Gary Lawrence Murphy <> TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Innovations Through Open Source Systems:
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)