I-P: Capitalism vrs. commies

John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:07:53 -0800


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It would be more accurate to say that Marx expected industrialization and
capitalism first.  He was hardly the determinist most think of him.

As for the centralized control of markets, that was clearly implicit based
upon why he thought capitalism would fail.  He simply refused to provide a
‘cookbook’.  But the fact that Marx retained ‘plausible deniability’ does
not excuse him from the nightmare that came when people tried to place his
ideas in practice.  You must also separate Marx the man from Marx the
writer.  His behavior clearly foreshadowed the tyranny that came to pass.

Thomas Sowell’s “Marxism” is a rather concise tour through what Marx wrote.

-----Original Message-----
From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of Ian Welsh
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:24 AM
To: fork@xent.com
Subject: Re: I-P: Capitalism vrs. commies


Much as the debate is tedious and I don't want to open up a can of worms
this thread demands the simple comment that centralized control of markets
and politics is not what Marx and Engels called for and that according to
the central tenets of Marxism itself the Soviet Union and China and Cuba
were not and never could be communist nations because you must go through
industrialization and capitalism first.  And none of them did.
The torturers of the Spanish inquisition might have called themselves
Christian but Jesus would not have recognized them.  Nor would Marx have
recognized Stalin as a true Marxist.
(Ironic Marx quote: "I am not a marxist.")
P.S. And yes, Marxism is flawed, for various reasons, but that doesn't
change the facts above.


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It=
 would
be more accurate to say that Marx expected industrialization and =
capitalism
first.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>He was hardly the
determinist most think of him.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>As=
 for the
centralized control of markets, that was clearly implicit based upon why =
he
thought capitalism would fail.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</span>He
simply refused to provide a &#8216;cookbook&#8217;.<span =
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;
</span>But the fact that Marx retained &#8216;plausible =
deniability&#8217; does not excuse
him from the nightmare that came when people tried to place his ideas in
practice.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>You must also =
separate Marx
the man from Marx the writer.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</span>His
behavior clearly foreshadowed the tyranny that came to =
pass.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th=
omas
Sowell&#8217;s &#8220;Marxism&#8221; is a rather concise tour through =
what Marx wrote.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> fork-admin@xent.com
[mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Ian
Welsh<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, March 08, =
2002 2:24
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> fork@xent.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: I-P: =
Capitalism vrs.
commies</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times =
New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Much as the debate is tedious and =
I don't
want to open up&nbsp;a can of worms this thread demands the simple =
comment that
centralized control of markets and politics is not what Marx and Engels =
called
for and that according to the central tenets of Marxism itself the =
Soviet Union
and China and Cuba were not and never could be communist nations because =
you
must go through industrialization and capitalism first.&nbsp; And none =
of them
did.&nbsp; </span></font><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times =
New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The torturers of the Spanish =
inquisition
might have called themselves Christian but Jesus would not have =
recognized
them.&nbsp; Nor would Marx have recognized Stalin as a true =
Marxist.</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times =
New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>(Ironic Marx quote: &quot;I am =
not a
marxist.&quot;)</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times =
New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>P.S. And yes, Marxism is flawed, =
for
various reasons, but that doesn't change the facts =
above.</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

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