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From carey@tstonramp.com Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:25:22 -0700
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:25:22 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
so someone finally put up a multitranslator.
Much telephone fun can be had...
As an example:
'Wow that was a fun song!' translated 10 times over, turns to:
Defective the healthful rent, this song of the recovery was one!
YES. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/
this is just much babel translation fun.
Original English Text:
Hey Rohit look!
Translated to French:
Hé regard de Rohit!
Translated back to English:
Hé glance of Rohit!
Translated to German:
Hé flüchtiger Blick von Rohit!
Translated back to English:
Hé volatile view of Rohit!
Translated to Italian:
Vista volatile di Hé di Rohit!
Translated back to English:
Sight flown them of Hé di Rohit!
Translated to Portuguese:
Vista voada lhes de Hé di Rohit!
Translated back to English:
Flied sight them of Hé di Rohit!
Translated to Spanish:
¡Flied los avista de Hé di Rohit!
Translated back to English:
Flied sights of Hé I gave them Rohit!
---------------------------------------
Indeed. Very interesting that 'Bit bitch' translates to 'female of
little' ... We can thank the german translation for that one, which
seems to automatically equate the perjorative with female.
Ah Well.
--
Best regards,
carey mailto:carey@tstonramp.com
From ejw@cse.ucsc.edu Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:53:11 -0700
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:53:11 -0700
From: Jim Whitehead ejw@cse.ucsc.edu
Subject: mostrimi il piccolo (was: 10x the translation)
> 'Wow that was a fun song!' translated 10 times over, turns to:
> Defective the healthful rent, this song of the recovery was one!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Original English Text:
show me the bits
Translated to French:
montrez-moi le peu
Translated back to English:
show me the little
Translated to German:
zeigen Sie mir das wenig
Translated back to English:
show me the little
Translated to Italian:
mostrimi il piccolo
Translated back to English:
mostrimi the small
Translated to Portuguese:
mostrimi o pequeno
Translated back to English:
mostrimi the small one
Translated to Spanish:
mostrimi el pequeño
Translated back to English:
mostrimi the small one
From elias@cse.ucsc.edu Wed, 01 May 2002 00:59:55 -0700
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 00:59:55 -0700
From: Elias Sinderson elias@cse.ucsc.edu
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
Interesting, very interesting. I played around with this for a bit and
noticed that some phrases make it through the translations unmunged,
like a fixed point in an iterative system of equations. This is, after
all what we're dealing with, isn't it? In the following the first line
is what I entered and the following are successive iterations of the
process on the last output produced. Some phrases settle to a fixed
point really quickly:
Only the good die young
Only good the new people of the table
Only good the new people of the table
Others take a little longer:
The ceremony will take place in the auditorium
The ceremony happens in the zone
The ceremony introduces in the zone
The gifts of the ceremony in the zone
Gifts of the ceremony in the zone
Gifts of the ceremony in the zone
While others seemingly diverge:
Darling, please close the window
The person or the thing of the favorite, closes themselves requests the
window
the person or the thing of the person of the favorite or the thing
request to the window surrounds
the person or the thing of the person of the person of the favorite or
the thing or the demand for the thing to the window surround
the person or the thing of the person of the person of the person of the
favorite or the thing or the thing or the demand for the thing to the
window surround
etc.
This makes me wonder if one can find stable periodic cycles of length
n>1... Is there a fractal structure lurking somewhere?
How much do you want for the bit bitch?
how much you when desider for feminine little?
how much he if more when feminine desider for small?
how much he therefore if woman of desider for small?
quant0 he therefore if woman more when desider for small?
quant0 he therefore if woman more if more when desider for small?
failure?
Would you like fries with that?
They appreciate the star of the inginocchiamento with this?
They consider the inginocchiamento of the star with this?
They consider the inginocchiamento of the star with this?
Elias
I spend too much time reading FoRK.
I too much passes the cramp of the measured value of the time.
Operations also the cramp of the measured value of the time.
Companies also the cramp of the measured value of the time.
Company also the cramp of the measured value of the time.
Company also the cramp of the measured value of the time.
carey wrote:
> so someone finally put up a multitranslator.
>
> Much telephone fun can be had...
>
> As an example:
>
> 'Wow that was a fun song!' translated 10 times over, turns to:
> Defective the healthful rent, this song of the recovery was one!
>
> YES. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/
>
> this is just much babel translation fun.
>
> Original English Text:
> Hey Rohit look!
>
> Translated to French:
> Hé regard de Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Hé glance of Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to German:
> Hé flüchtiger Blick von Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Hé volatile view of Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to Italian:
> Vista volatile di Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Sight flown them of Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to Portuguese:
> Vista voada lhes de Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Flied sight them of Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to Spanish:
> ¡Flied los avista de Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Flied sights of Hé I gave them Rohit!
> ---------------------------------------
>
> Indeed. Very interesting that 'Bit bitch' translates to 'female of
> little' ... We can thank the german translation for that one, which
> seems to automatically equate the perjorative with female.
>
> Ah Well.
>
>
>
>
From grlygrl201@aol.com Wed, 01 May 2002 07:28:50 -0400
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 07:28:50 -0400
From: grlygrl201@aol.com grlygrl201@aol.com
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
In a message dated Wed, 1 May 2002 2:27:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carey writes:
>so someone finally put up a multitranslator.
>
>Much telephone fun can be had...
>
>As an example:
>
>'Wow that was a fun song!' translated 10 times over, turns to:
>Defective the healthful rent, this song of the recovery was one!
>
>YES. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/
>
similar to the parlor game "gossip"?
Original English Text:
similar to the parlor game "gossip"?
Translated to French:
semblable au "gossip" de jeu de salon;?
Translated back to English:
similar to the "gossip" of play of show;?
Translated to German:
ähnlich dem "gossip" des Spiels des Erscheinens;?
Translated back to English:
similarly "gossip" the play of the appearance;?
Translated to Italian:
similmente "gossip" il gioco dell'apparenza;?
Translated back to English:
similarly "gossip" the game of the appearance;?
Translated to Portuguese:
similarmente "gossip" o jogo da aparência;?
Translated back to English:
similarly "gossip" the game of the appearance;?
Translated to Spanish:
¿semejantemente "gossip" el juego del aspecto;?
Translated back to English:
similar "gossip" the game of the aspect;?
(hmmmmm, it's DISsimilar . . .)
From grlygrl201@aol.com Wed, 01 May 2002 07:33:08 -0400
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 07:33:08 -0400
From: grlygrl201@aol.com grlygrl201@aol.com
Subject: We Didn't Inhale
USA Today leads with oil executives' congressional testimony
yesterday in which they denied that they tried to manipulate the
market to drive gas prices up last summer, but did admit that
they kicked the idea around: "The options were presented...and
rejected," said one exec.
Eric Umansky, today's papers, Slate
compliments of,
geege
From ThosStew@aol.com Wed, 1 May 2002 09:01:26 EDT
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 09:01:26 EDT
From: ThosStew@aol.com ThosStew@aol.com
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
In a message dated 5/1/2002 2:27:53 AM, carey@tstonramp.com writes:
>We can thank the german translation for that one, which
>
>seems to automatically equate the perjorative with female.
and that, babelized, produces "Ringraziare of the tin the German translation
for this, that one he we look like rifle automatic to register perjorative
with the woman." Which means something like "if a tin-pot German tried to
put a ring through Carey's nose, the bit bitch would shove an Uzi up his
whazoozi and say 'I have a pejoriative opinion of you--wanna make something
of it?'"
T
From garym@canada.com 01 May 2002 10:20:26 -0400
Date: 01 May 2002 10:20:26 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy garym@canada.com
Subject: Won't be runnin' from the spam when I'm gone
I love it online. Every time I think I've heard and seen just about
everything, a Loving Pup comes along. This is just too weird
... especially if they've found a way to make money online: Spam
them from beyond the grave!
http://timelessmail.com/
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Innovations Through Open Source Systems: http://www.teledyn.com
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
From jjddfftt@fm365.com Wed, 1 May 2002 22:30:01
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:30:01
From: ÄãµÄÒ»¸öÅóÓÑ jjddfftt@fm365.com
Subject: ÄãÏÖÔÚ¹ýµÃ»¹ºÃÂð£¿ÅóÓÑ
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----------------------------------------------------
INFORMATION
This message has been sent using a trial-run version
of the TSmtpRelayServer Delphi Component.
----------------------------------------------------
From newhgh@excite.com Wed, 1 May 2002 20:51:26 +0800
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 20:51:26 +0800
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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 00:07:03
From: Bill Bellows billbellows@hotmail.com
Subject: 2000 Year old bread recipe actually helps you lose weight!
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From bill@wstoddard.com Wed, 1 May 2002 11:34:10 -0400
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 11:34:10 -0400
From: Bill Stoddard bill@wstoddard.com
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
"Are you Sarah Conner?"
Original English Text:
I'll be back
Translated to French:
Je serai de retour
Translated back to English:
I will be back
Translated to German:
Ich bin zurück
Translated back to English:
I am back
Translated to Italian:
Sono indietro
Translated back to English:
They are behind
Translated to Portuguese:
Estão atrás
Translated back to English:
They are behind
Translated to Spanish:
Están detrás
Translated back to English:
They are behind
----- Original Message -----
From: "carey"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:25 AM
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
> so someone finally put up a multitranslator.
>
> Much telephone fun can be had...
>
> As an example:
>
> 'Wow that was a fun song!' translated 10 times over, turns to:
> Defective the healthful rent, this song of the recovery was one!
>
> YES. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/
>
> this is just much babel translation fun.
>
> Original English Text:
> Hey Rohit look!
>
> Translated to French:
> Hé regard de Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Hé glance of Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to German:
> Hé flüchtiger Blick von Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Hé volatile view of Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to Italian:
> Vista volatile di Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Sight flown them of Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to Portuguese:
> Vista voada lhes de Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Flied sight them of Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated to Spanish:
> ¡Flied los avista de Hé di Rohit!
>
>
>
> Translated back to English:
> Flied sights of Hé I gave them Rohit!
> ---------------------------------------
>
> Indeed. Very interesting that 'Bit bitch' translates to 'female of
> little' ... We can thank the german translation for that one, which
> seems to automatically equate the perjorative with female.
>
> Ah Well.
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> carey mailto:carey@tstonramp.com
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From paul@prescod.net Wed, 01 May 2002 09:49:50 -0700
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 09:49:50 -0700
From: Paul Prescod paul@prescod.net
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
carey wrote:
>
> so someone finally put up a multitranslator.
It might be interesting if you lined up ten professional translators and
had them do the same.
Paul Prescod
From crawdad@fnal.gov Wed, 01 May 2002 12:05:00 -0500
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 12:05:00 -0500
From: Matt Crawford crawdad@fnal.gov
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
You could also try guessing at an inverse function. What familiar
phrase of yore led to this output?
the bat, papa, eight with the team of employees
> >so someone finally put up a multitranslator.
> >Much telephone fun can be had...
> >
> >As an example:
> >'Wow that was a fun song!' translated 10 times over, turns to:
> >Defective the healthful rent, this song of the recovery was one!
> >
> >YES. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/
From DavidA@ActiveState.com Wed, 01 May 2002 10:26:40 -0700
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:26:40 -0700
From: David Ascher DavidA@ActiveState.com
Subject: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
carey wrote:
>Otherwise known as 'the extremes of body modification'
>
>http://www.bmezine.com/people/addsub/
>
>or alternatively: Just plain wrong.
>
I assume people noted the penultimate line on that page...
From RickK23919@onebox.com Wed, 1 May 2002 22:05:41 -0500
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:05:41 -0500
From: RickK23919@onebox.com RickK23919@onebox.com
Subject: Your account is overdue 3919
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********************************************************
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=====================================================================
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=====================================================================
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============
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=========================================================
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=======================================
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THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (a half
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Your total income in this example is:
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4..... $50,000 +
5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00
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-----------------------------------------------------------
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
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===================================================
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We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD
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ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.
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=============================================================
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=============================================================
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*************************************************
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Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU
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THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved
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IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF
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____________________________________________________
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it
in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you
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So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
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==================== MORE TESTIMONIALS======================
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===============================================================
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================================================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later
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================================================================
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Life is beautiful, Thanks to internet''.
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================================================================
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
YOUR ROAD TO GENERATING EXTRA INCOME!
================================================================
Disclaimer:
The sender or participants of this marketing program cannot
verify any monetary claims made in this document, nor do they
assume responsibility for same. As with any business you have
the risk of loss. No "guarantee" can be made as to the amount
of money you will make, or the benefits you may receive with
this program. This is NOT a Chain Letter. We advertise the
sale of information and a legal business of reselling that
information. If you have any doubts, please consult your
attorney.
==========================================================
BEST OF LUCK IN YOUR NEW BUSINESS VENTURE!!
3919
From jeff@k2.com Thu, 2 May 2002 00:55:54 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 00:55:54 -0400
From: Jeffrey Kay jeff@k2.com
Subject: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
Well, so much for getting any sleep tonight. Thanks for sharing ...
-- jeffrey kay
weblog
"first get your facts, then you can distort them at your leisure" -- mark twain
"golf is an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle" -- sports
illustrated
"if A equals success, then the formula is A equals X plus Y plus Z. X is work. Y is play.
Z is keep your mouth shut." -- albert einstein
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of David
> Ascher
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:27 PM
> To: carey
> Cc: fork@xent.com
> Subject: Re: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
>
>
> carey wrote:
>
> >Otherwise known as 'the extremes of body modification'
> >
> >http://www.bmezine.com/people/addsub/
> >
> >or alternatively: Just plain wrong.
> >
> I assume people noted the penultimate line on that page...
>
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
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From Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com Thu, 2 May 2002 11:44:05 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:44:05 -0400
From: Meltsner, Kenneth Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com
Subject: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
Body modification is going mainstream, or at least as mainstream as motorcycle and tatoo mags -- I just saw a new glossy magazine at Barnes and Noble covering the BM scene. I didn't want to look inside to see the publisher, but it looked like it was produced by one of the cycle/tatoo magazine publishers. Since I now see tatoos on random teenage girls and boys with too much money and too little sense, this is probably a sign of impending acceptance for the milder forms of modification/mutilations.
Lovely young woman on the cover with lots of sharp, spiky things sticking out of her. I don't believe that the cover story on implants was concerned with the usual female bust enlargement sort.
Ken
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 11:48:45 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:48:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Meltsner, Kenneth wrote:
--]Body modification is going mainstream
Going?
Its jumped the shark about 2 years ago.
-tom
From harley@argote.ch Thu, 2 May 2002 17:49:53 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 17:49:53 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Le Pen...
Yesterday there were protest marches "for" and "against" the Front
National. The FN always holds a march on the 1st of May and yesterday
were promising a show of strength with 60000 to 100000 people, bussing
them in from all over France for a mega-march in Paris. However
according to the police, there between 8000 and 10000 of them.
Meanwhile anti-FN voices called for about 400 marches all over France,
eclipsing the traditional workers parades. Collected from some
sources, using the low figures given by the cops rather than the
inflated ones given by the organisers...
400000 Paris
50000 Lyon
50000 Grenoble
45000 Toulouse
38000 Bordeaux
35000 Rennes
30000 Marseille
30000 Lille
25000 Nancy
20000 Nantes
15000 Paris
15000 Strasbourg
14000 Dijon
14000 Rouen
14000 Saint-Nazaire
13000 Caen
11000 Brest
10000 Chambéry
10000 Tours
...
Total: approximately 1.2 or 1.3 million.
- Rob
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 11:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Le Pen...
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]Total: approximately 1.2 or 1.3 million.
The Million Frog March?
France hasnt seen this much enthusiasn since the nazis moved into town and
the population cracnked up productivity.
-tom
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 09:04:31 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:04:31 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
Tom wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Meltsner, Kenneth wrote:
>
> --]Body modification is going mainstream
>
> Going?
Tom,
You may have to accept that you are not a good judge of what is
mainstream :-)
- Joe (I'm probably not either)
--
"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
Summer, salt and wine
For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
A velvet bed of nails"
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 12:06:34 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 12:06:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
--]You may have to accept that you are not a good judge of what is
--]mainstream :-)
Oh come on, I got a 7 year old and tons of inlaws now. I have a clear view
on the mainstream like I have never thought I would. Belive me, mainstream
I know.
Pirecing has jumped the shark. Kids are getting them along with thier
NSynch cds. Parents consider tongue, lip and eyebrow piercing as trend de
jour. Tatoos are so freaking over the shark fin its been years since it
can raise anything more than a mild "wow". Piercing and Tats are as out
there as BKlounges and Walmart.
From eugen@leitl.org Thu, 2 May 2002 19:10:43 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:10:43 +0200 (CEST)
From: Eugen Leitl eugen@leitl.org
Subject: [wta-talk] Economic futures: Stock market no panacea
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 12:40:00 -0400
From: "Hughes, James"
Reply-To: wta-talk@yahoogroups.com
To: "Wta-Talk (E-mail)"
Subject: [wta-talk] Economic futures: Stock market no panacea
New report out. Full report can be downloaded
at http://epinet.org without charge. Also look for the one
we had a week ago on income inequality. -- mbs
Middle Americans' Retirement Wealth Fell as Stock Market Soared, New Study
Reveals Boom a Retirement Bust for All but the Richest; Next Retirees More
Likely than Predecessors to Live in Poverty
A groundbreaking new study holds troubling news for millions of Americans
now nearing retirement age. Retirement Insecurity: The Income Shortfalls
Awaiting the Soon-to-Retire shows that despite the recent unprecedented
stock market boom and rapid proliferation of 401(k) retirement plans,
typical Americans now facing retirement will have to tighten their belts
harder than previous retirees. More than 40% of households headed by someone
between the ages of 47 and 64 will not be able to replace even half of their
pre-retirement income once they stop working. Nearly 20% will have
retirement income below the poverty line.
Retirement Insecurity, by New York University economist and wealth expert
Edward N. Wolff and published today by the Economic Policy Institute, uses
the most recent data to examine changes in Americans' retirement wealth
during the 1980s and '90s and finds that more retired Americans will have
less to live on.
"In terms of retirement investment, what should have been the best of times
turns into something closer to the worst of times when you look closely at
what really happened to retirement wealth," explained Wolff. "In 1998, every
group of near-retirees except those at the very top lost ground compared
with their counterparts in 1983. The contraction of traditional defined
benefit pension plans and their replacement by defined contribution plans
appears to have helped rich, older Americans but hurt a large group of
lower-income Americans."
Senator Jon Corzine, who took part in the news conference releasing the
study, said, "As this study demonstrates, millions of Americans are
ill-prepared for retirement. The study shows that America's seniors cannot
afford the deep cuts in guaranteed Social Security benefits that President
Bush's Social Security commission has proposed."
"By focusing only on Social Security, we've been trying to fix the part of
the retirement system that's not broken," said EPI President Jeff Faux. "The
way we now go about providing for retirement just isn't working for middle-
and low-income Americans. It's time to stop talking about shifting Social
Security money to private accounts and start talking about how we can make
sure that working Americans will have adequate pensions that will enable
them to live decently in retirement."
The study's specific findings include:
Living on less than half: Between 1989 and 1998, the share of households
whose projected retirement income is less than half of their pre-retirement
income rose sharply from a 29.9% share to 42.5%.
Worse news for African Americans and Hispanics: Among these households, the
percentage that will have to live on less than half of their pre-retirement
income shot up even higher, to 52.7% in 1998.
The shrinking middle: For households at the median, retirement wealth
declined by 11% between 1983 and 1998.
Growing likelihood of poverty: The share of households facing the prospect
of retirement income below the poverty line grew from 17.2% in 1989 to 18.5%
in 1998.
Richest are the only winners: Only the very richest pre-retirees - those
with net worth of $1 million and above - saw this wealth increasing between
1983 and 1998. All other wealth classes, including those with net worth
between $500,000 and $999,999 are now in a weaker position heading toward
retirement than their predecessors were in 1983.
Losing ground: For all groups of pre-retirees with combined retirement
wealth of $999,999 or less, that wealth has shrunk between 11% and 32% since
1983.
Pension coverage stagnant: The share of near-retirement households with any
pension coverage - whether traditional pension plans or defined contribution
plans like 401(k)s - remained almost unchanged from 1983 to 1998, growing
just 3.5 points to 73.7% coverage in 1998.
Social Security coverage expanded: The single bright spot for the
one-quarter of Americans without private pension coverage of any kind is
that Social Security coverage became virtually universal, rising from 82.4%
in 1983 to 98.4% in 1998.
The downward trend in retirement adequacy for Americans in the middle and
below has gone unnoticed until now because of a tendency to look at average
rather than median retirement wealth. While the median has been dropping,
the average has been rising - fueled by a growing gap between the rich and
the middle. Thus, the rising average provides a false picture that fails to
reflect the growing unequal distribution of retirement wealth.
"The report reminds us that what is a serious problem for most Americans is
a potential crisis for African Americans. Private pension wealth for African
American households stands at 45 percent of whites, while African American
social security wealth stands at 59 percent of whites, for people 47 years
and older. The high value of social security wealth compared to the income
of African Americans, which is 51 percent of white income for people 47
years and older, confirms the progressive job that social security does,
compared to the disparity in private pensions. So, to help African Americans
close the wealth gap, we must work on disparities in private pensions," said
William Spriggs, an economist who is the Director of the National Urban
League Institute for Opportunity and Equality.
"The huge growth in wealth for the very wealthy has, until this study,
masked what has really been happening to retirement nest eggs for most
Americans," said Christian Weller, an EPI economist who studies retirement
and Social Security. "We need to take a fresh look at what we are doing to
strengthen and expand pension coverage or millions of Americans will pay the
price for our neglect."
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From johnhall@evergo.net Thu, 2 May 2002 10:49:07 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 10:49:07 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: [wta-talk] Economic futures: Stock market no panacea
Well, I tend to trust EPI less than I can throw them. But I'll mention
something tangential, which I only learned about recently. Namely, a
reason why defined benefit plans have plummeted and the companies have
gone to defined contribution.
In the heyday of defined benefit plans, companies over-funded their
plans if they could possibly do so. The better the plan was run the
more likely it was to be over-funded. You didn't have to pay taxes on
those excess contributions, and if they company *really* got in trouble
you could cancel the plan, 'freeze' everyone at their current level of
benefits, and take the excess back.
Significantly, in 'group' plans like some union based plans the
companies contributions were irrevocable. Companies did not over-fund
those plans.
Now, it happens that some companies did get in trouble, especially in
the late 70s and early 80s. Some of those plans were canceled.
Congress decided to add a very heavy excess tax on companies canceling
their plans and withdrawing the excess contributions. This was to
protect workers, of course. It was to discourage companies from
canceling their plans by removing the 'reward' for doing so.
But what they basically did is turn all contributions into irrevocable
contributions and undermine any reason for a company to have a plan in
the first place.
So what do you do as a Board Member with a nice over-funded plan when
they pass this law? First, you stop funding the plan entirely until
your 'over-funded' amount drops to zero. Then you convert it to a
defined contribution plan, which really screws over people about half
through their careers.
I have to admit I probably wouldn't have foreseen that consequence if
I'd been asked about the change by Congress. Unintended consequences
can be difficult to spot, even if you are looking for them.
Back to EPI's study -- they mention the decline in defined pensions. I
wonder how much of what they are seeing is the result of the decline in
defined pensions alone?
I might be able to find a web based reference if someone really wanted
it.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Eugen
> Leitl
>
> Retirement Insecurity, by New York University economist and wealth
expert
> Edward N. Wolff and published today by the Economic Policy Institute,
uses
> the most recent data to examine changes in Americans' retirement
wealth
> during the 1980s and '90s and finds that more retired Americans will
have
> less to live on.
From Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com Thu, 2 May 2002 13:52:10 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 13:52:10 -0400
From: Meltsner, Kenneth Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
"Jumping the shark" was originally a media critic term. It referred to an episode of Happy Days in which Fonzie was supposed to jump his motorcycle over a shark tank, and the show ended up with an ending that did not include Fonzie chewed up and eventually digested. The original meme was that this was the pivotal moment when the show lost all credibility, that it became clear that the show's producers had given up trying to work within the fictional universe that they had created.
Similar moments for other shows have been defined -- e.g. the infamous shower scene in Dallas -- and the term could also be used for other media. For me, "Star Wars Episode I" definitely jumped the shark, while other may feel that the introduction of the Ewoks in RotJ was the beginning of the end for that saga. Other email lists have drifted into this morass, of course.
I'm not sure when the phrase came to mean something like "a significant transition," or whether the new meaning is used outside of FoRK.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom [mailto:tomwhore@slack.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:07 AM
To: Joseph S. Barrera III
Cc: fork@xent.com
Subject: Re: Adam thinks I should fork this ...
...
Pirecing has jumped the shark.
...
From gojomo@usa.net Thu, 2 May 2002 13:03:14 -0500
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 13:03:14 -0500
From: Gordon Mohr gojomo@usa.net
Subject: Le Pen...
I suspect these protests might actually boost Le Pen's vote
total, above what he would have received had the protesters
stayed home and simply voted against him.
Why?
These people are not protesting a systemic failure, an abuse
of power, electoral corruption, or even an injustice.
They're just protesting a man, his party, and their ideas.
The protesters don't have a specific grievance that needs
correcting, against anyone except their fellow voters. So
they're simply trying to convince -- and perhaps subtextually
intimidate/shame -- people into opposing Le Pen. The
protesters' message is not: "Reform! Reform! Reform!"
Rather, it is: "Conform! Conform! Conform!"
This atmosphere may create the desired effect in public --
with even Le Pen sympathizers publically distancing themselves
from him, to avoid the stares and yells -- but when it comes
time to cast a secret ballot, the pent-up resentment at being
unable to express certain views could lead to more Le Pen votes,
e.g.: voters thinking, "I don't completely agree with him, and
I even marching in the anti-LePen rally because last week because
everyone was doing it, but *someone* has to say these things,
and this is my only chance to express my discontent."
- Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Harley"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Le Pen...
> Yesterday there were protest marches "for" and "against" the Front
> National. The FN always holds a march on the 1st of May and yesterday
> were promising a show of strength with 60000 to 100000 people, bussing
> them in from all over France for a mega-march in Paris. However
> according to the police, there between 8000 and 10000 of them.
> Meanwhile anti-FN voices called for about 400 marches all over France,
> eclipsing the traditional workers parades. Collected from some
> sources, using the low figures given by the cops rather than the
> inflated ones given by the organisers...
>
> 400000 Paris
> 50000 Lyon
> 50000 Grenoble
> 45000 Toulouse
> 38000 Bordeaux
> 35000 Rennes
> 30000 Marseille
> 30000 Lille
> 25000 Nancy
> 20000 Nantes
> 15000 Paris
> 15000 Strasbourg
> 14000 Dijon
> 14000 Rouen
> 14000 Saint-Nazaire
> 13000 Caen
> 11000 Brest
> 10000 Chambéry
> 10000 Tours
> ...
>
> Total: approximately 1.2 or 1.3 million.
>
> - Rob
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 11:10:49 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:10:49 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Meltsner, Kenneth wrote:
> other may feel that the introduction of the Ewoks
> in RotJ was the beginning of the end for that saga.
I vote for the Ewok theory.
Kill the little fuckers! Kill 'em all!
- Joe
"Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury...
"I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and Gentlemen,
this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookie from the planet Kashyyyk, but
Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it, that does not
make sense. Why would a wookie, an eight foot tall wookie, want to live
on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!
But more importantly you have to ask yourself, what does this have to
do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and Gentlemen it has nothing to do
with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me, I'm a lawyer,
defending a major Union society, and I'm talking about Chewbacca. Does
that make sense? Ladies and Gentlemen, I am not making any sense. None
of this makes sense. And so you have to remember when you're in that
jury room deliberating and conjugating the emancipation proclamation,
does it make sense? No! Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury, it
does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit."
"The defense rests."
--
"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
Summer, salt and wine
For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
A velvet bed of nails"
From harley@argote.ch Thu, 2 May 2002 20:09:11 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:09:11 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Le Pen...
Mr. Thomas Whore, Esq. wrote:
>The Million Frog March?
>France hasnt seen this much enthusiasn since the nazis moved into town and
>the population cracnked up productivity.
Wrong. France sees large crowds marching, even relative to the 400000
in Paris yesterday, every few years:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* 26 August 1944:
Between 1 and 2 million on the Champs-Élysees, the day after Paris was
freed.
* 28 May 1958
Between 200 K and 300 K from Nation to République, against De Gaulle.
* 13 February 1962
Hundreds of thousands from Nation to République, against the OAS (some
guys who wanted Algeria to remain a colony).
* 13 May 1968:
Close to 1 millon from Nation to Republique.
* 30 May 1968:
About 800 K on the Champs-Elysées supporting De Gaulle.
* 4 March 1972:
Many (conflicting reports) in support of a maoist worker killed by
Renault security men.
* 7 Octobre 1980:
About 200 K from Nation to République after an attack on a synagogue.
* 24 June 1984:
About 850 K in Paris against an educational reform.
* 4 December 1986:
About 200 K against a university reform.
* 14 May 1990:
About 200 K from République to Bastille after a Jewish cemetery was
violated.
* 16 January 1994:
About 260 K against a reform of school funding.
* 12 July 1998:
More than a million on the Champs-Elysées to celebrate France's
victory in the World Cup.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me tie this in with the "Ugly Europeans" article...
>They may not be terrorists and murderers, but their separatist agenda
>is familiar: a belief that Christians and Muslims cannot commingle;
>that the infidel invaders must be expelled to ensure their countries'
>self-preservation; and a backward-looking celebration of an empire
>long, long gone.
Actually no one, even the ugly far-right groups, looks back to the
empires, apart from a couple of ancient Britons. World War II was
sixty-odd years ago. Sixty-odd years ago Britain and France had large
empires. Why do you (and others) feel the need to dredge up remarks
about collaboration under the Vichy régime or similar at every
possible opportunity when people mention France? Don't you realise
that such refrains are just as old and tired as those of some
neanderthals pining for the empire?
Also:
>Ugly Europeans are adamantly opposed to multicultural, multiethnic
>societies [...] They're fiercely opposed to the European Union, which
>they see as leveling the distinctions among the Continent's distinct
>nations. And most assail America for its globalizing culture and its
>multiethnic society.
Yes, they assail America for its globalizing culture. They, and
others, are opposed to, or unconfortable with, the widespread
anglicization of culture, and tend to pick out the US as a
fountainhead of anglo culture.
However nobody assails America for its multicultural, multiethnic
society. Europe has far more cultural diversity than the US. Talk
about getting a sense of proportion. In the US you can drive a
thousand kilometres and you find the same culture, the same language,
the same media spouting the same news, the same songs on the radio,
the same shops selling the same goods with the same brands... Even
between East and West coasts, the sameness is depressing. Heck in all
of North America, you have to go the Quebec to find something a little
different, or Mexico for a real change of scenery. Whereas Europe has
at least a dozen very different native cultures, plus many "imported"
ones.
Europe is highly multiethnic, whether the "ugly" groups like it or
not. In my opinion ethnic groups are better integrated here than in
the US. We don't have ghettos or slums with 50% hispanics or
whatever. They just dont exist. Blacks in Europe have never had
anything like the trouble they have had in the US. Integration
problems here are far less trouble than over there, but they get a
much more vociferous treatment from politicians, ugly or otherwise.
Likewise, security and insecurity are a big issue, but to get a sense
of proportion... there are something like 25000 homicides in the US
each year, versus a few hundred in France or the UK. People worry a
lot and shout loudly at issues that are relatively minor compared to
elsewhere.
To pick a topical news item, Tony Blair has apparently decided to stop
child benefits to parents of out-of-control youths and stop housing
benefits to anti-social tenants. That has caused controversy in the UK.
In the US, it probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow. In the France, no
politician in his right mind would dream of such a scheme, apart from
the extreme right-wing "ugly" ones, since among those most affected
would be ethnic minorities.
Rob.
.-. .-.
/ \ .-. .-. / \
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
\ / `-' `-' \ /
`-' `-'
From grlygrl201@aol.com Thu, 2 May 2002 11:11:24 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:11:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: grlygrl201@aol.com grlygrl201@aol.com
Subject: Infoworld Article: Bush official delivers wake-up call to IT industry
This InfoWorld (http://www.infoworld.com) article has been sent to you by grlygrl201@aol.com
Message from sender:
== worth a scan.
your pal,
geege
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bush official delivers wake-up call to IT industry
By Michael Vizard
May 02, 2002 05:43 AM
SALT LAKE CITY -- A senior official in the U.S. Department of Commerce called upon the IT industry to significantly raise its game when it comes to influencing public policy in order to avert having its interests subverted by more politically savvy industries such as the telecommunications sector and media content providers.
For the rest of the article, go to:
http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/05/02/020502hngovernment.xml
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright (c) 2002 InfoWorld Media Group Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole Or in part in Any form Or medium without express written permission of InfoWorld Is prohibited.
From carkenbe@adobe.com Thu, 2 May 2002 11:23:57 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:23:57 -0700
From: chris arkenberg carkenbe@adobe.com
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Ah the infamous Chewbacca Defense....
You rule, Joe.
At 11:10 AM -0700 5/2/02, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
>Meltsner, Kenneth wrote:
>>other may feel that the introduction of the Ewoks
> > in RotJ was the beginning of the end for that saga.
>
>I vote for the Ewok theory.
>Kill the little fuckers! Kill 'em all!
>
>- Joe
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury...
>
>"I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and Gentlemen,
> this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookie from the planet Kashyyyk, but
> Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it, that does not
> make sense. Why would a wookie, an eight foot tall wookie, want to live
> on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!
> But more importantly you have to ask yourself, what does this have to
> do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and Gentlemen it has nothing to do
> with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me, I'm a lawyer,
> defending a major Union society, and I'm talking about Chewbacca. Does
> that make sense? Ladies and Gentlemen, I am not making any sense. None
> of this makes sense. And so you have to remember when you're in that
> jury room deliberating and conjugating the emancipation proclamation,
> does it make sense? No! Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury, it
> does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit."
>
>"The defense rests."
>
>--
>"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
> Summer, salt and wine
> For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
> A velvet bed of nails"
>
>
>
>
>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
From harley@argote.ch Thu, 2 May 2002 20:20:59 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:20:59 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Le Pen...
>I suspect these protests might actually boost Le Pen's vote
>total, above what he would have received had the protesters
>stayed home and simply voted against him.
Yes, that fear is widespread, but it is generally believed that it
applied to the first few protests which turned violent. In recent days,
and especially yesterday, everyone was very careful to march calmly,
in order, in good humour, with security from private firms brought in
to ensure that everything went smoothly (plus the cops).
One day recently, people were similarly concerned when headline news
reported about a guy got who beaten up by some thugs who then set fire
to his house (I guess that in the US that might just about make a
short column in the back pages of the local newspaper). The violence,
or at least perception of violence, especially among old rural people
who are far-removed from it, was likely to boost Le Pen's support.
>but *someone* has to say these things, and this is my only chance to
>express my discontent."
It is generally held that that is what the first round is for.
Hopefully much less so in the second round, and the main issue will
be with left-wing abstainers. An IPSOS poll three days ago gave a
78% - 22% split, although there are rumours circulating of secret
reports suggesting Le Pen could do better than that...
Bye,
Rob.
.-. .-.
/ \ .-. .-. / \
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
\ / `-' `-' \ /
`-' `-'
From jbone@jump.net 02 May 2002 14:02:01 -0500
Date: 02 May 2002 14:02:01 -0500
From: Jeff Bone jbone@jump.net
Subject: URGENT call to action [Fwd: Petition to protect "therapeutic
cloning"]
Hey guys --- the petition effort I copied to the list a couple of weeks
back has had some high-profile signatories, but unbelievably there have
only been 500 signatures! I'm really surprised about that; if you
haven't signed this, please give it serious consideration.
The Brownback bill is a disaster in principle and in practice. It sets
a very dangerous precedent: drastic criminalization of basic scientific
research. After this --- with dubious justification at best --- what
could be next? P2P communications systems? Encryption research?
Nanotech? Quantum computing? If you don't want to set a precedent that
legitimizes our legislature criminalizing any given technological or
scientific progress out of fear, ignorance, and misunderstanding ---
then you should sign this petition.
On a practical level, therapeutic cloning promises to be the most
significant medical technology to date. The range and variety of
maladies treatable with cloned cell and cell structure replacement is
dramatic. The economic impact of developing such capability is hard to
quantify but enormous: many analysts and futurists believe that this
technology may be the most economically significant (foreseeable)
technology of this century, modulo the claims of AI and nanotech
proponents. Criminalizing the basic, enabling research will only ensure
that it moves offshore, along with its attendant economic benefits.
Please take a minute and sign the petition at the very least, or fire up
your phone and call some of the swing vote senators listed below.
Thanks in advance,
jb
-----Forwarded Message-----
From: Virginia Postrel
To: Virginia Postrel
Subject: Petition to protect "therapeutic cloning"
Date: 01 May 2002 23:25:17 -0500
Thanks for signing the Franklin Society's petition against a ban on
"therapeutic cloning." I'm pleased to say that we have more than 500
signatories, with Milton Friedman becoming the 500th today.
The momentum is moving strongly in our direction. As you may have heard, on
Tuesday Senator Orrin Hatch announced his opposition to a ban. A good
background article is here:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/746150.asp?0si=-&cp1=1#BODY
The vote will be extremely close, however, and I'm writing to ask you to
help make sure it goes in favor of keeping this potentially life-saving
medical research free from criminal sanctions.
1) Please ask at least two or three more friends or colleagues to sign the
petition, which we'll be officially releasing in a few days. (If you would
like some explanatory text to use, please reply to this message.)
2) If you have personal comments we can share with the media and/or
lawmakers, please reply to this message with your thoughts.
3) Please email or call your own senators' offices and ask them to vote NO
on the Brownback-Landrieu bill, S. 1899, which would make therapeutic
cloning a crime punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison. Information
on how to contact your senator is here:
http://www.senate.gov/contacting/index.cfm
4) Please email, fax, or call any and all of the following senators' office
and ask them to vote NO on the Brownback-Landrieu bill, S. 1899. (Do not
send a regular letter; congressional mail delivery has been slowed
substantially since the anthrax scare.) These senators are all swing votes.
Some are less decided than others, but all need to hear from you:
Evan Bayh
202-224-5623
202-228-1377 (fax)
http://bayh.senate.gov/WebMail.html
Joseph Biden
202-224-5042
202-224-0139 (fax)
senator@biden.senate.gov
John Breaux
202-224-4623
202-228-2577 (fax)
senator@breaux.senate.gov
Robert Byrd
202-224-3954
202-228-0002 (fax)
senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov
Thomas Carper
202-224-2441
202-228-2190 (fax)
http://carper.senate.gov/Contact/Email_Form/email_form.html
Max Cleland
202-224-3521
202-224-0072 (fax)
http://www.senate.gov/~cleland/webform.html
Thad Cochran
202-224-5054
202-224-3450 (fax)
senator@cochran.senate.gov
Susan Collins
202-224-2523
202-224-2693 (fax)
senator@collins.senate.gov
John Edwards
202-224-3154
202-228-1374 (fax)
http://www.senate.gov/~edwards/contact.html
Kay Bailey Hutchison
202-224-5922
202-224-0776 (fax)
http://hutchison.senate.gov/e-mail.htm
Richard Lugar
202-224-4814
202-228-0360 (fax)
senator_lugar@lugar.senate.gov
John McCain
202-224-2235
202-228-2862 (fax)
john_mccain@mccain.senate.gov
Bill Nelson
202-224-5274
202-228-2183 (fax)
http://billnelson.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm#email
Gordon Smith
202-224-3753
202-228-3997 (fax)
http://www.senate.gov/~gsmith/webform.htm
Olympia Snowe
202-224-5344
202-224-1946 (fax)
olympia@snowe.senate.gov
Ted Stevens
202-224-3004
202-224-2354 (fax)
http://stevens.senate.gov/webform.htm
Strom Thurmond
202-224-5972
202-224-1300 (fax)
senator@thurmond.senate.gov
John Warner
202-224-2023
202-224-6295 (fax)
senator@warner.senate.gov
Thanks for letting your voice be heard on this important issue for our
future.
Sincerely,
Virginia Postrel
--
Virginia Postrel (vpostrel@franklinsociety.org)
Founder, The Franklin Society
Author, The Future and Its Enemies
http://www.franklinsociety.org | http://www.dynamist.com
(214) 219-5725 | (214) 219-1188 (fax)
--
Protect biomedical research. Sign our petition at
http://www.franklinsociety.org/petition.html
From treese@acm.org Thu, 02 May 2002 11:58:32 -0400
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:58:32 -0400
From: Win Treese treese@acm.org
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
> "Jumping the shark" was originally a media critic term. It referred to
> an episode of Happy Days in which Fonzie was supposed to jump his
> motorcycle over a shark tank, and the show ended up with an ending
> that did not include Fonzie chewed up and eventually digested. The
> original meme was that this was the pivotal moment when the show lost
> all credibility, that it became clear that the show's producers had
> given up trying to work within the fictional universe that they had
> created.
Fascinating. So I googled "jumping the shark", which yields:
http://www.jumptheshark.com on the TV series that have done it.
Rolling Stone magazine's list of bands that jumped the shark:
http://www.rollingstone.com/games/jumptheshark/default.asp
and more...
- Win
From treese@acm.org Thu, 02 May 2002 12:00:51 -0400
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:00:51 -0400
From: Win Treese treese@acm.org
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Oh, and USA Today even wrote about it last year:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/2001-08-09-net-interest.htm
- Win
From Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com Thu, 2 May 2002 14:55:12 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:55:12 -0400
From: Meltsner, Kenneth Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Old bits, I guess. My wife told me about it last year; it was the phrase's apparent misuse that prompted me to post. I'll try to jump on the memewagon faster next time.
Although, you could extend the usage to include "a fad becoming mainstream and, as a result, no longer of interest to the real avant garde." "Piercing has jumped the shark" would then be an appropriate use.
I suspect that "jumping the shark" has jumped the shark if there's an article about in USA TODAY, the definitive source for what's not avant garde.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Win Treese [mailto:treese@acm.org]
....
Oh, and USA Today even wrote about it last year:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/2001-08-09-net-interest.htm
- Win
From Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com Thu, 2 May 2002 15:01:33 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:01:33 -0400
From: Meltsner, Kenneth Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Perhaps it's the Wookie equivalent of NAMBLA?
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: chris arkenberg [mailto:carkenbe@adobe.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 1:24 PM
To: Joseph S. Barrera III; Meltsner, Kenneth
Cc: fork@xent.com; juliet@barrera.org
Subject: Re: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Ah the infamous Chewbacca Defense....
You rule, Joe.
At 11:10 AM -0700 5/2/02, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
>Meltsner, Kenneth wrote:
>>other may feel that the introduction of the Ewoks
> > in RotJ was the beginning of the end for that saga.
>
>I vote for the Ewok theory.
>Kill the little fuckers! Kill 'em all!
>
>- Joe
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen of this supposed jury...
>
>"I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and Gentlemen,
> this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookie from the planet Kashyyyk, but
> Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it, that does not
> make sense. Why would a wookie, an eight foot tall wookie, want to live
> on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!
....
From carkenbe@adobe.com Thu, 2 May 2002 12:17:31 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 12:17:31 -0700
From: chris arkenberg carkenbe@adobe.com
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Funny that this has come up today. I just read an interview with Matt
Groening yesterday where he uses and explains the term. I'd never
heard it before but I love it.
http://specials.ft.com/creativebusiness/FT3GRP48M0D.html
Note that the article erroneously quotes Groening as saying that the
show is near it's end. Just today he has rebuked the article and says
the Simpsons will continue for a long time and "continue to make
millions for Rupert Murdoch".
At 2:55 PM -0400 5/2/02, Meltsner, Kenneth wrote:
>Old bits, I guess. My wife told me about it last year; it was the
>phrase's apparent misuse that prompted me to post. I'll try to jump
>on the memewagon faster next time.
>
>Although, you could extend the usage to include "a fad becoming
>mainstream and, as a result, no longer of interest to the real avant
>garde." "Piercing has jumped the shark" would then be an
>appropriate use.
>
>I suspect that "jumping the shark" has jumped the shark if there's
>an article about in USA TODAY, the definitive source for what's not
>avant garde.
>
>Ken
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Win Treese [mailto:treese@acm.org]
>....
>
>Oh, and USA Today even wrote about it last year:
>
>http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/2001-08-09-net-interest.htm
>
> - Win
>
>
>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 15:24:07 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:24:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Meltsner, Kenneth wrote:
--]I'm not sure when the phrase came to mean something like "a significant transition," or whether the new meaning is used outside of FoRK.
I dont really wait around for "offical" sanction to mangle the language.
Use it or loose it folks, its our language, lets make it.
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 12:33:49 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:33:49 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Tom wrote:
> I dont really wait around for "offical" sanction to mangle the language.
I've noticed :-)
> Use it or loose it folks, its our language, lets make it.
And quick, before we loose our apostrophes!
- Joe
--
"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
Summer, salt and wine
For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
A velvet bed of nails"
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 15:44:41 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:44:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
--]And quick, before we loose our apostrophes!
--]
"Once upon a time, somebody say to me "What is your, conceptual,
continuity?" Well I told 'em right then It should be easy to see The crux
of the biscuit is the apostrophe"
FZ
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From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 16:48:52 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 16:48:52 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
> http://www.jumptheshark.com on the TV series that have done it.
>
> Rolling Stone magazine's list of bands that jumped the shark:
> http://www.rollingstone.com/games/jumptheshark/default.asp
>
> and more...
Add this to the list of sites that where the interstitial ads are so
annoying that
there was no way the story was going to be worth the 30 second wait and
annoying
sound effects.
Click - gone. I don't think it was the subject matter either. Interestingly
enough
the other one that was also US Army propaganda (disguised as a movie
starring Owen
Wilson and Gene Hackman). Whenever I hear "Army of One" I have this image of
Anthony
Soprano Jr. at Marines Boot Camp, and Dad talking to the drill sergeant to
make sure he
showed some "respect." (The Sopranos had an episode entitled "Army of One").
Oh and, I think Rolling Stone has definitely jumped the shark.
Owen
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 13:23:26 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:23:26 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
Tom wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> --]And quick, before we loose our apostrophes!
>
> "Once upon a time, somebody say to me "What is your, conceptual,
> continuity?" Well I told 'em right then It should be easy to see The crux
> of the biscuit is the apostrophe"
>
> FZ
A great album. Unfortunately mine is on vinyl in the garage.
So are Overnight Sensation and One Size Fits All.
- Joe
--
"Guacamole Queen
Guacamole Queen
Guacamole Queen
Guacamole Queen"
From carkenbe@adobe.com Thu, 2 May 2002 13:30:22 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 13:30:22 -0700
From: chris arkenberg carkenbe@adobe.com
Subject: Jumping the shark has jumped the shark...
At 3:44 PM -0400 5/2/02, Tom wrote:
>On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
>--]And quick, before we loose our apostrophes!
>--]
>
>"Once upon a time, somebody say to me "What is your, conceptual,
>continuity?" Well I told 'em right then It should be easy to see The crux
>of the biscuit is the apostrophe"
He told me "No, no, no, noooooooo"
I told him "Yes, yes, yes"
I said "I do it all the time. Ain't this boogie a mess?"
>FZ
>
>
>
>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
From sdw@lig.net Thu, 2 May 2002 15:52:38 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:52:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen D. Williams sdw@lig.net
Subject: Updated Jr. Developer 'Want Ad'
>
> What is 'bubble-hangover'?
> - AHW
Bubble-Hangover:
The aftereffects of working for, starting, running, or investing time,
money, and resources in a Bubble-Era Internet Startup. These effects
include drastic loss of net worth (or gain of debt), burnout, need for
stability, and sometimes a loss of interest in computer technology.
sdw
--
sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st
Stephen D. Williams
43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax Dec2001
From sdw@lig.net Thu, 2 May 2002 16:05:30 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 16:05:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen D. Williams sdw@lig.net
Subject: Jargon Coin: Bubble-Hangover
>
> What is 'bubble-hangover'?
> - AHW
Bubble-Hangover:
The aftereffects of working for, starting, running, or investing time,
money, and resources in a Bubble-Era Internet Startup. These effects
include drastic loss of net worth (or gain of debt), burnout, need for
stability, and sometimes a loss of interest in computer technology.
sdw
--
sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st
Stephen D. Williams
43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax Dec2001
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 17:52:56 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 17:52:56 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: Jargon Coin: Bubble-Hangover
Geeze, that's what I have. Yesterday a recruiter called me - I almost fell
over from the shock.
Do I want to risk "hair of the dog?"
Owen
> >
> > What is 'bubble-hangover'?
> > - AHW
>
> Bubble-Hangover:
>
> The aftereffects of working for, starting, running, or investing time,
> money, and resources in a Bubble-Era Internet Startup. These effects
> include drastic loss of net worth (or gain of debt), burnout, need for
> stability, and sometimes a loss of interest in computer technology.
>
> sdw
> --
> sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st
> Stephen D. Williams
> 43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax
Dec2001
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From harley@argote.ch Thu, 2 May 2002 22:54:05 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 22:54:05 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be
Hate to break it to you guys, but this advertisement is the straw that
broke the camel's back:
http://www.executive.computerjobs.com/job_view.asp?jobid=1379300&siteid=136&sort=pd&view=s&searchid=29321819
Microsoft is hiring a ReichsSicherheitDirektor (sorry, but that sounds
so innocuous in English, hence the German...)
Ever more powerful big business getting in bed with a government which
is ever more intrusive and ever less respectful of fundamental liberties...
France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron... But
I now believe that, failing a backlash in future elections, the US is
itself on the slippery slope to some kind of (hopefully mild) neo-fascism.
Don't flame me now. Get back to me in decades to come when you are
all in denial about what happened.
Over and out.
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 17:05:56 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 17:05:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]
--]France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron...
Without US aid? That will be a first. Thing is France more than had its
fill and filling of catering to the facists, neo and otherwise, already
this century.
The US has a long way to go before we can hope to say we are half the
facisthugers as the French.
History is a biotch, aint it Bob?
-tom
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:16:30 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:16:30 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
> Hate to break it to you guys, but this advertisement is the straw that
> broke the camel's back:
>
>
http://www.executive.computerjobs.com/job_view.asp?jobid=1379300&siteid=136&
sort=pd&view=s&searchid=29321819
>
> Microsoft is hiring a ReichsSicherheitDirektor (sorry, but that sounds
> so innocuous in English, hence the German...)
>
> Ever more powerful big business getting in bed with a government which
> is ever more intrusive and ever less respectful of fundamental
liberties...
>
> France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron... But
> I now believe that, failing a backlash in future elections, the US is
> itself on the slippery slope to some kind of (hopefully mild) neo-fascism.
>
Le Pen and supporters are looking pretty unconcerned on TV. Probably got US
backing for a coup,
after it almost worked in Venezuela.
Owen
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:33:42 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:33:42 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
Well, as someone who suggested once that I was quoting ancient history, I'd
like to point out that Mr. Harley is talking about NOW. And right NOW, the
US is the closest to fascism, and has demonstrated (Venezuela) that they
have no respect for foreign democratic institutions and will make efforts to
overthrow them.
As I have repeatedly suggested, it is time for every nation on the planet to
reassess their relationship with the US, ideally with a widespread military
alliance against them and with a mechanism where overall military spending
increases are pegged to be higher than US increases.
Owen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom"
To: "Robert Harley"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: As It Will Be
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
>
> --]
> --]France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron...
>
> Without US aid? That will be a first. Thing is France more than had its
> fill and filling of catering to the facists, neo and otherwise, already
> this century.
>
> The US has a long way to go before we can hope to say we are half the
> facisthugers as the French.
>
> History is a biotch, aint it Bob?
>
> -tom
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From harley@argote.ch Thu, 2 May 2002 23:31:42 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 23:31:42 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be
Our resident whore wrote:
>--]France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron...
>Without US aid? That will be a first.
There you go again.
>History is a biotch, aint it Bob?
Lesson in history... an extremely powerful Germany invaded all of its
neighbours, save Switzerland which was already on board, and beyond.
Britain was alone resisting tooth and nail, ready to "fight on the
beaches", while the US sold them arms until they were bankrupt, and
otherwise twiddled its thumbs. Only after the US was attacked in
Pearl Harbour did they budge, and then ended up lashing out by nuking
hundreds of thousands of civilians. Back in Europe, any serious
historian will tell you that the USSR had more to do with the defeat
of Nazi Germany than all other countries put together.
Any questions?
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:41:14 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:41:14 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
Not to mention that they were very efficient at ensuring that none
of the Jews trying to get out of Germany could get into the US.
While the US contribution to WWII was more significant than it was
in WWI, I would say that on the western front, at least, they mostly
joined in after it was clear that Germany was losing.
Owen
> Our resident whore wrote:
> >--]France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron...
> >Without US aid? That will be a first.
>
> There you go again.
>
>
> >History is a biotch, aint it Bob?
>
> Lesson in history... an extremely powerful Germany invaded all of its
> neighbours, save Switzerland which was already on board, and beyond.
> Britain was alone resisting tooth and nail, ready to "fight on the
> beaches", while the US sold them arms until they were bankrupt, and
> otherwise twiddled its thumbs. Only after the US was attacked in
> Pearl Harbour did they budge, and then ended up lashing out by nuking
> hundreds of thousands of civilians. Back in Europe, any serious
> historian will tell you that the USSR had more to do with the defeat
> of Nazi Germany than all other countries put together.
>
> Any questions?
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:54:00 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:54:00 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
I like this little article (from 2600.com).
I'm sure DMCA 2 will require cable subscribers to install cable-enabled
bathroom door locks so that they are only open when there is not a
commercial on your television. (thus preventing you from committing theft).
Owen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO
Posted 1 May 2002 11:05:57 UTC
It was inevitable. The broadcast industry is now describing people who skip
over commercials as thieves! And with new technology like HDTV and insane
laws such as the DMCA, they may very well make it stick in the future.
Jamie Kellner is the chairman and CEO of Turner Broadcasting, which
encompasses everything from CNN to TNT and is a part of AOL Time Warner. On
Monday, an interview with Kellner appeared in CableWorld.
In response to a question on why personal video recorders (PVR's) were bad
for the industry, Kellner responded: "Because of the ad skips.... It's
theft. Your contract with the network when you get the show is you're going
to watch the spots. Otherwise you couldn't get the show on an ad-supported
basis. Any time you skip a commercial or watch the button you're actually
stealing the programming."
While most programming on American TV is so insultingly bad that nobody
would ever need to steal it in the first place, there is great danger in
permitting this line of reasoning to become accepted. If this is seen as a
"problem," expect legislation forbidding any device that allows consumers to
skip the sacred commercial. Kellner, however, is not completely
unreasonable. When asked if he considers people who go to the bathroom
during a commercial to be thieves, he responded: "I guess there's a certain
amount of tolerance for going to the bathroom. But if you formalize it and
you create a device that skips certain second increments, you've got that
only for one reason, unless you go to the bathroom for 30 seconds. They've
done that just to make it easy for someone to skip a commercial." Heaven
forbid.
The text of the entire interview can be found at
http://www.inside.com/product/product.asp?entity=CableWorld&pf_ID=7A2ACA71-F
AAD-41FC-A100-0B8A11C30373.
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:56:40 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:56:40 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
Since I'm sure someone will jump all over every word of my post, I meant to
say "European Theater" (as opposed to Pacific Theater) rather than Western
Front.
Owen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Byrne"
To: ; "Robert Harley"
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: As It Will Be
> Not to mention that they were very efficient at ensuring that none
> of the Jews trying to get out of Germany could get into the US.
>
> While the US contribution to WWII was more significant than it was
> in WWI, I would say that on the western front, at least, they mostly
> joined in after it was clear that Germany was losing.
>
> Owen
>
> > Our resident whore wrote:
> > >--]France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron...
> > >Without US aid? That will be a first.
> >
> > There you go again.
> >
> >
> > >History is a biotch, aint it Bob?
> >
> > Lesson in history... an extremely powerful Germany invaded all of its
> > neighbours, save Switzerland which was already on board, and beyond.
> > Britain was alone resisting tooth and nail, ready to "fight on the
> > beaches", while the US sold them arms until they were bankrupt, and
> > otherwise twiddled its thumbs. Only after the US was attacked in
> > Pearl Harbour did they budge, and then ended up lashing out by nuking
> > hundreds of thousands of civilians. Back in Europe, any serious
> > historian will tell you that the USSR had more to do with the defeat
> > of Nazi Germany than all other countries put together.
> >
> > Any questions?
> >
> >
> > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> >
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 14:56:12 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 14:56:12 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Jargon Coin: Bubble-Hangover
Owen Byrne wrote:
> Geeze, that's what I have. Yesterday a recruiter called me -
> I almost fell over from the shock.
> Do I want to risk "hair of the dog?"
I do... E.g. I just sent my resume off to rubiconsoft.com which
is pretty early stage as far as I can tell from their website.
I like to explain company stages as following the "main sequence"
that stars follow. I mean, check out the following paragraph:
"The time a star spends on the main sequence depends on its mass.
Perhaps surprisingly the most massive stars spend the least time
on the main sequence. Although they have a lot of fuel to burn,
they do so very rapidly, and exhaust it in only a few hundred
thousand years before expolding violently to become neutron stars
or black holes."
Does that ring true, or what?
Kana right now is in the late red giant stage and is not far
from becoming a black hole.
At any rate, I much rather prefer working for companies in
the early stages.
- Joe
From bill@whump.com Thu, 2 May 2002 15:03:25 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:03:25 -0700
From: Bill Humphries bill@whump.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 02:54 PM, Owen Byrne wrote:
> It was inevitable. The broadcast industry is now describing people who
> skip
> over commercials as thieves! And with new technology like HDTV and insane
> laws such as the DMCA, they may very well make it stick in the future.
Christ on a Segway! I'm tired of hearing this line out of Hollywood.
Please, won't they just shut up, and start selling tv shows on demand?
-- whump
From carey@tstonramp.com Thu, 2 May 2002 15:15:28 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:15:28 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
you know.. Hollywood would accomplish a whole lot more if they just made
telescreens mandatory in every household, in every room. They'd even ge
more accomplished if they teamed up with microsoft and made them 'smart' --
following you as you move, room to room, always on when you're there.
That way you could shit while watching shit.
And of course, they'd be able to see how many eyeballs (or assholes) they
have at any given moment.
yet -another- reason not to own a zombie box.
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Down with Disney, Up with Flint
http://www.baen.com/library/
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Humphries"
To: "Owen Byrne"
Cc: "Fork@Xent.Com"
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Tivo is Theft
> On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 02:54 PM, Owen Byrne wrote:
>
> > It was inevitable. The broadcast industry is now describing people who
> > skip
> > over commercials as thieves! And with new technology like HDTV and
insane
> > laws such as the DMCA, they may very well make it stick in the future.
>
> Christ on a Segway! I'm tired of hearing this line out of Hollywood.
> Please, won't they just shut up, and start selling tv shows on demand?
>
> -- whump
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From beberg@mithral.com Thu, 2 May 2002 15:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam L. Beberg beberg@mithral.com
Subject: Infoworld Article: Bush official delivers wake-up call to IT
industry
On Thu, 2 May 2002 grlygrl201@aol.com wrote:
> Bush official delivers wake-up call to IT industry
> By Michael Vizard
> May 02, 2002 05:43 AM
>
> SALT LAKE CITY -- A senior official in the U.S. Department of Commerce
> called upon the IT industry to significantly raise its game when it
> comes to influencing public policy in order to avert having its
> interests subverted by more politically savvy industries such as the
> telecommunications sector and media content providers.
"We want to get 5 billion people online, not just 5 million," Bond said.
"But that won't happen without the IT industry being engaged in public
policy."
More like 1B I'd say, the 1B that have 20$/month to get online, and much
more importantly, have money to get online and BUY THINGS. As much as we'd
all like to believe we're still in the days of a .edu network, the internet
is now pure .com with less tolerance for people that arent buying things
every day. Heck most people aren't even net-worth enough to waste spam on,
spending all their time trying to find drinkable water or digging in the
dirt so rich people can have diamonds and cell phones :)
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 19:10:59 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:10:59 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
Working at home, I tend to have the television on all day. I mostly watch
(wrong word) the VoicePrint channel
where readers read newspaper stories over the air. Occasionally I feel like
I'm totally subverting the medium.
Unfortunately it has commercials (they read them) too.
Owen
> you know.. Hollywood would accomplish a whole lot more if they just made
> telescreens mandatory in every household, in every room. They'd even ge
> more accomplished if they teamed up with microsoft and made them
'smart' --
> following you as you move, room to room, always on when you're there.
>
>
> That way you could shit while watching shit.
>
> And of course, they'd be able to see how many eyeballs (or assholes) they
> have at any given moment.
>
>
> yet -another- reason not to own a zombie box.
>
>
>
> "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
> you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
>
> Down with Disney, Up with Flint
> http://www.baen.com/library/
>
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
>
> Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Humphries"
> To: "Owen Byrne"
> Cc: "Fork@Xent.Com"
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Tivo is Theft
>
>
> > On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 02:54 PM, Owen Byrne wrote:
> >
> > > It was inevitable. The broadcast industry is now describing people who
> > > skip
> > > over commercials as thieves! And with new technology like HDTV and
> insane
> > > laws such as the DMCA, they may very well make it stick in the future.
> >
> > Christ on a Segway! I'm tired of hearing this line out of Hollywood.
> > Please, won't they just shut up, and start selling tv shows on demand?
> >
> > -- whump
> >
> >
> >
> > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> >
>
>
>
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 19:13:03 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:13:03 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: Infoworld Article: Bush official delivers wake-up call to IT industry
All I could think reading this article was "Mature Industry - VCs will be
looking
elsewhere from now on."
Owen
> On Thu, 2 May 2002 grlygrl201@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Bush official delivers wake-up call to IT industry
> > By Michael Vizard
> > May 02, 2002 05:43 AM
> >
> > SALT LAKE CITY -- A senior official in the U.S. Department of Commerce
> > called upon the IT industry to significantly raise its game when it
> > comes to influencing public policy in order to avert having its
> > interests subverted by more politically savvy industries such as the
> > telecommunications sector and media content providers.
>
> "We want to get 5 billion people online, not just 5 million," Bond said.
> "But that won't happen without the IT industry being engaged in public
> policy."
>
> More like 1B I'd say, the 1B that have 20$/month to get online, and much
> more importantly, have money to get online and BUY THINGS. As much as we'd
> all like to believe we're still in the days of a .edu network, the
internet
> is now pure .com with less tolerance for people that arent buying things
> every day. Heck most people aren't even net-worth enough to waste spam on,
> spending all their time trying to find drinkable water or digging in the
> dirt so rich people can have diamonds and cell phones :)
>
> - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
> http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/
> beberg@mithral.com
>
From bill@whump.com Thu, 2 May 2002 15:21:50 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:21:50 -0700
From: Bill Humphries bill@whump.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 03:15 PM, carey wrote:
> you know.. Hollywood would accomplish a whole lot more if they just made
> telescreens mandatory in every household, in every room. They'd even ge
> more accomplished if they teamed up with microsoft and made them 'smart'
> --
> following you as you move, room to room, always on when you're there.
Ah, this world is the one you're looking for:
http://boingboing.net/2002_05_01_archive.html#85050659
-- whump
From carey@tstonramp.com Thu, 2 May 2002 15:29:36 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:29:36 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
Try npr.
They read the news too. Its streams online, and they don't have commercials.
And you don't get much bullshit either. A much happier medium.
Don't get me wrong. The box has its uses -- occasionally i'm just as much
as a sucker as anyone else for things like the cartoon network and Comedy
Centeral. But its such an infrequent need, I can easily live without. As
TV rarely supplies real -news- (save for a few sparse channels like the ones
you described) i've found I can get much more accurate info via the Net or
the radio system.
As a minor anecdote: I recently was all up on watching a VH1 production
that came out -- The Parental Advisory, the hyper-hollywoodized portrayal of
the PMRC and their struggle to get warning labels on albums. I was
familiar with the topic, and for once, it seemed, VH1 might actually have
put out something interesting.
Then I tuned in. I laughed, I cried (mostly at the horrid acting and
abyssmal plot (they really did make Tipper Gore more annoying than she
already is!) and felt guilty about literally wasting 2 hours of my life on
crap.
I realized too, that I don't miss tv much. And I probably wont' for a long
time.
-BB
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Down with Disney, Up with Flint
http://www.baen.com/library/
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Byrne"
To: "carey" ; "Bill Humphries"
Cc: "Fork@Xent.Com"
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: Tivo is Theft
> Working at home, I tend to have the television on all day. I mostly watch
> (wrong word) the VoicePrint channel
> where readers read newspaper stories over the air. Occasionally I feel
like
> I'm totally subverting the medium.
> Unfortunately it has commercials (they read them) too.
>
> Owen
>
> > you know.. Hollywood would accomplish a whole lot more if they just made
> > telescreens mandatory in every household, in every room. They'd even ge
> > more accomplished if they teamed up with microsoft and made them
> 'smart' --
> > following you as you move, room to room, always on when you're there.
> >
> >
> > That way you could shit while watching shit.
> >
> > And of course, they'd be able to see how many eyeballs (or assholes)
they
> > have at any given moment.
> >
> >
> > yet -another- reason not to own a zombie box.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
> > you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
> >
> > Down with Disney, Up with Flint
> > http://www.baen.com/library/
> >
> > http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
> >
> > Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Humphries"
> > To: "Owen Byrne"
> > Cc: "Fork@Xent.Com"
> > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Tivo is Theft
> >
> >
> > > On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 02:54 PM, Owen Byrne wrote:
> > >
> > > > It was inevitable. The broadcast industry is now describing people
who
> > > > skip
> > > > over commercials as thieves! And with new technology like HDTV and
> > insane
> > > > laws such as the DMCA, they may very well make it stick in the
future.
> > >
> > > Christ on a Segway! I'm tired of hearing this line out of Hollywood.
> > > Please, won't they just shut up, and start selling tv shows on demand?
> > >
> > > -- whump
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:41:10 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:41:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--] Only after the US was attacked in
--]Pearl Harbour did they budge, and then ended up lashing out by nuking
--]hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Ah, you mean we came up with and used a means to stop the war while
France's great contribution was the Maginot line and Vichy water?
Now why dont you go run off and create a new set of offical translations
for Lamerz, Suckaz and douchebagsayswhat.
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:45:34 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:45:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Bill Humphries wrote:
--]Christ on a Segway! I'm tired of hearing this line out of Hollywood.
--]Please, won't they just shut up, and start selling tv shows on demand?
--]
Hollywood has no reason to shut up and stop this line AS LOng As consumers
pay, and pay well, to support thier works.
Loudly, very loudly, start boycotting any RIAA or Hollywood based
products. This does not mean do it like some hip trendmonging cause de
jourer, this means being the annoying beei n thier bonnet and getting any
and all folks to do the same.
Until and unless enough people make it economicaly unfeasisble for this
sort of crap to happen it will go on and on and on and on....and we will
be paying for thepleasure of being bungholed.
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:51:47 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:51:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Thu, 2 May 2002, carey wrote:
--]Try npr.
--]
--]They read the news too. Its streams online, and they don't have commercials.
--]
--]And you don't get much bullshit either. A much happier medium.
And with an app like Streamboxvcr you can pluck the shows right from the
servers and archive them for your own uses.
havingn several years worht of This American Life is a freaking joy, not
to mention the collection of David Sedaris a freind put togther or the
Fresh Air collection another set of collectors is doing up...etc etc etc.
If you have to watch TV might I suggest my fave method...Usenet. I am able
to pluck whole seris of shows for the viewing and in pretty good quality.
Having missed INvader Zim almost entierly I was happy to have been able
to mine it over the last 4 days from one of the groups.
Oh yea, and some of the folks doing the caps actualy cut out the
commericals.
Tech, it can be liberation or slavery. The usRIAA would have it one way, I
have it the other.
F Scot Fitzgerald
F W DeClerk
F Hillary Rossen
-tom
From wkearney99@hotmail.com Thu, 2 May 2002 19:03:38 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:03:38 -0400
From: Bill Kearney wkearney99@hotmail.com
Subject: As It Will Be
> Actually no one, even the ugly far-right groups, looks back to the
> empires, apart from a couple of ancient Britons. World War II was
> sixty-odd years ago. Sixty-odd years ago Britain and France had large
> empires. Why do you (and others) feel the need to dredge up remarks
> about collaboration under the Vichy régime or similar at every
> possible opportunity when people mention France? Don't you realise
> that such refrains are just as old and tired as those of some
> neanderthals pining for the empire?
Then the continued post-war colonial exercises by France probably should get
mentioned instead? Please, if you're going to assassinate one country's
character, be sure your's is no worse. What's that saying "People in glass
houses...." Having failed to get the world to speak French must just irritate
the blazes out of them. To have to say so, in English, doubly so?
> However nobody assails America for its multicultural, multiethnic
> society. Europe has far more cultural diversity than the US. Talk
> about getting a sense of proportion. In the US you can drive a
> thousand kilometres and you find the same culture, the same language,
> the same media spouting the same news, the same songs on the radio,
> the same shops selling the same goods with the same brands...
As opposed to Europe, Asia or Africa where you need only drive a few _hundred_
miles to find all sorts of violence, hatred, nationalism, xenophobia and the
like. One could argue for the consistency of the US as a refreshing
alternative. It'd be a specious argument, of course, but no worse than what's
been proposed here.
> Even between East and West coasts, the sameness is depressing.
Spoken like someone who never travels the US and not just for business trips. I
continue to be astounded by the variations as I travel from the East, West and
more importantly, in the Middle. There's quite a range. But for the folks or
watching the media or travelling just for trade shows, it must certainly look
quite lacking in heterogeniety. Those who actually experience it know
otherwise. Come visit, we could use the tourism boost.
> Heck in all of North America, you have to go the Quebec to find something a
little
> different, or Mexico for a real change of scenery. Whereas Europe has
> at least a dozen very different native cultures, plus many "imported"
> ones.
Again, the ignorance of the untravelled?
> Europe is highly multiethnic, whether the "ugly" groups like it or
> not. In my opinion ethnic groups are better integrated here than in
> the US. We don't have ghettos or slums with 50% hispanics or
> whatever. They just dont exist. Blacks in Europe have never had
> anything like the trouble they have had in the US.
And where did the term ghetto originate? Or barrio? Wouldn't those cultural
abominations have had to come from somewhere? Oh, right, they're European
constructs! Puh-leeze, to say that Europe is better somehow ignores it's track
record of over a thousand years trampling on the rights of man. And the
emergence of what country helped put a stop to most of that, hmmm?
> Integration problems here are far less trouble than over there, but they get a
> much more vociferous treatment from politicians, ugly or otherwise.
I'd wonder how the immigrants lurking near the chunnel would comment here. Or
the gypsies in Germany. To say nothing of the north Africans eager to get into
France. Far less trouble? No, I don't think so. Different troubles, of
course, but less?
> Likewise, security and insecurity are a big issue, but to get a sense
> of proportion... there are something like 25000 homicides in the US
> each year, versus a few hundred in France or the UK. People worry a
> lot and shout loudly at issues that are relatively minor compared to
> elsewhere.
You'd think the arrogant Europeans would be glad to see the Americans so readily
murdering themselves. Of course comparisons of one country with a few million
residents to that of a country with almost 300 million has other statistical
problems. Proportional still favors the Europeans I suppose. Perhaps the fact
they're all jammed into one place, having tired of their *thousands* of years
history murdering each other, has gotten it out of their system. Let's hope the
US reaches that lofty enlightenment a lot sooner.
Let's ask ourselves, what sort of timeline is important here? Does the fact
that the US has managed, in only 200 years, to do what Europe couldn't, mean
that the US is somehow better? I'd argue it doesn't. It simply means that
after thousands of years screwing around the Europeans provided an effective
'bad example' of how not to continue doing things. So what sorts of examples
are being set today that will affect changes for the better 200 years from now?
Who's leading that charge? Is the US the 'effective bad example' this time
around? If so, what's a viable way to effect change?
-Bill Kearney
From wkearney99@hotmail.com Thu, 2 May 2002 19:04:44 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:04:44 -0400
From: Bill Kearney wkearney99@hotmail.com
Subject: As It Will Be
> Lesson in history... an extremely powerful Germany invaded all of its
> neighbours, save Switzerland which was already on board, and beyond.
> Britain was alone resisting tooth and nail, ready to "fight on the
> beaches", while the US sold them arms until they were bankrupt, and
> otherwise twiddled its thumbs. Only after the US was attacked in
> Pearl Harbour did they budge, and then ended up lashing out by nuking
> hundreds of thousands of civilians. Back in Europe, any serious
> historian will tell you that the USSR had more to do with the defeat
> of Nazi Germany than all other countries put together.
>
> Any questions?
Uh yeah, like what're you smoking that makes that sound like the truth?
Let's start with how the Europeans sowed the seeds of their own disaster. The
Treaty of Versailles, something the US argued strongly against, basically
stuffed the Germans into a very tight bind. That stranglehold quite effectively
sowed the very seeds of discontent that led to Germany's uprising and directly
to WWII. Is is any surprise the US was unwilling to get involved from the
start? Europe wouldn't listen the FIRST time we bailed them out so was it any
wonder there was hestitancy on the part of the US Congress to not fund another
fiasco?
What led to Germany's downfall was their own series of blunders. Had they
chosen not to engage the Russians as soon as they did they may well have
prolonged the war. The series of failed battles with the Soviet Union were
indeed helpful in Germany losing the war. But without the overall efforts on
both Fronts, the war certainly would have lasted for at least another two years.
Would there have been a different outcome? Quite possibly but we're all
fortunate the US and allied forces helped keep that from happening.
As for selling until bankrupt, who's fault is that? The seller or the buyer?
Or you trying to suggest some sort of profiteering? We'll just completely
ignore the debt forgiveness and the Marshall plan efforts that kept Europe from
fucking it up again, won't we?
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, arguably awful events, cost far fewer lives on *both*
sides than continued protracted convential warfare would have. And MacArthur
didn't do such a bad job getting things back on track for Japan either.
If you're going to insist on painting the US as some great evil, at least have
some decent arguments to back it up. There's plenty of other cases where thing
have been done wrong. Go do some real homework. But don't expect to prattle on
endlessly without being called on it.
-Bill Kearney
From sd@sohu.com Fri, 3 May 2002 07:11:10
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 07:11:10
From: ÄãµÄÒ»¸öÅóÓÑ sd@sohu.com
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From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 19:05:26 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:05:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
--]> whatever. They just dont exist. Blacks in Europe have never had
--]> anything like the trouble they have had in the US.
Yea, but fuck all if your a jew, or algerian, or a bask, or irsh catholic,
or irish protestant, or serbian, or croatin, or islamic, or hindi, or
afghan, or turkish, or castilian, or...etc etc etc.. and you wander into
the wrong section of town.
And all this in less acerage than the US.
WOW, thats something to be proud about. Pound for Pound and per cpatia
more intolerance, more racial tension, more inequity and more cultural
rifts than the US.
Well, if you have to be best at something.
Doesnt it start to suck eventualy to be you?
Can ya feel the suckage?
-tom
From garym@canada.com 02 May 2002 19:05:09 -0400
Date: 02 May 2002 19:05:09 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy garym@canada.com
Subject: As It Will Be
>>>>> "R" == Robert Harley writes:
R> ... Only after the US was attacked in Pearl Harbour did they
R> budge ...
R> Any questions?
Only one, herr professor: Was there any impetus in the risk of the
debtors (not just Britain, but Spain, Italy, France and others too)
defaulting on their loans should the Allies fall?
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Innovations Through Open Source Systems: http://www.teledyn.com
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
From baisley@alumni.rice.edu Thu, 02 May 2002 18:26:04 -0500
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:26:04 -0500
From: Wayne Baisley baisley@alumni.rice.edu
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
> You could also try guessing at an inverse function. What familiar
> phrase of yore led to this output?
>
> the bat, papa, eight with the team of employees
I can get close:
hit it daddy, eight to the bar. ->
repaired he papa, eight with the team of employees.
More expansively, we have:
beat it daddy, eight to the bar. ->
It has the effect in the papa, eight to him with the team of employees.
Some inverses may be unique, but will be impossible to guess:
And now for something completely different: ->
Fullfilled to totally vario something ordered becomes and:
Go fly a kite. ->
A red red deer of the flight goes Moscow.
Cheers,
Wayne
I may be one-to-one, but I refuse to be onto.
From gojomo@usa.net Thu, 2 May 2002 18:34:53 -0500
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:34:53 -0500
From: Gordon Mohr gojomo@usa.net
Subject: As It Will Be
Owen writes:
> Well, as someone who suggested once that I was quoting ancient history, I'd
> like to point out that Mr. Harley is talking about NOW. And right NOW, the
> US is the closest to fascism,
"Fascism is is perpetually descending on the United States, but
somehow it always lands on Europe." (Origin unknown.)
Our federal system, regional diversity, economic flexibility,
and long tradition of freedom makes the US immune to all sorts
of threats that could topple other democratic regimes.
Some of the US strengths against fascism and mob rule -- things
like mass private gun ownership, a variety of fervent religious
movements, spendthrift social welfare policies, privatized basic
utilities, a bizarre patchwork of state and local laws -- are
ridiculed by naive outsiders from paternalistic nations as of
signs of America's weirdness or immaturity.
They are not. They are pillars of a stable, open, unshakably free
society, where no narrow group can even imagine trying to hijack
the state's power, even in tough times, and turn it against our
liberties.
> and has demonstrated (Venezuela) that they
> have no respect for foreign democratic institutions and will make efforts to
> overthrow them.
Huh? There's certainly a historic precedent -- through the cold war --
of the US helping to overthrow locally-popular governments, but it
remains to be seen if that was the case in Venezuela. Talking with
all sides, and expressing distate for Hugo Chavez, isn't the same
as making efforts to overthrow him.
> As I have repeatedly suggested, it is time for every nation on the planet to
> reassess their relationship with the US, ideally with a widespread military
> alliance against them and with a mechanism where overall military spending
> increases are pegged to be higher than US increases.
Woohoo! Yes, shop this brilliant idea of an anti-US worldwide military
pact around a bit. Maybe they'll make you leader and headwquarter this
sort of anti-NATO in Canada -- where we can be sure it'll never be a
threat.
- Gordon
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 20:33:11 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:33:11 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
I lived in a barrio recently. I believe the pejorative use of the world is
entirely a
North American phenomenon. Not that that proves anything. This was a pretty
good thoughtful response, though, IMHO, and made me feel a little ashamed of
my unrestrained rabble-rousing. Conversation is good.
I've travelled across the midwest US, and I didn't see the diversity you
talk about.
. I did see a striking difference between the Canadian city of Winnipeg and
the American
city of Minneapolis one day's drive away - and that difference was ethnicity
and immigration
Much more visible in Canada.
> > Even between East and West coasts, the sameness is depressing.
>
> Spoken like someone who never travels the US and not just for business
trips. I
> continue to be astounded by the variations as I travel from the East, West
and
> more importantly, in the Middle. There's quite a range. But for the
folks or
> watching the media or travelling just for trade shows, it must certainly
look
> quite lacking in heterogeniety. Those who actually experience it know
> otherwise. Come visit, we could use the tourism boost.
>
> > Heck in all of North America, you have to go the Quebec to find
something a
> little
> > different, or Mexico for a real change of scenery. Whereas Europe has
> > at least a dozen very different native cultures, plus many "imported"
> > ones.
>
Quebec? The Newfoundlanders are in their boats and headed your way. Y'll
be kissing the cod, b'y, whether you like it or not!
> Again, the ignorance of the untravelled?
>
> > Europe is highly multiethnic, whether the "ugly" groups like it or
> > not. In my opinion ethnic groups are better integrated here than in
> > the US. We don't have ghettos or slums with 50% hispanics or
> > whatever. They just dont exist. Blacks in Europe have never had
> > anything like the trouble they have had in the US.
>
> And where did the term ghetto originate? Or barrio? Wouldn't those
cultural
> abominations have had to come from somewhere? Oh, right, they're European
> constructs! Puh-leeze, to say that Europe is better somehow ignores it's
track
> record of over a thousand years trampling on the rights of man. And the
> emergence of what country helped put a stop to most of that, hmmm?
>
> > Integration problems here are far less trouble than over there, but they
get a
> > much more vociferous treatment from politicians, ugly or otherwise.
>
> I'd wonder how the immigrants lurking near the chunnel would comment here.
Or
> the gypsies in Germany. To say nothing of the north Africans eager to get
into
> France. Far less trouble? No, I don't think so. Different troubles, of
> course, but less?
>
> > Likewise, security and insecurity are a big issue, but to get a sense
> > of proportion... there are something like 25000 homicides in the US
> > each year, versus a few hundred in France or the UK. People worry a
> > lot and shout loudly at issues that are relatively minor compared to
> > elsewhere.
>
> You'd think the arrogant Europeans would be glad to see the Americans so
readily
> murdering themselves. Of course comparisons of one country with a few
million
> residents to that of a country with almost 300 million has other
statistical
> problems. Proportional still favors the Europeans I suppose. Perhaps the
fact
> they're all jammed into one place, having tired of their *thousands* of
years
> history murdering each other, has gotten it out of their system. Let's
hope the
> US reaches that lofty enlightenment a lot sooner.
>
> Let's ask ourselves, what sort of timeline is important here? Does the
fact
> that the US has managed, in only 200 years, to do what Europe couldn't,
mean
> that the US is somehow better? I'd argue it doesn't. It simply means
that
> after thousands of years screwing around the Europeans provided an
effective
> 'bad example' of how not to continue doing things. So what sorts of
examples
> are being set today that will affect changes for the better 200 years from
now?
> Who's leading that charge? Is the US the 'effective bad example' this
time
> around? If so, what's a viable way to effect change?
>
For starters, perhaps if the US put the appointment of Corporate
Surveillance firm out to
tender, or had public hearings, it might help dissipate its
Corporate/Military Behemoth image
I suspect, however, that there's a quid pro quo involved.
Owen
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 20:52:59 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:52:59 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
> > As I have repeatedly suggested, it is time for every nation on the
planet to
> > reassess their relationship with the US, ideally with a widespread
military
> > alliance against them and with a mechanism where overall military
spending
> > increases are pegged to be higher than US increases.
>
> Woohoo! Yes, shop this brilliant idea of an anti-US worldwide military
> pact around a bit. Maybe they'll make you leader and headwquarter this
> sort of anti-NATO in Canada -- where we can be sure it'll never be a
> threat.
>
The intent would be that the whole world would be a lot happier with less
weapons.
Since the United States seems to be entirely opposed to that, an alliance
that
said they would increase their spending at the same rate might make you
think twice
about your own military spending and arms exports.
Somehow I tend to believe that the recent proliferation of treaties that the
US chose to
opt out of as some evidence that non-US leaders see some definite friction
(Kyoto Accord,
Landmine Treaty, War Crimes Court). Also the recent EU "standing army"
thing.
It seems that its just basic realpolitik for leaders in Europe to look to
alliances against the
dominant nation. Unless they've decided its too late, and its better for
them, personally, to
collaborate with that nation.
Owen
From beberg@mithral.com Thu, 2 May 2002 17:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 17:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam L. Beberg beberg@mithral.com
Subject: Infoworld Article: Bush official delivers wake-up call to IT
industry
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Owen Byrne wrote:
> All I could think reading this article was "Mature Industry - VCs will
> be looking elsewhere from now on."
*chuckles* yes, the entire computer industry is extremely mature in that
sense. Almost all of it is now a commodity, bandwidth for Joe Average being
the only thing that wasnt a commodity 20 years ago.
The problem is there is very little else to look at for investors - which
demand exponential growth. What else has non-commodity growth anymore? There
is biotech, but the amount of money you can effectively throw at Chemistry
PhD's is very limited, and the diseases that have enough victoms and dont
already have a daily pill are very limited as well. Sure you can make
billions on a drug, but it takes billions to develop a drug in the first
place, so the rate of return sucks. You do far better playing the stock
swings between press releases and patent expirations.
Wireless has alot of geeks excided with mesh networks and the like, but when
10 companies _already_ have a $60 home unit when the press hasn't even
started hyping it up yet doesn't inspire a non-commodity scenario, but does
scare the bandwidth providers.
"Web services" are all the rage, but I think we all know that what IIS can
do, Apache can do better, and what .com can create .gnu can copy. Not long
after .NET was announced, the the free copy of .NET projects were started
guarenteing another commodity scenario. If we're "lucky" and develops into
a market at all, which I'm hoping it wont due to the security/privacy
nightmare.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 01:59:01 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 01:59:01 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be
Thus spake Whore:
>>Blacks in Europe have never had anything like the trouble they have had
>>in the US.
>
>Yea, but fuck all if [...] and you wander into the wrong section of town.
>
>And all this in less acerage than the US.
Like acreage matters? Actually the total area of Europe is about
10.4 million square kilometres, whereas the US is 9.2 x 10^6 km^2,
although the European Union is just 3.2 x 10^6 km^2.
>WOW, thats something to be proud about. Pound for Pound and per cpatia
>more intolerance, [etc.]
Getting killed is the bottom line, whatever the cause. Here are
homicide rates (per 100000) and population (1000's) for the EU
countries and the US:
Austria 1.31 8075
Belgium 1.24 10192
Denmark 0.80 5295
Finland 3.38 5147
France 1.25 58728
Germany 1.11 82057
Greece ? 10511
Ireland 0.71 3694
Italy 1.75 57563
Luxembourg ? 424
Netherlands 0.75 15654
Portugal 1.79 9957
Spain 0.78 39348
Sweden 1.08 8839
United Kingdom 0.86 58862
US 8.3 286000
Works out to a total of about 4450 homicides for 374 million people in
the EU (NB: Europe total ~= 684 x 10^6), versus the US at 23700
homicides for 286 million people.
>Well, if you have to be best at something.
I'd say you have us beat.
Bye,
Rob.
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 02:02:52 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 02:02:52 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be
Owen Byrne wrote:
>As I have repeatedly suggested, it is time for every nation on the
>planet to reassess their relationship with the US, ideally with a
>widespread military alliance against them and with a mechanism where
>overall military spending increases are pegged to be higher than US
>increases.
>The intent would be that the whole world would be a lot happier with
>less weapons. Since the United States seems to be entirely opposed to
>that, an alliance that said they would increase their spending at the
>same rate might make you think twice about your own military spending
>and arms exports.
Owen, stop being silly!
This sort of arms-race nonsense is exactly the sort of thing that is
NOT on the agenda, in Europe at least.
R
From carey@tstonramp.com Thu, 2 May 2002 17:20:14 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 17:20:14 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: As It Will Be
A recap of the past bout of FoRK threads on the subject of nationalism:
'Wah! My country is better than your country!'
'No MY country is better than your country, and our leaders dont' stink!'
'Wah! AT least we don't whine after we nominate an idiot!'
'Yes you do!'
'No we don't!'
'Well I can find figures that say my country kicks more ass than you!'
'Well fuck your figgers, and fuck you too'
And i'm sure.. the next logical progression will be:
Either, someone calling for hitler, someone standing up, waving their
country-wide penis in the air (which is essentially all this is, save for
the elloquence), or John or Adam posting something so outlandish that it
makes the thread cease.
Men. *eyeroll*
-BB
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Down with Disney, Up with Flint
http://www.baen.com/library/
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Harley"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 1:54 PM
Subject: As It Will Be
> Hate to break it to you guys, but this advertisement is the straw that
> broke the camel's back:
>
>
http://www.executive.computerjobs.com/job_view.asp?jobid=1379300&siteid=136&
sort=pd&view=s&searchid=29321819
>
> Microsoft is hiring a ReichsSicherheitDirektor (sorry, but that sounds
> so innocuous in English, hence the German...)
>
> Ever more powerful big business getting in bed with a government which
> is ever more intrusive and ever less respectful of fundamental
liberties...
>
> France is about to soundly thrash its local neo-fascist moron... But
> I now believe that, failing a backlash in future elections, the US is
> itself on the slippery slope to some kind of (hopefully mild) neo-fascism.
>
> Don't flame me now. Get back to me in decades to come when you are
> all in denial about what happened.
>
> Over and out.
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
>
From garym@canada.com 02 May 2002 20:26:16 -0400
Date: 02 May 2002 20:26:16 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy garym@canada.com
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
>>>>> "W" == Wayne Baisley writes:
W> I can get close:
W> hit it daddy, eight to the bar. -> repaired he papa, eight
W> with the team of employees.
Shouldn't that be "Beat _me_ daddy, eight to the bar"? (Tommy Dorsey?)
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Innovations Through Open Source Systems: http://www.teledyn.com
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 02:18:22 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 02:18:22 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be
TW wrote:
> > [...] nuking hundreds of thousands of civilians.
> Ah, you mean we came up with and used a means to stop the war [...]
Akshuly, the USGov debated the possibility of nuking an unhabited area
of Japan to make it clear that: you might as well give up 'cause we've
got the bomb (thanks to people like Einstein (German), Bohr
(Danish), Teller, Wigner and Szilard (Hungarian), Fermi (Italian),
and Feynman and Oppenheimer (American)).
In the end they decided: fuck it, let's just kill a bunch of them Japs.
R
From garym@canada.com 02 May 2002 20:28:29 -0400
Date: 02 May 2002 20:28:29 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy garym@canada.com
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
>>>>> "W" == Wayne Baisley writes:
W> I may be one-to-one, but I refuse to be onto.
Oh, great, now I suppose we're supposed to be _topologically_ correct
too! Fat chance of that, what with my one edge and no face and all.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Innovations Through Open Source Systems: http://www.teledyn.com
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
From wkearney99@hotmail.com Thu, 2 May 2002 20:41:37 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:41:37 -0400
From: Bill Kearney wkearney99@hotmail.com
Subject: As It Will Be
Alright, glad to see my counter-jingoism was met with it's intended response.
I have to say I find your regular posts of US-bashing to be a bit tiresome.
There are nuggets of truth in the perspectives you're espousing, so I'm not
entirely in disagreement with you. I've seen your tone of responses from
another Canadian citizen so it's not like I can't appreciate it. I don't agree,
but I'll certainly defend your right to express the opinions. When you're
factually incorrect though, prepare for a battle.
Having travelled from the East coast to cities like Des Moines, Iowa is a lot
more illustrative. From there out to other tinier places even more so. Driving
from Baltimore to San Diego on two occasions was incredibly enlightening. Not
for the coasts but for the realities of life in-between them. It's nothing like
the crap you see in the media. I'll confess to not visiting Canada in any
depth. I've not had reason to do so other than the random trips to Toronto or
Montreal for cross-border jaunts or trade shows. I'm sure a drive to from
Newfoundland to Vancouver could be equally interesting.
Diversity means different things to different people, especially as they age.
What I found vis a vis diversity was a refreshing range of good people. Of all
class, color and economic stripes. Did I find a lot of avant-garde freaks in
Iowa? Not anywhere near like those in NYC. But there were some pretty funky
folks to be found. And my trips into the middle of nowhere in Arizona have
turned up some pretty amazing people too. Although it did take a week being in
Navajo country before I could get anyone to do anything more than grunt at me.
And the asian folks I met in Oklahoma really surprised me. Being descendants of
coolies working on the railroad and yet still Okies. Quite mind expanding. So
did I look around, see familiar looking faces and think there was no diversity?
No, actually talked, visited and stayed with folks and got the real picture.
There's a lot more to US citizens than just looking around reveals sometimes.
I spent the better part of the 80's and early nineties selling technology
components in the Mid-atlantic area. The main customers included defense
contractors. If you had any idea how terribly incompetent some of these folks
are you'd forget your conspiracy theories in an *instant*. We should BE so
lucky as to have a so-called military industrial complex be ruthelessly
efficient and organized. I'll take the staggering waste and incompetence as a
sign of safety. They fuck up doing things so bad, it's almost good for us.
The tragic misconception on the part of most sabre-rattlers is that there's some
secret cabal "in charge" of it all. Trust me, that ain't the case. I could
tell you some stories. Although I suppose then I'd have to kill you then, being
as your one of them foreigners and all. Perhaps the truth can be found in
sayings like that from the Pogo cartoon; "We have met the enemy and he is us."
The government is nothing more than your incompetent neighbors. If you trust
your neighbors then you can trust your government. Of course most folks these
days don't even know their f'ing neighbors so is it any wonder they're inventing
paranoid bullshit?
I'm more worried about the damned church than the goverment. The government
gets elected at least, even if they do buy it. They have to come up with the
money to do it first. The church? "God, save me from your followers."
-Bill Kearney
----- Original Message -----
> I lived in a barrio recently. I believe the pejorative use of the world is
entirely a
> North American phenomenon. Not that that proves anything. This was a pretty
> good thoughtful response, though, IMHO, and made me feel a little ashamed of
> my unrestrained rabble-rousing. Conversation is good.
>
> I've travelled across the midwest US, and I didn't see the diversity you
> talk about. . I did see a striking difference between the Canadian city of
Winnipeg and
> the American city of Minneapolis one day's drive away - and that difference
was ethnicity
> and immigration Much more visible in Canada.
>
> For starters, perhaps if the US put the appointment of Corporate Surveillance
firm out to
> tender, or had public hearings, it might help dissipate its Corporate/Military
Behemoth image
> I suspect, however, that there's a quid pro quo involved.
From gojomo@usa.net Thu, 2 May 2002 19:56:11 -0500
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:56:11 -0500
From: Gordon Mohr gojomo@usa.net
Subject: Homicide Rates Re: As It Will Be
Robert Harley writes:
> Getting killed is the bottom line, whatever the cause. Here are
> homicide rates (per 100000) and population (1000's) for the EU
> countries and the US:
>
> Austria 1.31 8075
> Belgium 1.24 10192
> Denmark 0.80 5295
> Finland 3.38 5147
> France 1.25 58728
> Germany 1.11 82057
> Greece ? 10511
> Ireland 0.71 3694
> Italy 1.75 57563
> Luxembourg ? 424
> Netherlands 0.75 15654
> Portugal 1.79 9957
> Spain 0.78 39348
> Sweden 1.08 8839
> United Kingdom 0.86 58862
>
> US 8.3 286000
>
> Works out to a total of about 4450 homicides for 374 million people in
> the EU (NB: Europe total ~= 684 x 10^6), versus the US at 23700
> homicides for 286 million people.
Can you provide a source for these figures? (There are a lot of
iffy, inaccurate, outdated, or incomparable stats floating around
the net -- and the US murder rates have plummetted over the past
decade.)
The FBI reports a a US "muder and nonnegligent manslaughter"
rate in 2000 of only 5.5 per 100,000 [1] -- so I think your data
may be quite old.
I have no doubt that the murder rate in the US is higher than
most other developed countries; we have higher highs and lower
lows than other places -- that's freedom for you -- and there
remain some disgracefully dangerous places, esp. in certain
cities, which drive our numbers way up.
Looking on the bright side:
(1) Murders do not occur by random selection; choices of
residence or lifestyle can avoid the greatest risks, and
many murders occur between people (e.g. those in criminal
organizations) who have chosen a risky path.
(2) Americans tend not to commit suicide as much as
Europeans. From the WHO [2]:
Suicide Rate per 100K
USA 11.4 (1996)
France 19.9 (1997)
Denmark 17.5 (1996)
UK 7.4 (1998)
Germany 14.2 (1998)
So taking for example, the US versus France -- if we in fact have
4 more murders per 100K (assuming your French number is current),
but 8 fewer suicides, who's to say what's better?
- Gordon
[1] http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_00/00crime2_3.pdf
[2] http://www.who.int/mental_health/Topic_Suicide/suicide1.html
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 22:35:30 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 22:35:30 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
> I'm more worried about the damned church than the goverment. The
government
> gets elected at least, even if they do buy it. They have to come up with
the
> money to do it first. The church? "God, save me from your followers."
>
> -Bill Kearney
>
It just seems to me that the church, and US corporations, and the
government, and military
contractors are all united more than they ever have been. Everyone is in
everybody's
else's pockets, and they're all determined to make sure democracy doesn't
stand in the way
of profits, and God, and the Republican Party. The war on drugs and the DMCA
are both
examples of policies designed to restrict Americans, but which have spread
beyond their
borders( been forced down our throats). And I am appalled
at Afghanistan.
It doesn't really take a conspiracy to make bad things happen. As in WWI,
sometimes incompetents
can do a pretty good job of starting a war.
My nationalism is largely in response to some of the postings in this group.
I guess "reaction" is
a better word than response. One night I switched modes from FoRK-rant to
reading Dave Winer
saying "Sharon must go." Shut me right up.
I do notice a pretty steady drumbeat of anti-American nationalism on
the news lately too. Its mostly at the level of whining from politicians,
and probably
a jump in defense spending. Not that we think we can be a threat to the
alpha male, we
just want hime to notice us once in a while. Maybe we have dreams of being
at the front of the
pack somewhere down the line. Past military glory and war dead and all that.
Then there's the hockey - watch out for drunken Habs fans
on the rampage at the border crossings.
Owen
From wkearney99@hotmail.com Thu, 2 May 2002 22:10:16 -0400
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 22:10:16 -0400
From: Bill Kearney wkearney99@hotmail.com
Subject: As It Will Be
> It just seems to me that the church, and US corporations, and the
> government, and military contractors are all united more than they ever have
been. Everyone is in
> everybody's else's pockets, and they're all determined to make sure democracy
doesn't
> stand in the way of profits, and God, and the Republican Party.
And you think it's just awful! In this day and age! That this could be
happening, right?
Go read up on the Industrial Revolution. Search for people like Carnegie,
Vanderbilt. Then look up things like the Palmer raids. Makes folks like
Ashcroft look like sissies. We've been here before and somehow we survived.
Each time we enact legislation that stamps out the bits of foolishness that harm
ourselves. As opposed to trying to legislate away everything before it ever
happens.
The saying "those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it" comes to
mind here... Perhaps a subtle variation would be "those who fail to study those
who whinged about history and doomed to whinge just the same..."
>The war on drugs and the DMCA are both examples of policies designed to
> restrict Americans, but which have spread beyond their borders
> ( been forced down our throats).
Oh give me a break. Let's just wander all over the map here why don't we?
Can't win one argument so let's start another? As much fun as it is to get
stoned I can't say I disagree with much of what the "War on Drugs" has done.
The DMCA exists because the vast majority of geeks keep whining amongst
themselves instead of taking action. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. But you're
not even a US citizen, the DMCA doesn't apply to you. Make sure you get out and
*actively* campaign against that sort of foolishness cropping up in your own
country. You tell me what's "been forced down your throats" besides becoming a
willing victim of sensationalism.
> And I am appalled at Afghanistan.
Me too, those poor women getting killed in the stadiums really sucked big time.
Not to mention depriving them of any sorts of rights, voting or freedom of
travel. The wanton destruction of ancient art (albeit religious) and culture
was utterly appalling. All in the name of religion too! Yeah, theocracies
really suck don't they? Oh, but you're assailing the US activities, right?
Yeah, that's right, let's let 'em go back to being a 14th century country that
harbored 21st century terrorists. Ones that actively espouse the destruction of
all forms of Western culture. Yep, that'd be a a heck of an improvement.
Now, could we go about routing these bastards in a "kindler, gentler fashion"?
How about we harken back to WWII and how all the folks thought it was so evil to
have used the bomb on the Japanese? Oh, sorry, can't do that, all those folks
were grateful to have an end to the conflict, one which they didn't start. The
fact 50k-odd people had to get incinerated in the process was apparently a price
they were willing to pay. Strange but even with orders of magnitude inflation
of casualties it's still a pretty mild exercise.
> It doesn't really take a conspiracy to make bad things happen. As in WWI,
> sometimes incompetents can do a pretty good job of starting a war.
Yeah, especially when they're whipped into a frenzy with half-truths, media
fantasies and outright lies.
> My nationalism is largely in response to some of the postings in this group.
> I guess "reaction" is a better word than response. One night I switched modes
from
> FoRK-rant to reading Dave Winer saying "Sharon must go." Shut me right up.
Well, that's the turd in the punch bowl. Weblogger-based literacy.. that
explains just sooo much.
> I do notice a pretty steady drumbeat of anti-American nationalism on
> the news lately too. Its mostly at the level of whining from politicians,
> and probably a jump in defense spending.
It's no better or worse now that plenty of other times in the past. Go to the
library and read pages from the non-US papers in the 1970's. Just as full of
the same tripe you see today. Rewind back to 1930 and you'll see it again,
1880, again, repeat until some history rubs off.
> Not that we think we can be a threat to the alpha male, we just want him to
notice us once in a while
Ah, now we get to it, testosterone poisoning, or lack thereof... Read up on the
Monroe doctrine sometime. We have laws here about not being the so-called alpha
male in geopolitics. So instead of invading military we invade economically?
Hmmm, that's a lot less worse than how Europe tried to do it.
.
> Maybe we have dreams of being at the front of the pack somewhere down the
line. Past military glory and war dead and all that.
> Then there's the hockey - watch out for drunken Habs fans on the rampage at
the border crossings.
And slowly the strength of the argument just dribbles away....
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:13:21 2000
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From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 19:41:20 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:41:20 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: As It Will Be
> Men. *eyeroll*
Not me! I hate this shit.
- Joe
From owen@permafrost.net Thu, 2 May 2002 23:37:22 -0300
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 23:37:22 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: As It Will Be
Apologies for trying to state my honest opinions and give up the argument
with an attempt at self-deprecating humour. I mentioned Dave Winer
as an American with an alternate opinion, not as a font of wisdom.You
know - diversity.
"Go read up on the Industrial Revolution" - holy fuck!
Owen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Kearney"
> > It just seems to me that the church, and US corporations, and the
> > government, and military contractors are all united more than they ever
have
> been. Everyone is in
> > everybody's else's pockets, and they're all determined to make sure
democracy
> doesn't
> > stand in the way of profits, and God, and the Republican Party.
>
> And you think it's just awful! In this day and age! That this could be
> happening, right?
>
> Go read up on the Industrial Revolution. Search for people like Carnegie,
> Vanderbilt. Then look up things like the Palmer raids. Makes folks like
> Ashcroft look like sissies. We've been here before and somehow we
survived.
> Each time we enact legislation that stamps out the bits of foolishness
that harm
> ourselves. As opposed to trying to legislate away everything before it
ever
> happens.
>
> The saying "those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it" comes
to
> mind here... Perhaps a subtle variation would be "those who fail to study
those
> who whinged about history and doomed to whinge just the same..."
>
> >The war on drugs and the DMCA are both examples of policies designed to
> > restrict Americans, but which have spread beyond their borders
> > ( been forced down our throats).
>
> Oh give me a break. Let's just wander all over the map here why don't we?
> Can't win one argument so let's start another? As much fun as it is to
get
> stoned I can't say I disagree with much of what the "War on Drugs" has
done.
> The DMCA exists because the vast majority of geeks keep whining amongst
> themselves instead of taking action. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. But
you're
> not even a US citizen, the DMCA doesn't apply to you. Make sure you get
out and
> *actively* campaign against that sort of foolishness cropping up in your
own
> country. You tell me what's "been forced down your throats" besides
becoming a
> willing victim of sensationalism.
>
> > And I am appalled at Afghanistan.
>
> Me too, those poor women getting killed in the stadiums really sucked big
time.
> Not to mention depriving them of any sorts of rights, voting or freedom of
> travel. The wanton destruction of ancient art (albeit religious) and
culture
> was utterly appalling. All in the name of religion too! Yeah,
theocracies
> really suck don't they? Oh, but you're assailing the US activities,
right?
> Yeah, that's right, let's let 'em go back to being a 14th century country
that
> harbored 21st century terrorists. Ones that actively espouse the
destruction of
> all forms of Western culture. Yep, that'd be a a heck of an improvement.
>
> Now, could we go about routing these bastards in a "kindler, gentler
fashion"?
> How about we harken back to WWII and how all the folks thought it was so
evil to
> have used the bomb on the Japanese? Oh, sorry, can't do that, all those
folks
> were grateful to have an end to the conflict, one which they didn't start.
The
> fact 50k-odd people had to get incinerated in the process was apparently a
price
> they were willing to pay. Strange but even with orders of magnitude
inflation
> of casualties it's still a pretty mild exercise.
>
> > It doesn't really take a conspiracy to make bad things happen. As in
WWI,
> > sometimes incompetents can do a pretty good job of starting a war.
>
> Yeah, especially when they're whipped into a frenzy with half-truths,
media
> fantasies and outright lies.
>
> > My nationalism is largely in response to some of the postings in this
group.
> > I guess "reaction" is a better word than response. One night I switched
modes
> from
> > FoRK-rant to reading Dave Winer saying "Sharon must go." Shut me right
up.
>
> Well, that's the turd in the punch bowl. Weblogger-based literacy.. that
> explains just sooo much.
>
> > I do notice a pretty steady drumbeat of anti-American nationalism on
> > the news lately too. Its mostly at the level of whining from
politicians,
> > and probably a jump in defense spending.
>
> It's no better or worse now that plenty of other times in the past. Go to
the
> library and read pages from the non-US papers in the 1970's. Just as full
of
> the same tripe you see today. Rewind back to 1930 and you'll see it
again,
> 1880, again, repeat until some history rubs off.
>
> > Not that we think we can be a threat to the alpha male, we just want him
to
> notice us once in a while
>
> Ah, now we get to it, testosterone poisoning, or lack thereof... Read up
on the
> Monroe doctrine sometime. We have laws here about not being the so-called
alpha
> male in geopolitics. So instead of invading military we invade
economically?
> Hmmm, that's a lot less worse than how Europe tried to do it.
> .
> > Maybe we have dreams of being at the front of the pack somewhere down
the
> line. Past military glory and war dead and all that.
> > Then there's the hockey - watch out for drunken Habs fans on the rampage
at
> the border crossings.
>
> And slowly the strength of the argument just dribbles away....
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From jeff@vertexdev.com Thu, 2 May 2002 19:46:47 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:46:47 -0700
From: Jeff Barr jeff@vertexdev.com
Subject: As It Will Be
That's how you sensitive types always try and get the babes.
You pretend like the rest of your gender are brutes but not, of
course, you, hoping to find a tender heart who thinks "at last,
a sensitive man."
:-)
Jeff;
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph S. Barrera III"
To: "carey"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: As It Will Be
> > Men. *eyeroll*
>
> Not me! I hate this shit.
>
> - Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 23:15:15 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 23:15:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]
--]In the end they decided: fuck it, let's just kill a bunch of them Japs.
--]
Do I have to post the Paton quote again? You win wars by killing the enemy
and breaking things until such time as they either cant or wont try to
kill you or break your things.
Unless your French. Then you build a half wall around apart of your
border and prented your invincible.
too funny, gettin advice about modern warfare from the french:)-
ANytime you want to put your money where your mouth is you pick the
wargame and we will get it on. GMT, Avalon Hill, SPI, Metagaming, we can
go ancient, modern, heck ill even go napolianic.. you name it, Ill
learn it and then proceed to go whorish all over your candy ass.
IN practice we becomae the students of our verbal musings.
So lets shelve the nationalism and just get down to it...me and you and a
wargame.
-tom
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 20:30:37 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:30:37 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: As It Will Be
Tom wrote:
> Unless your French. Then you build a half wall around apart of your
> border and prented your invincible.
You know, that's a perfect metaphor for ABM defence...
(I'm sure that's occurred to someone else before)
- Joe
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 23:29:44 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 23:29:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
--]Tom wrote:
--]> Unless your French. Then you build a half wall around apart of your
--]> border and prented your invincible.
--]
--]You know, that's a perfect metaphor for ABM defence...
--](I'm sure that's occurred to someone else before)
--]
I have npt played any great general ABM systems, only ones of focused
intent. An ABM should be, at most, a part of a larger system of defensive
methods...not the main and/or only one.
Anyway, until we can modify the sheild frequency we will still be
vulnerable to the borg attacks.
-tom(shift one column on the CRT)
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 20:40:52 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:40:52 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: As It Will Be
> -tom(shift one column on the CRT)
"Oh my darling...
Shift one column on the CRT if you want me;
Twice on the TTY if the answer is no"
(apologies to Tony Orlando and Dawn)
--
"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
Summer, salt and wine
For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
A velvet bed of nails"
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 20:44:24 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:44:24 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
Really honestly this time.
There's nothing Kana can do to make me stay.
I've already sent out about 15 resumes.
So if there's something out there that you know about,
please let me know... many bonus points if it's near
San Bruno/Pacfica/South San Francisco. (Which means
that again I will be looking at OpenDesign if they
will consider me.)
- Joe
--
"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
Summer, salt and wine
For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
A velvet bed of nails"
From jeff@vertexdev.com Thu, 2 May 2002 20:49:56 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:49:56 -0700
From: Jeff Barr jeff@vertexdev.com
Subject: As It Will Be
You know, in 10 years a CRT will be a total anachronism and
you will have to explain to your grandkids that you, too, once
owned one.
TTYs, well, let's just say that I once owned the 5-bit kind.
Today I explained the mysteries of an "8-Track" tape (the audio
kind) to my 12 year old. As we talked it turns out that he
thought that "LP discs" could handle video. I had to let
him down.
Jeff;
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph S. Barrera III"
To: "Tom"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: As It Will Be
> > -tom(shift one column on the CRT)
>
> "Oh my darling...
> Shift one column on the CRT if you want me;
> Twice on the TTY if the answer is no"
>
> (apologies to Tony Orlando and Dawn)
>
> --
> "For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
> Summer, salt and wine
> For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
> A velvet bed of nails"
>
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From tomwhore@slack.net Thu, 2 May 2002 23:47:09 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 23:47:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Jeff Barr wrote:
--]You know, in 10 years a CRT will be a total anachronism and
--]you will have to explain to your grandkids that you, too, once
--]owned one.
--]
Actualy, for me in this context CRT is a wargame term for Conflict
Resolution Table.
From beberg@mithral.com Thu, 2 May 2002 22:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 22:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam L. Beberg beberg@mithral.com
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> Really honestly this time. There's nothing Kana can do to make me stay.
> I've already sent out about 15 resumes. So if there's something out
> there that you know about, please let me know... many bonus points if
> it's near San Bruno/Pacfica/South San Francisco.
HAHAHHAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA
Man, you're funny.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 22:38:29 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:38:29 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: As It Will Be
> Today I explained the mysteries of an "8-Track" tape (the audio
> kind) to my 12 year old.
8-Track is easy. It's just a stereo 4-track. :-)
(I remember my parents having a 4-track Beatles album)
> As we talked it turns out that he
> thought that "LP discs" could handle video.
> I had to let him down.
My kids are a little more savvy about antique equipment.
But then again there's a lot of it hanging around the house.
E.g. there's a newly acquired IMSAI sitting in the entry way...
(gloat gloat)
- Joe
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 22:42:26 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:42:26 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
Adam L. Beberg wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
>
>>Really honestly this time. There's nothing Kana can do to make me stay.
>>I've already sent out about 15 resumes. So if there's something out
>>there that you know about, please let me know... many bonus points if
>>it's near San Bruno/Pacfica/South San Francisco.
>
> HAHAHHAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA
>
> Man, you're funny.
You don't think I can get a job around here?
And furthermore you find that funny?
Do you just live to piss people off, or what?
- Joe
--
"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
Summer, salt and wine
For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
A velvet bed of nails"
From beberg@mithral.com Thu, 2 May 2002 22:57:21 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 22:57:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam L. Beberg beberg@mithral.com
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> Adam L. Beberg wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 May 2002, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> >
> >>Really honestly this time. There's nothing Kana can do to make me stay.
> >>I've already sent out about 15 resumes. So if there's something out
> >>there that you know about, please let me know... many bonus points if
> >>it's near San Bruno/Pacfica/South San Francisco.
> >
> > HAHAHHAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA
> >
> > Man, you're funny.
>
> You don't think I can get a job around here?
> And furthermore you find that funny?
>
> Do you just live to piss people off, or what?
I think that if you think sending 15 resumes into stacks of 2000/day will
get you a job in the bay area you have a big shock coming and you should
keep the job you have now. Layoffs are still fast and furious if the number
of newly unemployed regulars at the LUG last night is any indication, not to
mention the steady flow of mass layoffs. My suggestion is find some hiring
managers and get them laid, that's the only way to go.
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 23:02:25 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:02:25 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
Well, Adam, thanks for the pep talk, and I'll let you know
how it goes, if/when I change jobs.
- Joe
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 20:09:58 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:09:58 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: As It Will Be
Jeff Barr wrote:
> That's how you sensitive types always try and get the babes.
>
> You pretend like the rest of your gender are brutes but not, of
> course, you, hoping to find a tender heart who thinks "at last,
> a sensitive man."
>
> :-)
If you knew how well it worked, you wouldn't use the smiley :-)
- Joe (Freak^H^H^H^H^HBabe magnet)
From fork_list@hotmail.com Thu, 2 May 2002 23:24:18 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 23:24:18 -0700
From: Mr. FoRK fork_list@hotmail.com
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam L. Beberg"
> My suggestion is find some hiring managers and get them laid, that's the
only way to go.
I think he's got a point.
And anyway, why OpenDesign? I heard they had a politicized, rabidly
in-fighting culture.
"Kill ourselves, then our Competitors!"
Then again, I could have gotten that wrong...
From joe@barrera.org Thu, 02 May 2002 23:31:23 -0700
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:31:23 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
Mr. FoRK wrote:
> And anyway, why OpenDesign? I heard they had a politicized,
> rabidly in-fighting culture.
> "Kill ourselves, then our Competitors!"
> Then again, I could have gotten that wrong...
Why? Largely because Ed Jung gave me a convincing pitch.
Yes, I've heard about the politics. But if that was true,
it may have changed by now (e.g. one faction may have won).
*shrug*
- Joe
--
Did a vehicle
Did a vehicle
Did a vehicle
Fly along the mountains
And find a place to park itself
Or did someone
Build a place
Or leave a space
For such a thing to land
From dl@silcom.com Fri, 03 May 2002 03:07:51 -0700
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 03:07:51 -0700
From: Dave Long dl@silcom.com
Subject: As It Will Be / {I,you,they}
> 'Well I can find figures that say my country kicks more ass than you!'
Pardon the faint praise, but at
least figures require more work
than pure flame, and have a bit
more potential for being of use
to someone in the future. (But
in this case, they do seem like
the last triplet given below)
-Dave
> "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
> you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Is that the Gita, recited while
standing on one leg?
:::::::::::::::::
> (C) Too much focus on the past, and unwillingness to let bygones
> be bygones. (D) A fundamental belief in the validity of discrimination along
> any of several dimensions. (E) Infectious memes that organize individuals
> into superorganisms endowed with a belief in their own moral superiority ...
>
> All of these things are problems, and humans can choose to let go of such
> primitive, outdated beliefs or cling to them and suffer the consequences.
I may agree with the last statement,
but I must also point out that it:
arguably shows (C)-behaviour,
plausibly shows (E)-behaviour, and
definitely shows (D)-behaviour.
Have we played {I,you,they} yet on
FoRK?* It is a word game based on
making triplets of the form:
+ I have rapid time-to-market
+ you rush releases
+ they ship buggy, unusable product
-or-
+ I enforce the 1st commandment
+ you root out heresy
+ they disobey the 6th
Now, the trick is to recast that
original statement so that it is
clearly not reminiscent of:
+ my beliefs are superior
+ your beliefs are tolerable
+ their beliefs are primitive and outdated
> Is this 'relativism' that I keep hearing about? (If not, please educate
> me on the difference.)
The difference is that Mr. Turpin
has performed the trick, by making
the statement in a context where
he demonstrates that some beliefs
are both primitive (because they
have been around since well before
the dawn of history) and outdated
(because the take-home message of
the 20th century was that we have
gotten far better at killing each
other than we have at not killing
each other).
Backing up our assertions might
only lead to:
+ I make rational arguments
+ your premises are unsound
+ they rationalize their beliefs
but it at least makes it clear
that the argument is advanced
on grounds which are easier to
(in)validate than any implicit
assumptions of superiority.
-Dave
* is this a rhetorical question,
or is this a rhetorical question?
From garym@canada.com 03 May 2002 07:55:32 -0400
Date: 03 May 2002 07:55:32 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy garym@canada.com
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
>>>>> "A" == Adam L Beberg writes:
>> You don't think I can get a job around here? And furthermore
>> you find that funny?
A> I think that if you think sending 15 resumes into stacks of
A> 2000/day will get you a job in the bay area you have a big
A> shock coming and you should keep the job you have now.
Fer crissakes, get with it and go get yerself de-jobbed: Become a
small business revolutionary entrepreneurial free-agent nanocorp,
and do it now while you still have your health.
http://sohodojo.com
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Innovations Through Open Source Systems: http://www.teledyn.com
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 14:55:28 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:55:28 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be / {I,you,they}
* I justly criticize claims with which I find fault.
* YOU just like to complain.
* THEY never stop bitching about everything.
=:-)
R
From garym@canada.com 03 May 2002 08:51:07 -0400
Date: 03 May 2002 08:51:07 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy garym@canada.com
Subject: DCS (Re: Jargon Coin: Bubble-Hangover)
>>>>> "S" == Stephen D Williams writes:
S> Bubble-Hangover:
S> The aftereffects of working for, starting, running, or
S> investing time, money, and resources in a Bubble-Era Internet
S> Startup. These effects include drastic loss of net worth (or
S> gain of debt), burnout, need for stability, and sometimes a
S> loss of interest in computer technology.
Geez, what's it called when it enters it's third decade? Chronic
BS Fatigue Syndrome? I'm still in recovery over the mid-80's bubble.
I'm looking for a vehicle, I'm looking for a ride
I'm looking for a party, I'm looking for a side
I'm looking for the treason that I knew in '65
Beware the sound mixture of 1984
Come see, come see, remember me?
We played love all my movie roll
You said it would last, but I guess we've grown
In 1984, who could ask for more
Every time a contract is done, finally fait complete, wrapped up,
signed sealed delivered and in the can (like right now) I start to
meander through the pleas to own me outright. Do they _really_ think
anyone stupid enough to believe a tenth of their HR BS would make even
a semi adequate employee? Why are they _all_ so afraid of being
honest? (ok, maybe not all, but a good 99.99% because 5-nines is a
myth)
And the streets are full of brass men,
bent on getting hung and buried
And the legendary curtains are drawn 'round baby bankrupt,
who sucks you while you're sleeping
It's the theater of financiers,
count them, fifteen 'round the table,
white and dressed to kill
Why do I do it? I don't know: Mostly I just get mad, mercilessly
berate a few headhunters ("plays well with others" never appears in my
resume) and go slam my fingers in the car door in penance.
All the way from Washington
Her breadwinner begs of the bathroom floor
"We live for just these twenty years
Do we have to die for the fifty more"
Yeah, I've succumbed a few times, but each time, just /after/ I sign
the BS-sheet (ahem, er, "employment contract") it's like, y'know when
just _after_ you take that next hit of acid and the back of your whole
jaw suddenly screams out "you didn't want to do this anymore"?
In the year of the scavenger, season of the bitch
Sashay on the board-walk, scurry to the ditch
Just another future song, lonely little Keats
There's gonna be sorrow, try and wake up tomorrow
And then, whether as employee or contractor, after each contract
(which, since '78, I've always sworn will be my last) I tally the
debts, shovel the garbage from the office floor, salve the ego burns,
get my eyes checked, pick up the shattered shards of my personal life
and lo, yes, the very last thing on earth that interests me is
anything to do with geeky misgadgetry, buzzword phallicies and
hype-head technology.
And then ... I get an idea ... and ... well ... what if ... hmmm ...
ooo ... yes ... yes baby, YES!
Hmmm ... Maybe it should be called Digital Co-dependence Syndrome.
From baisley@alumni.rice.edu Fri, 03 May 2002 08:19:19 -0500
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 08:19:19 -0500
From: Wayne Baisley baisley@alumni.rice.edu
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
> Shouldn't that be "Beat _me_ daddy, eight to the bar"? (Tommy Dorsey?)
Naturally, I started there, but that yields:
It has the effect to me in the papa, eight with the team of employees.
Not the original:
the bat, papa, eight with the team of employees
I've tried some other variations/misspellings like:
bea me daddy, eight to the bar ->
the papa of him makes I happy, eight with the team of employees
be at me daddy, eight to the bar ->
you he are with me the papa, eight with the team of employees
beet me daddy, eight to the bar ->
papa of beets I, eight with the team of employees
but to Noah Vale. Perhaps Matt would like to rephrase the question?
Just say no to Le Pen ->
Word straight-line not with the FEATHER/SPRING
Cheers,
Wayne
To the times it does not work to everything.
From udhay@pobox.com Fri, 03 May 2002 17:55:44 +0530
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 17:55:44 +0530
From: Udhay Shankar N udhay@pobox.com
Subject: 10x the translation = no sense
At 09:49 AM 5/1/02 -0700, Paul Prescod wrote:
>It might be interesting if you lined up ten professional translators and
>had them do the same.
This is actually pretty close to the basic idea behind Hofstadter's _Le Ton
Beau De Marot_.
Udhay
--
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
God is silent. Now if we can only get Man to shut up.
From test@sohu.com Fri, 3 May 2002 23:20:50 +0900
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:20:50 +0900
From: richard test@sohu.com
Subject: test
test
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 10:22:31 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:22:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be / {I,you,they}
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]* I justly criticize claims with which I find fault.
And you run away from a straight up challange of proving your supposed
tactical, strategic and historical skills against little ol me. Heck I
cant evenz speelz right, so I should be a push over.
Come on, for the honor of French Fries, French Dressing and French Toast.
You, Me and a wargame.
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 17:07:38 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:07:38 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be / {I,you,they}
Sir Whore wrote:
>And you run away from a straight up challange of proving your supposed
>tactical, strategic and historical skills against little ol me. [...]
>You, Me and a wargame.
Yawn. I'm so interested in your challenge. No really.
But I get to choose the weapons... axes in a dark cellar?
Actually, I've already enjoyed as much of this as I can stand.
Bye,
Rob.
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Game time or shame time?
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]Actually, I've already enjoyed as much of this as I can stand.
--]
You dont get it, do you? I have asked you to step up and show your self
proclaimed skill at tactics/ strategy/geohistorical accumen by using any
one of a dozen established simulations. These are freindly games that
simulate various histroical/geopolitical/tactical events. If you need help
in finding these simulations you can take a look at www.consimworld.com or
grognard.com or even countermoves.blogspot.com
We could tackle a Korean flavored historical situation..
http://www.gmtgames.com/crko/gmtcrko0.htm
or we could battle over the pretty much any pre gun poweder era conflict
with Ancients, this being a freely available game..
http://www.net-gate.com/~mpnagel/ancients/ancients.htm
or we could take on the Roundheads in the battle of Winceby..
http://www.magweb.com/sample/sced/5wincrul.htm
or something on a smaller scale, like the fight of Edson's Ridge..
http://pbem.brainiac.com/erpbem.htm
or if your new to wargame simulation we could start out with a simpler
game aimed at the fledgling gamer, Battle For Moscow comes to mind....
http://grognard.com/bfm/game.html
or if you wanted something smaller we could do any one of the 11 newly
created microgames entered into the Microgame Desgin Contest of 2002...
http://countermoves.blogspot.com/
Rather than take up the call and show that in practice you are as good as
in thinking you yawn, make a very weak statement and then proclaim you are
above it all and walk away.
Is this Robert Harley's Maginot Line?
What are you afraid of, that in putting your supposed knoweldge to a
challenge you will fall down and go boom? Maybe its just these
simulations are beyond your scope of understanding.
Here is your chance RH, a chance to show that you are indeed as good as
you say, a chance to show that you are not all talk. Are you? Are you that
damn good?
Step up, you have nothing to loose and perhaps and enjoyable game to
learn. Step up, if you can. Or is it Game Over before it even starts?
Time to play the game.
-tom
From carey@tstonramp.com Fri, 3 May 2002 08:55:51 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:55:51 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: More bits for Travelman :)
Saw this on researchbuzz.com (My how I love researchbuzz....)
but seriously, go check out: http://www.stateguide.com
This is purty. Its essentially a huge list of links, organized by state
and major city. FOr instance, my query on Concord, NH (where I plan on
going to law school in a few months :) led me to here:
http://www.stateguide.com/nh/Concord/
Very freaking useful if you're just trying to scout out an area for possible
travel/living later :) They even have links to finding jobs and apartments
:) WOO HOO.
As researchbuzz noted, its not high on the graphical content (i.e., not a
pretty travel website) but its function makes up for all of that :)
(By the way, I -REALLY- love researchbuzz. Too many neat bits to share)
*pats nick (a lurking forker) for the reccommendation*
BYE!
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Down with Disney, Up with Flint
http://www.baen.com/library/
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 17:49:32 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:49:32 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Homicide Rates Re: As It Will Be
Gordon Mohr wrote:
>Can you provide a source for these figures?
>(There are a lot of iffy, inaccurate, outdated, or incomparable stats
>floating around the net --
They are average homicide rates over about twenty years ending in the
late nineties (slightly different dates for different countries).
The US figure of 8.3 is given by the US Dept of Justice Bureau of
Justice Statistics:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm
I can't remember where I found the EU ones, but similar figures over
a longer period can be found on page 7 of this report:
http://www.om.fi/optula/uploads/ff18c.pdf
>the US murder rates have plummetted over the past decade.)
I believe that homicide totals also dropped, from the high twenty
thousands to the low twenty thousands.
The population given for the US is recent, but those for the EU
countries are a few years old. There are now about 5 million more
people in the EU.
>2) Americans tend not to commit suicide as much as
>Europeans. From the WHO [2]:
>[...]
>So taking for example, the US versus France -- if we in fact have 4 more
>murders per 100K [...] but 8 fewer suicides, who's to say what's better?
Well, 7 more homicides versus 8 fewer suicides according to the figures
above. Suicide is definitely a big problem, although I'm sure I would
prefer to fall asleep to an overdose of sodium pentobarbital at a time
of my choosing, than to suddenly be bludgeoned to death by a crack-head
looking for a few bucks...
Bye,
Rob.
.-. .-.
/ \ .-. .-. / \
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
\ / `-' `-' \ /
`-' `-'
From owen@permafrost.net Fri, 3 May 2002 12:51:07 -0300
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:51:07 -0300
From: Owen Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: Game time or shame time?
Its been a long time since I dragged out cardboard maps and dusty old
counters, dude.
I'd prefer a decent computer-based wargame. I have TOAW2 and its pretty
good....
http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/toaw2.asp
Owen
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
>
> --]Actually, I've already enjoyed as much of this as I can stand.
> --]
>
> You dont get it, do you? I have asked you to step up and show your self
> proclaimed skill at tactics/ strategy/geohistorical accumen by using any
> one of a dozen established simulations. These are freindly games that
> simulate various histroical/geopolitical/tactical events. If you need help
> in finding these simulations you can take a look at www.consimworld.com or
> grognard.com or even countermoves.blogspot.com
>
> We could tackle a Korean flavored historical situation..
> http://www.gmtgames.com/crko/gmtcrko0.htm
>
> or we could battle over the pretty much any pre gun poweder era conflict
> with Ancients, this being a freely available game..
> http://www.net-gate.com/~mpnagel/ancients/ancients.htm
>
> or we could take on the Roundheads in the battle of Winceby..
> http://www.magweb.com/sample/sced/5wincrul.htm
>
> or something on a smaller scale, like the fight of Edson's Ridge..
> http://pbem.brainiac.com/erpbem.htm
>
> or if your new to wargame simulation we could start out with a simpler
> game aimed at the fledgling gamer, Battle For Moscow comes to mind....
> http://grognard.com/bfm/game.html
>
> or if you wanted something smaller we could do any one of the 11 newly
> created microgames entered into the Microgame Desgin Contest of 2002...
> http://countermoves.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Rather than take up the call and show that in practice you are as good as
> in thinking you yawn, make a very weak statement and then proclaim you are
> above it all and walk away.
>
> Is this Robert Harley's Maginot Line?
>
> What are you afraid of, that in putting your supposed knoweldge to a
> challenge you will fall down and go boom? Maybe its just these
> simulations are beyond your scope of understanding.
>
>
> Here is your chance RH, a chance to show that you are indeed as good as
> you say, a chance to show that you are not all talk. Are you? Are you that
> damn good?
>
> Step up, you have nothing to loose and perhaps and enjoyable game to
> learn. Step up, if you can. Or is it Game Over before it even starts?
>
> Time to play the game.
>
>
> -tom
>
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 17:55:56 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:55:56 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Game time or shame time?
>You dont get it, do you?
What I get is that you are spouting laughably childish drivel.
>I have asked you to step up and show your self proclaimed skill at
>tactics/strategy/geohistorical accumen
Where and when did I proclaim such skill? It's all in your mind, dude.
>What are you afraid of
>Here is your chance
>Step up
>Time to play the game.
I'll let you know when somebody pays me to give a shit and stuff.
>Or is it Game Over before it even starts?
Yeah, it's over. You win. Happy? Now run along to your gloating room.
R
From phil@lindsay.net 02 May 2002 17:49:37 -0700
Date: 02 May 2002 17:49:37 -0700
From: Phillip A. Lindsay phil@lindsay.net
Subject: As It Will Be
--=-qOjWyQGRe3z25ktKMOfs
Content-Type: text/plain
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On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 17:18, Robert Harley wrote:
>=20
> In the end they decided: fuck it, let's just kill a bunch of them Japs.
>=20
Or to be more accurate, they agreed that dropping the bomb with a
warning on city would end the war more quickly saving American lives.=20
And that judgment proved wrong, requiring another bomb.
-phil (phil@lindsay.net)
--=-qOjWyQGRe3z25ktKMOfs
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From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 12:34:49 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:34:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Game time or shame time?
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]>You dont get it, do you?
--]
--]What I get is that you are spouting laughably childish drivel.
Awwwwww. Little Bobby gonna cry now? Boo Le Hoo
--]>I have asked you to step up and show your self proclaimed skill at
--]>tactics/strategy/geohistorical accumen
--]
--]Where and when did I proclaim such skill? It's all in your mind, dude.
You spout geopolitical/historical edicts as well as making various
critques of strategy and tatics in war time . The last couple of days
worth of posts is enough if you want me to repost them back to you.
So now comes the question, are you just spouting to see yourself on your
own screen, or do you have the testicular fortitude to show us your
thoughts in action?
--]I'll let you know when somebody pays me to give a shit and stuff.
Awwww. hes pouting again now that hes been called on his spoutings.
Come on man, show a little bit of self worth. If all you have said over
the last few threads are things you belive in and are secure with, then
you will be able to play a little old historic simulation and show us in
action what you say in words.
--]>Or is it Game Over before it even starts?
--]
--]Yeah, it's over. You win. Happy? Now run along to your gloating room.
I aint going nowhere. Here I stand happily reminding you that when you
were given a chance to show in action what you say in words you fell
apart, ran away, and become le yellow coward who scurried behind your
mental maginot line and waited for the occupation.
Historicaly almost exactly the outcome one would expect from the french:)-
If you ver find your self worth again, the offer stands.
-tom
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 12:37:04 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:37:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On 2 May 2002, Phillip A. Lindsay wrote:
--]On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 17:18, Robert Harley wrote:
--]>
--]> In the end they decided: fuck it, let's just kill a bunch of them Japs.
--]>
--]Or to be more accurate, they agreed that dropping the bomb with a
--]warning on city would end the war more quickly saving American lives.
--]And that judgment proved wrong, requiring another bomb.
Of course RH would do it all differnt if given a chance. Oh wait, he was
given the chance and instead he turned tail and ran:)-
In the thick of an event decissions are made that in the hindsight of 50
or so years can be sliced and diced all sorts of ways. But the real test
is making those decissions, even simulatedly so, in the thick of things.
"Word to your moms,
Im dropping da bombs"
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 12:43:02 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:43:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Game time or shame time?
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Owen Byrne wrote:
--]Its been a long time since I dragged out cardboard maps and dusty old
--]counters, dude.
--]I'd prefer a decent computer-based wargame. I have TOAW2 and its pretty
--]good....
--]http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/toaw2.asp
Got it:)-
TalonSoft does an amazing job of capturing the wargame feel on the
computer.
You may also want to check out some fo the Play By Email and PLay By Net
mediators that let you use grpahica elements of the old baord games
themselves to play them over the net.
http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/
http://digilander.iol.it/zak965/thoth/
Either way, If you up for a game Id would be honored to play you.
A worthy opponent is always treasured. We may disagree on but at least we
can agree to pit our ideas and see what happens.
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 18:58:12 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:58:12 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Game time or shame time?
>Awwwwww. Little Bobby gonna cry now? Boo Le Hoo [etc]
I'm shattered, veritably shattered, by your devastating logic.
How could any of the points I make possibly withstand such a
methodical point-by-point takedown? My hat off to you sir.
L8r,
Rob.
PS: To paraphrase from Godfather: it's only FoRK, it's not personal.
.-. .-.
/ \ .-. .-. / \
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
\ / `-' `-' \ /
`-' `-'
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 13:19:27 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:19:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Game time or shame time?
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]>Awwwwww. Little Bobby gonna cry now? Boo Le Hoo [etc]
--]
--]I'm shattered, veritably shattered, by your devastating logic.
--]How could any of the points I make possibly withstand such a
--]methodical point-by-point takedown? My hat off to you sir.
--]
It was pretty easy, I went around.
Anyway, enough of the side banter. Are you in or out of a wargame. TOAW II
is fine by me if you want a computer based one, though the engine does not
get into ecomonics and other cool points.
If you want something with a little more meat on it, or tofu if your not
into meat, try lookingover Cyberboard or Thoth (links is the previous
post) and pick out any of the paper ones.
Either way I would love to drop all the talk and get into the action.
From joe@barrera.org Fri, 03 May 2002 10:34:03 -0700
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:34:03 -0700
From: Joseph S. Barrera III joe@barrera.org
Subject: Game time or shame time?
This has to be one of the lamest threads I've ever read.
- Joe
P.S. Hitler.
--
"For a toxic thing you sure smell pretty
Summer, salt and wine
For a quiet boy you sure talk dirty
A velvet bed of nails"
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 10:39:03 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:39:03 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
Well, I have a TiVo and I use it to start Enterprise late, then skip all
the commercials and end 'on time'.
Yet the Turner CEO has a point. Someone has to pay for putting
Enterprise out, and if a significant number of the 2.5 million to 5.0
million people watching it don't watch the commercials then it won't get
made.
Ad supporting media certainly works better than the BBS taxing every
television in Britain, even if you only use it to watch non-English
video tapes.
The transaction costs in billing 2.5 million people for 40 minutes of
entertainment are pretty stiff. So is the transition to such a model.
Most people would probably prefer to get their entertainment from the TV
without paying cash for it.
Yack from the ivory towers of techland if you wish, but don't pretend
most of the rest of the country would appreciate your efforts.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Owen
> Byrne
> SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO
From carey@tstonramp.com Fri, 3 May 2002 10:53:33 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:53:33 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
> Yack from the ivory towers of techland if you wish, but don't pretend
> most of the rest of the country would appreciate your efforts.
>
K, John.. Just so we're clear, when the Hollywood types and the CEOs from
the major networks petition congress for a criminal sanction for taking a
shit during the commercial break, I'll let the Congresscirtters know you're
100% behind it.
After all, the rest of the country would appreciate the dictates of a few.
Mmhmm..
Really folks. LEts just go all out... we could get so much more
accomplished with telescreens (ala 1984). IT would make the Conglomerate
happy, the security freaks happy, the gubbies happy and damn near every
other lobby group that seems to have any clout in the political fore.
eesh.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
> Owen
> > Byrne
>
>
> > SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
>
From mike@techdirt.com Fri, 03 May 2002 10:57:04 -0700
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:57:04 -0700
From: Mike Masnick mike@techdirt.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
I have to admit that I don't understand these arguments that consumers make
supporting the entertainment industry. Entertainment is a business - and
it is up to the business people they hire to figure out a business model
that makes them money under the conditions of the marketplace.
It's not our responsibility as consumers to figure out how to make them
money. We do what we want - which, in this case, appears to be watching TV
without commercials. It's up to the industry itself to figure out how to
deal with that. Generally speaking, you have a better business if you give
consumers what they want - rather than legally forcing them to deal with
crap they don't want.
Anyway, if the rest of the country "doesn't appreciate" the efforts people
in "techland" are making so they can watch TV without commercials then they
won't skip over commercials, will they?
You can argue all you want that it's bad for television, but it doesn't
deal with the realities of what consumers want. They want to skip
commercials, and here's the technology that provides that. If the TV
industry was smart, they'd be working on ways to adapt to that changing
landscape (and, it seems, some advertisers and broadcasters are looking
into different ideas).
-Mike
At 10:39 AM 5/3/02 -0700, John Hall wrote:
>Well, I have a TiVo and I use it to start Enterprise late, then skip all
>the commercials and end 'on time'.
>
>Yet the Turner CEO has a point. Someone has to pay for putting
>Enterprise out, and if a significant number of the 2.5 million to 5.0
>million people watching it don't watch the commercials then it won't get
>made.
>
>Ad supporting media certainly works better than the BBS taxing every
>television in Britain, even if you only use it to watch non-English
>video tapes.
>
>The transaction costs in billing 2.5 million people for 40 minutes of
>entertainment are pretty stiff. So is the transition to such a model.
>Most people would probably prefer to get their entertainment from the TV
>without paying cash for it.
>
>Yack from the ivory towers of techland if you wish, but don't pretend
>most of the rest of the country would appreciate your efforts.
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
>Owen
>> Byrne
>
>
>> SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO
>
>
>
>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
>
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 11:07:02 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 11:07:02 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
Oh rubbish. I'm just not worried about such a bill being proposed.
A TiVo at least requires a hand on the remote to skip the commericals.
As a practical matter, I still see them, just at 2X to 4X without sound.
It is machines that would be cheap and automatically strip the
commericals that would start doing actual damage.
You'll know when most broadcast markets go to 24/7 talk shows and 'Cops'
reality shows. They have the benefit of being cheap.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: carey [mailto:carey@tstonramp.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:54 AM
> To: johnhall@evergo.net
> Cc: fork@xent.com
> Subject: Re: Tivo is Theft
>
> > Yack from the ivory towers of techland if you wish, but don't
pretend
> > most of the rest of the country would appreciate your efforts.
> >
>
> K, John.. Just so we're clear, when the Hollywood types and the CEOs
from
> the major networks petition congress for a criminal sanction for
taking a
> shit during the commercial break, I'll let the Congresscirtters know
> you're
> 100% behind it.
>
> After all, the rest of the country would appreciate the dictates of a
few.
> Mmhmm..
>
> Really folks. LEts just go all out... we could get so much more
> accomplished with telescreens (ala 1984). IT would make the
Conglomerate
> happy, the security freaks happy, the gubbies happy and damn near
every
> other lobby group that seems to have any clout in the political fore.
>
>
> eesh.
>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf
Of
> > Owen
> > > Byrne
> >
> >
> > > SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO
> >
> >
> >
> > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> >
> >
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 11:26:55 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 11:26:55 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
Consumers want stuff for less, preferably free. It isn't that they
don't want commercial free programs (they do). But they don't want the
programs to go away, either. If the programs go away they won't be
happy.
In this particular case, designing a box that screens out commercials
doesn't seem to be terribly different from designing a box that
descrambles cable signals. Outlawing either box isn't legally forcing
them to deal with crap they don't want -- it is forcing them to obtain
what they want on the terms offered by the vendor -- or do without.
Customers ALWAYS have the ability to avoid the crap they don't want.
Don't turn on the TV set.
Yes, business will look at dealing with the changing landscape. That
doesn't mean that the ways they will deal with it are palatable to the
people who were hoping to sneak a free peek.
Broadcast media is a classic 'Public Good'. Advertising supported
broadcast is the only model I can think of, off hand, that has ever
allowed a Public Good to be produced outside of government control. I'm
not sure there IS a different business model that allows
non-governmental supply.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Masnick [mailto:mike@techdirt.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:57 AM
> To: johnhall@evergo.net; fork@xent.com
> Subject: RE: Tivo is Theft
>
> I have to admit that I don't understand these arguments that consumers
> make
> supporting the entertainment industry. Entertainment is a business -
and
> it is up to the business people they hire to figure out a business
model
> that makes them money under the conditions of the marketplace.
>
> It's not our responsibility as consumers to figure out how to make
them
> money. We do what we want - which, in this case, appears to be
watching
> TV
> without commercials. It's up to the industry itself to figure out how
to
> deal with that. Generally speaking, you have a better business if you
> give
> consumers what they want - rather than legally forcing them to deal
with
> crap they don't want.
>
> Anyway, if the rest of the country "doesn't appreciate" the efforts
people
> in "techland" are making so they can watch TV without commercials then
> they
> won't skip over commercials, will they?
>
> You can argue all you want that it's bad for television, but it
doesn't
> deal with the realities of what consumers want. They want to skip
> commercials, and here's the technology that provides that. If the TV
> industry was smart, they'd be working on ways to adapt to that
changing
> landscape (and, it seems, some advertisers and broadcasters are
looking
> into different ideas).
>
> -Mike
>
> At 10:39 AM 5/3/02 -0700, John Hall wrote:
> >Well, I have a TiVo and I use it to start Enterprise late, then skip
all
> >the commercials and end 'on time'.
> >
> >Yet the Turner CEO has a point. Someone has to pay for putting
> >Enterprise out, and if a significant number of the 2.5 million to 5.0
> >million people watching it don't watch the commercials then it won't
get
> >made.
> >
> >Ad supporting media certainly works better than the BBS taxing every
> >television in Britain, even if you only use it to watch non-English
> >video tapes.
> >
> >The transaction costs in billing 2.5 million people for 40 minutes of
> >entertainment are pretty stiff. So is the transition to such a
model.
> >Most people would probably prefer to get their entertainment from the
TV
> >without paying cash for it.
> >
> >Yack from the ivory towers of techland if you wish, but don't pretend
> >most of the rest of the country would appreciate your efforts.
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
> >Owen
> >> Byrne
> >
> >
> >> SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO
> >
> >
> >
> >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> >
> >
From carey@tstonramp.com Fri, 3 May 2002 11:39:27 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 11:39:27 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
One final bit (at least from me on this)
I dont' think people generally have a problem with commercials per se. I
mean, take the superbowl commercials for instance. I knwo folks (myself
guiltily included) who watch the game more for the commercial breaks than
the plays themselves. I personally tend to watch because the superbowl
seems to be the time where they actually try something new in the world of
commercials -- creativity. They pander to some of the higher senses,
rather than just selling in the same system that they do on a day to day
basis. Sometimes, the commercials are even intelligent, instead of
lowering the masses to one slobbering stupid common demoninator.
They get the eyeballs then.
And they get the eyeballs generally when they put out quality.
Don't believe me? Look at the numerous websites that exist JUST previewing
or showing off commercials. (www.ads.com is the newest in this list. Very
creative). Don't forget adcritic and such.
Google turned out quite a few links to tv commercial sites -- devoted to
just showing the ads.
http://www.clipland.com/index_tvc.shtml
http://www.tourismio.com/client/funny/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Commercials%22+
I have more of a feeling that people are skipping the ads less to spite big
media, and more to send a signal: Put something on worth watching, dumbass.
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Down with Disney, Up with Flint
http://www.baen.com/library/
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
----- Original Message -----
From: "carey"
To:
Cc:
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Tivo is Theft
> > Yack from the ivory towers of techland if you wish, but don't pretend
> > most of the rest of the country would appreciate your efforts.
> >
>
> K, John.. Just so we're clear, when the Hollywood types and the CEOs from
> the major networks petition congress for a criminal sanction for taking a
> shit during the commercial break, I'll let the Congresscirtters know
you're
> 100% behind it.
>
> After all, the rest of the country would appreciate the dictates of a few.
> Mmhmm..
>
> Really folks. LEts just go all out... we could get so much more
> accomplished with telescreens (ala 1984). IT would make the Conglomerate
> happy, the security freaks happy, the gubbies happy and damn near every
> other lobby group that seems to have any clout in the political fore.
>
>
> eesh.
>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
> > Owen
> > > Byrne
> >
> >
> > > SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO
> >
> >
> >
> > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> >
> >
>
From bill@whump.com Fri, 3 May 2002 11:59:15 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 11:59:15 -0700
From: Bill Humphries bill@whump.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Friday, May 3, 2002, at 11:39 AM, carey wrote:
> I have more of a feeling that people are skipping the ads less to spite
> big
> media, and more to send a signal: Put something on worth watching,
> dumbass.
The last time I worked for Hollywood types, I was reminded of the awful
truth of the business when our VP of Sales addressed the the developers,
writers and artists as the "the people who make the crap that goes between
the ads."
Advertising is our highest art right now. It's where the cleverest and
smartest designers and artists go because that's where the money is. There'
s better plot, story and directing in a thirty second spot for a Nissan
Altima than forty minutes of TV drama. It has to be better, the spot has
to get you to buy an Altima. "Enterprise" just has to get you to watch the
Altima ad.
This shouldn't be new bits to the list.
What's fascinating is how TV becomes cheaply produced reality shows (which
my friend Mike's company loves, because he leases Avid suites to cut all
those hours of digital video down to twenty minutes of cat fights) but the
marketing and advertising of those cat fights is of a higher quality than
the shows themselves.
I'd love to see a world of DIY media, where people take their digital
recorders, iBooks and iMovies to make and share. But I have a feeling the
world will be more like "BMWfilms.com" where directors make high art with
a 3 Series as the money shot. Better that than a federal mandate to do our
part for G-D and Country by watching "Friends" without a potty break.
-- whump
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 15:15:44 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:15:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Fri, 3 May 2002, John Hall wrote:
--]In this particular case, designing a box that screens out commercials
--]doesn't seem to be terribly different from designing a box that
--]descrambles cable signals. Outlawing either box isn't legally forcing
--]them to deal with crap they don't want -- it is forcing them to obtain
--]what they want on the terms offered by the vendor -- or do without.
--]Customers ALWAYS have the ability to avoid the crap they don't want.
--]Don't turn on the TV set.
--]
Are you saying that by watching any part of a content stream I am bound to
watch it all? IS this really an all or nothing situation.
When I watch a show on commercial T streams I more than likely turn away
from the ads, that is when an Ad comes on I click to another stream.
Automating this is criminal?
Comparing this to cable desccrambling is dead off the mark. I can not
descramble a cable sctream by hand, I can view around ads by hand. The
automating of that is not the same as descrambling a cable stream.
--]Broadcast media is a classic 'Public Good'.
The idea that interupt based marketing is the only mehtod that works is a
sure sign your just not looking at things wide enough. Draw up the scope,
think of things like in show product placement, cojoining of content and
ads such that there is no break in the flow of the content, event
sponsorship, branding though giveaways and chachkies. There are a ton of
ways oridcuts can be assotaied with a content stream in order to gain the
content streams viewers focus for advertizing.
Inisde outisde yo living la vida advertiso
-tom
From lgonze@localhost.localdomain Fri, 3 May 2002 15:32:38 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:32:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lucas Gonze lgonze@localhost.localdomain
Subject: Tivo is Theft
> In this particular case, designing a box that screens out commercials
> doesn't seem to be terribly different from designing a box that
> descrambles cable signals. Outlawing either box isn't legally forcing
> them to deal with crap they don't want -- it is forcing them to obtain
> what they want on the terms offered by the vendor -- or do without.
> Customers ALWAYS have the ability to avoid the crap they don't want.
> Don't turn on the TV set.
What's so special about this set of terms that it deserves to be written
into law? Normally terms are whatever vendors can get. If these vendors
can't get the terms they want, tough luck. There's no reason why the law
should do their negotiating for them.
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 15:37:18 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:37:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Bound and Determined to change jobs
Is Google still looking for folks?
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 13:22:10 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:22:10 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
You aren't bound to watch the entire content stream. You aren't now, as
you point out.
But you want something more. You want to change the content stream.
That descrambling is only feasible when automated shouldn't make it
fundamentally different.
Other methods of advertising are used concurrently. That they haven't
displaced interrupt marketing should say something. Especially when
people are known to be hostile to it.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Tom
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:16 PM
> To: John Hall
> Cc: fork@xent.com
> Subject: RE: Tivo is Theft
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, John Hall wrote:
>
> --]In this particular case, designing a box that screens out
commercials
> --]doesn't seem to be terribly different from designing a box that
> --]descrambles cable signals. Outlawing either box isn't legally
forcing
> --]them to deal with crap they don't want -- it is forcing them to
obtain
> --]what they want on the terms offered by the vendor -- or do without.
> --]Customers ALWAYS have the ability to avoid the crap they don't
want.
> --]Don't turn on the TV set.
> --]
>
> Are you saying that by watching any part of a content stream I am
bound to
> watch it all? IS this really an all or nothing situation.
>
> When I watch a show on commercial T streams I more than likely turn
away
> from the ads, that is when an Ad comes on I click to another stream.
>
> Automating this is criminal?
>
> Comparing this to cable desccrambling is dead off the mark. I can not
> descramble a cable sctream by hand, I can view around ads by hand. The
> automating of that is not the same as descrambling a cable stream.
>
>
> --]Broadcast media is a classic 'Public Good'.
>
> The idea that interupt based marketing is the only mehtod that works
is a
> sure sign your just not looking at things wide enough. Draw up the
scope,
> think of things like in show product placement, cojoining of content
and
> ads such that there is no break in the flow of the content, event
> sponsorship, branding though giveaways and chachkies. There are a ton
of
> ways oridcuts can be assotaied with a content stream in order to gain
the
> content streams viewers focus for advertizing.
>
> Inisde outisde yo living la vida advertiso
>
> -tom
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 13:30:45 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:30:45 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
In normal situations if venders can't get their terms, then the customer
doesn't wind up with the product. It is the ability to get the goods
without following the terms which causes the problem.
And isn't that the basic definition of modern piracy anyway? Getting
the goods without following the terms.
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Lucas
> Gonze
>
> What's so special about this set of terms that it deserves to be
written
> into law? Normally terms are whatever vendors can get. If these
vendors
> can't get the terms they want, tough luck. There's no reason why the
law
> should do their negotiating for them.
>
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 16:27:27 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:27:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Fri, 3 May 2002, John Hall wrote:
--]You aren't bound to watch the entire content stream. You aren't now, as
--]you point out.
--]
--]But you want something more. You want to change the content stream.
Nope. I simply want to be able to see the parts of the stream I want.
By turnign the channel when an ad comes on, have I altered the stream
illegaly?
Unlike poor little alex who was strapped down tight with his glozzies
cranked wide watching the horrors of bog all synched with the blessed
ludwig van..now there was a lad who had to watch it all and had no
recourse to blink, click or turn away from the aprts he did not want to
watch.
--]displaced interrupt marketing should say something. Especially when
--]people are known to be hostile to it.
Yes, it says da pusha man wants the old dope to draw the same green.
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 13:47:34 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:47:34 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
No, click away. But that isn't what they are complaining about. (Or
maybe they are, but I don't think they have a beef).
But electronically removing selected parts of the stream is altering it.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Tom
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:27 PM
>
> Nope. I simply want to be able to see the parts of the stream I want.
> By turnign the channel when an ad comes on, have I altered the stream
> illegaly?
>
From lgonze@localhost.localdomain Fri, 3 May 2002 16:47:56 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:47:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lucas Gonze lgonze@localhost.localdomain
Subject: Tivo is Theft
John Hall said:
> In normal situations if venders can't get their terms, then the customer
> doesn't wind up with the product. It is the ability to get the goods
> without following the terms which causes the problem.
In normal situations if the vendor can't get the terms, they have to
either live with it or find a different business. The big content
companies are in the same moral position as street musicians. Nobody's
obligated to pay them.
> And isn't that the basic definition of modern piracy anyway? Getting
> the goods without following the terms.
What terms? There's no contract here.
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 14:04:20 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:04:20 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
I can respect that position. In this case, though, having them find a
different business is not something most people would wind up
appreciating.
We could solve the problem by allowing them to scramble all their
signals and make people buy decoder boxes -- with suitable contractual
prohibitions from deleting the commercials. Banning auto-commercial
stripping seems a much lower cost option, though.
> From: Lucas Gonze [mailto:lgonze@localhost.localdomain]
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:48 PM
> To: John Hall
> Cc: fork@xent.com
> Subject: RE: Tivo is Theft
>
> In normal situations if the vendor can't get the terms, they have to
> either live with it or find a different business. The big content
> companies are in the same moral position as street musicians.
Nobody's
> obligated to pay them.
From harley@argote.ch Fri, 3 May 2002 23:18:20 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:18:20 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
>The fact 50k-odd people had to get incinerated in the process was
>apparently a price they were willing to pay.
The US DOE estimates that about 110000 people were killed immediately,
and a similar number injured, and a similar number died in the
following months, and a similar number died in the following years
(the gift that keeps on giving...)
I find it disheartening how easy it apparently is to rationalize away
a decision to massacre vast numbers of innocents. My take is that
they could have given a 'demo' and, if that didn't work, then later
bomb a (much smaller) city and, if necessary, work their way up until
the Japanese surrendered. But they didn't have many bombs and might
have had to delay while more were assembled and they didn't want to.
IMO, that would have been the 'right' thing to do nevertheless.
This page appears to have a balanced discussion about the decision to
use atomic bombs against cities:
http://users.erols.com/goodmank/
Rob.
.-. .-.
/ \ .-. .-. / \
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
\ / `-' `-' \ /
`-' `-'
From ping@lfw.org Fri, 3 May 2002 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ka-Ping Yee ping@lfw.org
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Fri, 3 May 2002, John Hall wrote:
> I can respect that position. In this case, though, having them find a
> different business is not something most people would wind up
> appreciating.
I think the latter sentence summarizes the key assumption you are
making here, and that some people on this list disagree with.
It's only because people believe the entertainment industry must
continue to use the same business models that they feel the terms of
this implicit contract need protection.
I'd prefer not to assume limits on what industry is capable of doing.
Rather than predicting it will be unable to adapt itself (and adding
enforcement that will encourage its inertia), i say let it adapt.
I think history will back up this position.
-- ?!ng
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 17:39:21 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:39:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Lucas Gonze wrote:
--]companies are in the same moral position as street musicians. Nobody's
--]obligated to pay them.
And once again we come to The Street Performer Protocol
http://www.counterpane.com/street_performer.html
I keep posting it and folks keep forgeting about it. This should be the
freaking Common Sense of its day.
Dig. I want to see Enterprise. It costs 40million to do a season of the
show and bcast it (im estimating, go with me on this). I pledge 10 bucks
to the Enterpirse Escrow. If 4 million Enterpirse fans pledge 10 bucks for
the season then its all good. The money to do Enterprise is gathered and
its done.
It only gets done if enough folks give the cash enough to do it.
You can bet it had better be a good series or next year it wont get
funded.
No ad revenue needed.
No need to tell me I need "NEED" to watch something I dont want to. No
need to brand me a criminal for not watching the parts I dont want.
From elias@cse.ucsc.edu Fri, 03 May 2002 15:06:13 -0700
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 15:06:13 -0700
From: Elias Sinderson elias@cse.ucsc.edu
Subject: Tivo is Theft
Okay, so one can...
(a) watch a show as broadcast and change the channel when commercials
come one
(b) record a show on your VCR while you're away and watch it later, fast
forwarding through the commercials
(c) record a show on your VCR, pausing the recording when commercials
come on, and watch it later commercial free
(d) record a show and the commercials, then hit the editing room and
physically cut the commercials out of the celluloid, and subsequently
watch it later
(e) do the equivalent to b, c, or d, but use a digital device instead of
an analog one, or
(f) design a digital device that senses when the commercials are coming
on and pauses the recording automatically - essentially the same as c,
but you don't have to be there operating the machine...
I find it hard to believe that anyone would say that a-e are illegal,
unless you plan on rebroadcasting the signal or screening it in your
livingroom and charging your neighbors money to sit in. It would seem
that the truely illegal part of "altering the stream" is just that,
letting it be a stream. To put it another way, if the stream stops with
you then you're not really altering a stream anymore, are you?
Just a few thoughts...
Elias
John Hall wrote:
> No, click away. But that isn't what they are complaining about. (Or
> maybe they are, but I don't think they have a beef).
>
> But electronically removing selected parts of the stream is altering it.
From carey@tstonramp.com Fri, 3 May 2002 15:25:03 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:25:03 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: Tivo is Theft
One minor problem with this:
If tivo ever hits the courts (I think its already heading there, I could be
wrong?) the courts could come in and say that simply making it easy is a
violation . Hence, linking to DeCSS is illegal, but merely having a
non-hyperlinked, but readable placeholder is not.
Courts have gotten surprisingly dumb when it comes to interpreting
technology logically. Easier somehow gets clouded not as 'more effective'
but 'more likely to be used to do evil' . A really silly concept, IMHO.
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Down with Disney, Up with Flint
http://www.baen.com/library/
http://www.politechbot.com/p-03412.html
Support authors who argue for the side of reason.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elias Sinderson"
To:
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Tivo is Theft
> Okay, so one can...
>
> (a) watch a show as broadcast and change the channel when commercials
> come one
>
> (b) record a show on your VCR while you're away and watch it later, fast
> forwarding through the commercials
>
> (c) record a show on your VCR, pausing the recording when commercials
> come on, and watch it later commercial free
>
> (d) record a show and the commercials, then hit the editing room and
> physically cut the commercials out of the celluloid, and subsequently
> watch it later
>
> (e) do the equivalent to b, c, or d, but use a digital device instead of
> an analog one, or
>
> (f) design a digital device that senses when the commercials are coming
> on and pauses the recording automatically - essentially the same as c,
> but you don't have to be there operating the machine...
>
> I find it hard to believe that anyone would say that a-e are illegal,
> unless you plan on rebroadcasting the signal or screening it in your
> livingroom and charging your neighbors money to sit in. It would seem
> that the truely illegal part of "altering the stream" is just that,
> letting it be a stream. To put it another way, if the stream stops with
> you then you're not really altering a stream anymore, are you?
>
> Just a few thoughts...
>
>
> Elias
>
>
>
> John Hall wrote:
>
> > No, click away. But that isn't what they are complaining about. (Or
> > maybe they are, but I don't think they have a beef).
> >
> > But electronically removing selected parts of the stream is altering it.
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
>
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 18:15:02 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:15:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]a decision to massacre vast numbers of innocents. My take is that
--]they could have given a 'demo' and, if that didn't work, then later
--]bomb a (much smaller) city and, if necessary, work their way up until
--]the Japanese surrendered.
IN hindsight everything is disectable.
Now, given you feel this was the right way, sim it, prove it and show it.
Are you so sure that the enemy forces would give up with a demo? Even if
they did, what would that do to thier economy after? What about the effect
of the rebuilding, would it have gone the same way or would it have caused
a further entrenchment? Would a partial surreneder have cleaned up the
side hotspots? Without the shock of such destruction to life wold there
have ever been such a harsh backlash to the atom 20 years latter? What
about the effect of post traumiatic psychology on the landscape, what
would a lessend shock do to the eventual path of that? What would have
happened with an amrmed invasion of the home land in play?
Operation Olympic might have been vastly messy, but would it have been
better than the bombs?
Talon Soft makes a sim called Rising Sun which not only covers WWII
histroicaly in the pacfic but also the possibility of Operation Olympic.
There was a non computer sim called Samurai Sunset which also allows a
sims eye viewof what might have been both conflict wise and politicaly.
Joe Miranda always adds the pollitcal/economic scale to games.
Or you can hide behind the mental maginot line of "your a buffon please go
away":)-
bang bang
have a nice day.
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 18:17:33 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:17:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
If an ad falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it still generate
revenue?
From lgonze@localhost.localdomain Fri, 3 May 2002 18:27:59 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:27:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lucas Gonze lgonze@localhost.localdomain
Subject: Tivo is Theft
> And once again we come to The Street Performer Protocol
I think the situations where it will work are pretty limited, but why not.
Just wean the big media companies off the dole and we're set to go.
From paul@prescod.net Fri, 03 May 2002 16:00:47 -0700
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 16:00:47 -0700
From: Paul Prescod paul@prescod.net
Subject: As It Will Be
Tom wrote:
>
>..
>
> ANytime you want to put your money where your mouth is you pick the
> wargame and we will get it on. GMT, Avalon Hill, SPI, Metagaming, we can
> go ancient, modern, heck ill even go napolianic.. you name it, Ill
> learn it and then proceed to go whorish all over your candy ass.
>
> IN practice we becomae the students of our verbal musings.
But if you REALLY want to understand what happened in World War II the
two of you should fly some BOMBER simulations. Yeah. That's the way to
debate history. VIDEO GAMES!
Your virtual machismo has sunk to a new low.
Paul Prescod
From bill@whump.com Fri, 3 May 2002 16:10:05 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:10:05 -0700
From: Bill Humphries bill@whump.com
Subject: As It Will Be
On Friday, May 3, 2002, at 04:00 PM, Paul Prescod wrote:
> But if you REALLY want to understand what happened in World War II the
> two of you should fly some BOMBER simulations.
Yeah, but only if Tom Whore gets to play the "Smartmouthed Kid From the
Bronx" tailgunner, and Robert can be Milo Minderbinder.
-- whump
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 19:38:11 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 19:38:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Paul Prescod wrote:
--]
?--]But if you REALLY want to understand what happened in World War II the
--]two of you should fly some BOMBER simulations. Yeah. That's the way to
--]debate history. VIDEO GAMES!
Are you a simpleton are just unable to read links. These are not video
games you dolt. Now go reread and use someoneelse brain if you need.
-]
--]Your virtual machismo has sunk to a new low.
And your knee jerk reactionism has hit a new high. Go read instead of
pounding out your contrived BS for a change.
From carey@tstonramp.com Fri, 3 May 2002 16:56:16 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:56:16 -0700
From: carey carey@tstonramp.com
Subject: As It Will Be (Or alternatively, ENOUGH ALREADY!)
> -]
> --]Your virtual machismo has sunk to a new low.
>
> And your knee jerk reactionism has hit a new high. Go read instead of
> pounding out your contrived BS for a change.
>
>
To reiterate: MY penis is DEFINITELY BIGGER THAN YOURS!
with a special Nyah! thrown in for good measure.
Everyone, Go home. Its the weekend. Get laid, post bits, and for
godsakes, end the machismo-chest pounding. Let Rob go play his games, Tom
go play his games and everyone go watch Spider-man, damnit.
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
>
From harley@argote.ch Sat, 4 May 2002 01:53:09 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 01:53:09 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: As It Will Be (Or alternatively, ENOUGH ALREADY!)
carey wrote:
>To reiterate: MY penis is DEFINITELY BIGGER THAN YOURS!
I demand photographic evidence.
Rob.
From grlygrl201@aol.com Fri, 03 May 2002 19:53:19 -0400
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 19:53:19 -0400
From: grlygrl201@aol.com grlygrl201@aol.com
Subject: As It Will Be
BOYS! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! Go to your separate threads until you learn to get along.
Mom
In a message dated Fri, 3 May 2002 7:45:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tom writes:
>On Fri, 3 May 2002, Paul Prescod wrote:
>
>--]
>?--]But if you REALLY want to understand what happened in World War II the
>--]two of you should fly some BOMBER simulations. Yeah. That's the way to
>--]debate history. VIDEO GAMES!
>
>Are you a simpleton are just unable to read links. These are not video
>games you dolt. Now go reread and use someoneelse brain if you need.
>
>-]
>--]Your virtual machismo has sunk to a new low.
>
>And your knee jerk reactionism has hit a new high. Go read instead of
>pounding out your contrived BS for a change.
>
>
>
>
>
>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
>
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 18:00:18 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:00:18 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: The Street Performer Protocol
Interesting. I'll have to mention it to Jim Baen. It might keep
Enterprise going, and I'd certainly have wanted to try and keep Crusade
going.
But I don't think it is a general solution.
And the idea of placing the work in the public domain is unnecessary to
the idea.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom [mailto:tomwhore@slack.net]
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:39 PM
> To: Lucas Gonze
> Cc: John Hall; fork@xent.com
> Subject: RE: Tivo is Theft
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, Lucas Gonze wrote:
>
> --]companies are in the same moral position as street musicians.
Nobody's
> --]obligated to pay them.
>
>
> And once again we come to The Street Performer Protocol
>
> http://www.counterpane.com/street_performer.html
>
> I keep posting it and folks keep forgeting about it. This should be
the
> freaking Common Sense of its day.
>
> Dig. I want to see Enterprise. It costs 40million to do a season of
the
> show and bcast it (im estimating, go with me on this). I pledge 10
bucks
> to the Enterpirse Escrow. If 4 million Enterpirse fans pledge 10 bucks
for
> the season then its all good. The money to do Enterprise is gathered
and
> its done.
>
> It only gets done if enough folks give the cash enough to do it.
>
> You can bet it had better be a good series or next year it wont get
> funded.
>
> No ad revenue needed.
>
> No need to tell me I need "NEED" to watch something I dont want to. No
> need to brand me a criminal for not watching the parts I dont want.
>
From johnhall@evergo.net Fri, 3 May 2002 18:07:45 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:07:45 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
Either "What If" or "What If 2" had a relatively detailed look by a
military historian about the possible effects of a decision to invade.
The direct casualty figures were enormous.
Perhaps more importantly, there were (two I think) rail lines we hadn't
bombed. We would have bombed them. And we would have starved millions.
And that was before any discussion of using the rice rust biological
attack I remember we were working on.
It is also worth remembering that Japan didn't surrender after the first
one, and those in control of the government didn't want to surrender
after the second one.
BTW: There was also a plan to transfer the government of Japan to China
and continue from there ...
================================
To no ones surprise, I think dropping the bomb was a great idea. As an
American General recently said: "No more Hiroshimas? Ok, you first. No
more Pearl Harbors."
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Tom
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 3:15 PM
> To: Robert Harley
> Cc: fork@xent.com
> Subject: Re: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
>
> --]a decision to massacre vast numbers of innocents. My take is that
> --]they could have given a 'demo' and, if that didn't work, then later
> --]bomb a (much smaller) city and, if necessary, work their way up
until
> --]the Japanese surrendered.
>
> IN hindsight everything is disectable.
>
> Now, given you feel this was the right way, sim it, prove it and show
it.
>
> Are you so sure that the enemy forces would give up with a demo? Even
if
> they did, what would that do to thier economy after? What about the
effect
> of the rebuilding, would it have gone the same way or would it have
caused
> a further entrenchment? Would a partial surreneder have cleaned up the
> side hotspots? Without the shock of such destruction to life wold
there
> have ever been such a harsh backlash to the atom 20 years latter? What
> about the effect of post traumiatic psychology on the landscape, what
> would a lessend shock do to the eventual path of that? What would have
> happened with an amrmed invasion of the home land in play?
>
> Operation Olympic might have been vastly messy, but would it have been
> better than the bombs?
>
> Talon Soft makes a sim called Rising Sun which not only covers WWII
> histroicaly in the pacfic but also the possibility of Operation
Olympic.
>
> There was a non computer sim called Samurai Sunset which also allows a
> sims eye viewof what might have been both conflict wise and
politicaly.
> Joe Miranda always adds the pollitcal/economic scale to games.
>
> Or you can hide behind the mental maginot line of "your a buffon
please go
> away":)-
>
> bang bang
>
> have a nice day.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
From rah@shipwright.com Fri, 3 May 2002 20:33:11 -0400
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 20:33:11 -0400
From: R. A. Hettinga rah@shipwright.com
Subject: YAWAES: Yet Another "What's An Entrepreneur" Study...
YAWAES: Yet Another "What's An Entrepreneur" Study...
Evidently it's recovery from "failure", and creating new markets out of
whole cloth that matters.
(I'd call it being too stupid to quit, myself... ;-))
Cheers,
RAH
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/venture/68976_vc03.shtml
Venture Capital: A prof delves into the mind of the entrepreneur
Friday, May 3, 2002
By JOHN COOK
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
Saras Sarasvathy is trying to crack the entrepreneurial code.
The University of Washington business professor has been studying the
mind-set of entrepreneurs for more than half a decade. Her work culminated
last year in a paper titled, "What Makes Entrepreneurs Entrepreneurial?"
It's a tough question to answer and one that involves a number of factors,
including environment and upbringing.
But the 43-year-old professor, who was involved in several start-up
ventures while living in India before receiving a doctorate from Carnegie
Mellon University in 1998, has found some interesting patterns in the way
entrepreneurs work, think and make decisions.
Some of her results will be presented this morning at the Alliance of
Angels Investor Forum in downtown Seattle, 7:45 to 9 at 1301 Fifth Ave.,
Suite 2400.
She also plans to publish a book this year based on her analysis of 30
entrepreneurs who started companies that now range in size from $200
million to $6.5 billion. One of the entrepreneurs is Icos and Amgen founder
George Rathmann.
When Sarasvathy first started getting interested in the subject matter in
the early '90s, she was told by colleagues that studying entrepreneurs was
a "non-area," an oxymoron and "can't be done because it is like art."
But being an entrepreneur herself and knowing several people who started
their own companies, Sarasvathy believed there was something common and
systematic about their experiences.
"It was very clear in my mind that entrepreneurs think differently," said
Sarasvathy. "Anybody who has worked with entrepreneurs to any extent knows
that there is something different or funny about them. So I started with
that premise."
Instead of simply interviewing the entrepreneurs, Sarasvathy created a
fictitious business plan and asked the 30 subjects to talk aloud as they
attempted to solve 10 problems that arose. The test lasted about two hours.
After analysis of transcripts from each individual, a common theme
appeared. Entrepreneurs were not goal-oriented, rather they used the
materials at hand to create opportunities. Sarasvathy compares this to a
chef, who instead of working from a set recipe, combs the cupboards looking
for ingredients in hopes that something tasty can be created.
"Entrepreneurs are much more flexible on goals," she said. "They will start
with their means and say 'What can I do?' It is a completely opposite way
of thinking about problem solving in general."
While that fits into the common perception of entrepreneurs who "fly by the
seat of the pants," Sarasvathy believes there is a logic to the
decision-making process.
In many cases, entrepreneurs thrive on the unpredictable nature of business.
"Seasoned entrepreneurs ... know that surprises are not deviations from the
path," Sarasvathy writes. "Instead they are the norm, the flora and fauna
of the landscape, from which one learns to forge a path through the jungle."
For example, she said entrepreneurs tend to ignore market research --
typically one of the first steps in business creation -- because it wastes
time and money.
"They don't start with some kind of existing market and then try to go
capture it," she said. "They imagine new markets and go create them" --
often one customer at a time.
One entrepreneur quoted in the study said that instead of doing market
research through targeted mailings or other techniques he/she would "just
try to take it out and sell it."
Expanding on that thought process, another said: "I always live by the
motto of Ready-fire-aim. I think if you spend too much time doing
ready-aim-aim-aim-aim, you're never going to see all the good things that
would happen if you actually start doing it and then aim."
In the process of the research, Sarasvathy also discovered how
entrepreneurs dealt with failure -- a common occurrence in start-up
enterprises. They view the world as a series of successes and failures that
happen at all levels, she said.
"The science of entrepreneurship, if there is one and hopefully one of
these days I actually figure it out, has to be failure management," she
said. "When you are an expert entrepreneur you become very, very good at
outliving failures and accumulating successes over time."
In addition to building off past failures, entrepreneurs often learn to
have smaller failures that do not cost as much or destroy the entire
business, she said.
As far as her research goes, Sarasvathy said much has changed in the past
six years. For one, there's been a newfound respect in academic circles.
She's been on a "road show" recently promoting her findings at universities
and has been inundated with different ways to use the information.
Sarasvathy also feels as if she is well on her way to defining what makes
entrepreneurs tick, saying she has the skeletal structure of the concept in
place and now must work on the flesh and bones. Next step, she said, will
be analyzing early-stage entrepreneurs who have not yet made it and
comparing them with the expert entrepreneurs.
The research is also having an impact in the classroom.
"The interesting thing for me and the real validation is that
entrepreneurship is teachable," she said. "You can talk to my students, it
is teachable. Even people who do not naturally think that way are able to
learn the .. value of thinking differently."
For more information, visit depts.washington.edu/bapub/research/saras.html
--
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
From patrickgodspower4000@rediffmail.com Sat, 4 May 2002 03:31:11 -0700
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 03:31:11 -0700
From: PATRICK GODSPOWER patrickgodspower4000@rediffmail.com
Subject: ASSISTANCE(CONFIDENTIAL)URGENT
ASSISTANCE
WE ARE MEMBERS OF A SPECIAL COMMITTEE FOR BUDGET AND
PLANNING OF THE NIGERIA NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION =28NNPC=29IN WEST AFRICA=2E THIS COMMITTEE IS PRINCIPALLY CONCERNED
WITH CONTRACT AWARDS AND APPROVAL=2E WITH OUR POSITIONS=2C
WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY SECURED FOR OURSELVES THE SUM OF
FIFTY FIVE MILLION=2C FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED
STATES DOLLARS =28US$55=2E5M=29=2E THIS AMOUNT WAS CAREFULLY
MANIPULATED BY OVER-INVOICING OF AN OLD CONTRACT=2E
BASED ON INFORMATION GATHERED ABOUT YOU=2C WE BELIEVE
YOU WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO HELP US IN TRANSFERING
THIS FUND =28US$55=2E5M=29 INTO A SAFE ACCOUNT=2E IT HAS BEEN
AGREED THAT THE OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT WILL BE
COMPENSATED WITH 30% OF THE REMITTED FUNDS=2C WHILE WE
KEEP 60% AS THE INITIATORS AND 10% WILL BE SET ASIDE
TO OFFSET EXPENSES AND PAY THE NECESSARY TAXES=2EWE
INTEND TO USE PART OF OUR OWN SHARE TO IMPORT FROM
YOUR COUNTRY AGRICULTURAL AND CONSTRUCTION MACHINERY=2E
THIS IS BECAUSE THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT OF MY COUNTRY
IS EMPHASISING ON PROVIDING FOOD AND HOUSING FOR ALL
ITS CITIZENS BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION=2E HENCE=2C
AGRICULTURAL AND CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT ARE IN HIGH
DEMAND OVER HERE=2E WE SHALL ALSO NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE
IN THIS REGARD ON A COMMISSION TO BE AGREED UPON WHEN
WE FINALLY MEET=2E
ALL MODALITIES OF THIS TRANSACTION HAVE BEEN CAREFULLY
WORKED OUT AND ONCE STARTED WILL NOT TAKE MORE THAN
SEVEN =287=29 WORKING DAYS=2C WITH YOUR FULL SUPPORT=2E THIS
TRANSACTION IS 100% RISK FREE=2E
MOREOVER=2C WE SHALL NEED THE FOLLOWING FROM YOU TO ENABLE US BEGIN THE TRANSACTION FORMALLY=2E THEY ARE=3B YOUR FULL NAME AND ADDRESS OR YOUR COMPANY NAME=2C ADDRESS AND TELEPHONE=2FFAX NUMBERS=2C YOUR BANKERS NAME AND ADDRESS=2C YOUR ACCOUNT NUMBER AND NAME=2E THIS INFORMATION WILL BE USED ALONGSIDE OTHER VITAL DOCUMENTS OVER HERE IN PREPARING THE NECESSARY APPLICATION FOR PAYMENT TO THE CONCERNED QUARTERS WHERE PAYMENT APPROVALS WOULD BE SECURED IN FAVOUR OF YOUR COMPANY FOR THE PAYMENT OF OUR FUND=28US$55=2E5M=29 INTO YOUR NOMINATED ACCOUNT FOR US ALL=2E BY OUR APPLICATION=2C IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT THIS SUM IS BEING REQUESTED AS PAYMENT=2C WHICH IS LONG-OUTSTANDING=2C FOR A CONTRACT=2C WE SHALL CLAIM WITH OUR POSITION=2C YOU OR YOUR COMPANY EXECUTED FOR =28NNPC=29 SOMETIME IN 1997=2E HENCE=2C WE SHALL FOLLOW ALL THE LEGAL OFFICIAL PROTOCOLS USUALLY OBSERVED BY FOREIGN CONTRACTORS WHENEVER THEY ARE DEMANDING PAYMENT FOR CONTRACTS EXECUTED FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF MY COUNTRY=2E
FURTHERMORE=2C IMMEDIATELY THE FINAL APPROVAL IS GRANTED=2C THE FUND WILL BE TRANSFERRED INTO YOUR ACCOUNT WITHIN 72HOURS=2C BY WHICH TIME MY PARTNERS AND I WILL BE IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR THE FINAL DISBURSEMENT IN THE RATIO ALREADY SPELT OUT TO YOU=2E
PLEASE=2C YOU SHOULD ENDEAVOUR TO GIVE US AN ACCOUNT WHICH YOU HAVE ABSOLUTE CONTROL OVER=2E THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE WOULD NOT WANT A SITUATION WHEN THE MONEY IS IN THE ACCOUNT=2C YOU NOW TELL US YOU WOULD NEED TO BE AUTHORISED BY ANOTHER PERSON BEFORE WE CAN HAVE OUR OWN SHARE=2E
YOU WILL NOT BE REQUIRED TO TRAVEL OUT OF YOUR COUNTRY=2C ME AND MY PARTNERS=2C WE TRAVEL DOWN TO YOUR COUNTRY FOR THE DISBURSEMENT OF THE FUND=2C AFTER THE THE FINAL TRANSACTION=2E WE WILL ALSO DISCUSS ABOUT OIL BUSINEES IN MY COUNTRY WHEN WE COME DOWN OVER THERE=2E BECAUSE WE WOULD LIKE TO ESTABLISH A JOINT BUSINESS WITH YOU=2E THAT IS WE WILL USE YOUR NAME TO INCORPORATE AN OIL COMPANY IN MY COUNTRY=2E
BESIDES=2C ON THE COMPLETION OF THIS TRANSFER=2C ALL DOCUMENTS USED FOR THE PURPOSE WILL BE WITHDRAWN FROM THE QUARTERS THEY ARE SUBMITTED BY OUR CONTACTS IN THESE OFFICES AND DESTROYED=2C THEREAFTER=2E SO=2C THERE WILL NOT BE ANY PROBLEM ARISING FROM THIS TRANSACTION NOW OR IN THE FUTURE=2E
IF THIS PROPOSAL SATISFIES YOU=2C PLEASE REACH US ONLY
BY EMAIL FOR MORE INFORMATION=2E
PLEASE=2C TREAT AS URGENT AND VERY IMPORTANT=2E
YOURS FAITHFULLY=2C
DR=2EPATRICK GODSPOWER=2E
patrickgodspower4000=40rediffmail=2Ecom
patrickgodspower4000=40yahoo=2Ecom
From kra@monkey.org 03 May 2002 19:51:28 -0700
Date: 03 May 2002 19:51:28 -0700
From: Karl Anderson kra@monkey.org
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
harley@argote.ch (Robert Harley) writes:
> I find it disheartening how easy it apparently is to rationalize away
> a decision to massacre vast numbers of innocents. My take is that
> they could have given a 'demo' and, if that didn't work, then later
> bomb a (much smaller) city and, if necessary, work their way up until
> the Japanese surrendered. But they didn't have many bombs and might
> have had to delay while more were assembled and they didn't want to.
> IMO, that would have been the 'right' thing to do nevertheless.
That's the idea of "Lucky Strike" by Kim Stanley Robinson, except it's
one of the bomber crew who purposefully misses, and the effects aren't
so much the outcome of the war but the attitude towards it and future
wars.
--
Karl Anderson kra@monkey.org http://www.monkey.org/~kra/
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 23:57:13 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:57:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be (Or alternatively, ENOUGH ALREADY!)
On Fri, 3 May 2002, carey wrote:
--]To reiterate: MY penis is DEFINITELY BIGGER THAN YOURS!
No. TO REITERATE... I ask some one to walk thier talk and instead I get
prototypical half baked reactionary jaw flapping with obvious child
wailings and missing chromosome inspired shuntings.
So basicaly you folk will say anything but back up nothing.
--] everyone go watch Spider-man, damnit.
Unless it hits usenet tonight that a nogo. The lines in the few theaters I
went past looked a little too much like hyporamaical waiting muck. Next
week, 4pm twilight specail (4.50$) in the best theater in town will do
nicely. The wife and I have gotten very spoiled with that time slot. They
charge just about half price to fill up the empty times, we get great
empty theaters, no kids, and those great new love seat rows all to
ourselves.
From tomwhore@slack.net Fri, 3 May 2002 23:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be (Or alternatively, ENOUGH ALREADY!)
On Sat, 4 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]I demand photographic evidence.
Ill do you one better...My yet to be borns son's penis is bigger than
yours
http://www.slack.net/~tomwhore/BenjaminWallaceHiggins.jpg
From tomwhore@slack.net Sat, 4 May 2002 00:05:04 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:05:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: The Street Performer Protocol
On Fri, 3 May 2002, John Hall wrote:
--]
--]Interesting. I'll have to mention it to Jim Baen. It might keep
--]Enterprise going, and I'd certainly have wanted to try and keep Crusade
--]going.
--]
--]But I don't think it is a general solution.
Its a good place to start though. I think for smaller endevours it could
be just the thing. Larger ones may need a mix of corporate sponsorship and
grass roots level funding. PBS comes to mind but even that has become
mucked up over the years.
From tomwhore@slack.net Sat, 4 May 2002 00:06:58 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:06:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: ASSISTANCE(CONFIDENTIAL)URGENT
On Sat, 4 May 2002, PATRICK GODSPOWER wrote:
--]
--]YOURS FAITHFULLY,
--]
--]DR.PATRICK GODSPOWER.
--]
Finaly, a bright spot in the fork list today.:)-
From mbseko9@desertmail.com Sat, 04 May 2002 05:22:00
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 05:22:00
From: moshoodseko mbseko9@desertmail.com
Subject: hello
Tel=234-80-330-12946
Dear Friend
I am the first son of the late Mobutu Sese Seko, the
former
President
of the Congo Republic. I am presently under
protective custody
in Nigeria
as
a political refugee. I got your contact during my
search for a
stranger
that
can cooperate with me in this mutual transaction.
I want you to note that this business will benefit
both of us.
However,
you must confirm your ability to handle this because
it involves
a large
amount of money. The money (50 million US DOLLARS is
my share of
my
father's
estate. I boxed and shipped the money to a security
company
abroad at the
peak of the war/political crisis that rocked my
country few
years ago. Now
the crisis has ended and I need a trustworthy person
like you to
proceed to
the place of the security company in order to clear
the fund and
invest on
my behalf as I dont want my name to be used for now.
Note that I will send to you the relevant documents
that will
enable
you take possesion of the the fund for onward
investment for our
mutual
benefit. All I need from you is as follows:
1. A letter of committment (duely signed) that you
will keep the
transaction strictly confidential.
2. Your confirmation of your ability to handle this.
3. Your international identity or driving licence
number for
identification
to the security company.
4. Your telephone and fax numbers for communication.
5. Your full permanent address.
As soon as I get the above information from you, I
will disclose
to
you the name and the country of the security company.
I will
forward your
name and particulars to the security company to enable
them contact you
accordingly. I will also send to you a LETTER OF
AUTHORITY to
enable you
clear the fund on my behalf. Note that this is a very
safe
transaction as
this money is my share of my father'sestate.
I am waiting for your response to enable us proceed.
Regards,
Moshood Seko Mobutu
From kelley@pulpculture.org Sat, 04 May 2002 00:36:13 -0400
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 00:36:13 -0400
From: kelley@pulpculture.org kelley@pulpculture.org
Subject: Nipping it in the bud
I asked around about hard hitting crits of VC funding and someone--an
angel--sent this:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/sep01/speak.html
An Engineer's View of Venture Capitalists
By Nick Tredennick, with Brion Shimamoto,Dynamic Silicon
Any other similar articles out there that FoRkers could point me to?
Thanks,
Kelley, Off to Google, "why venture capitalists suck"
From mbseko2@desertmail.com Sat, 04 May 2002 06:05:22
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 06:05:22
From: moshoodseko mbseko2@desertmail.com
Subject: hello
Tel=234-80-330-12946
Dear Friend
I am the first son of the late Mobutu Sese Seko, the
former
President
of the Congo Republic. I am presently under
protective custody
in Nigeria
as
a political refugee. I got your contact during my
search for a
stranger
that
can cooperate with me in this mutual transaction.
I want you to note that this business will benefit
both of us.
However,
you must confirm your ability to handle this because
it involves
a large
amount of money. The money (50 million US DOLLARS is
my share of
my
father's
estate. I boxed and shipped the money to a security
company
abroad at the
peak of the war/political crisis that rocked my
country few
years ago. Now
the crisis has ended and I need a trustworthy person
like you to
proceed to
the place of the security company in order to clear
the fund and
invest on
my behalf as I dont want my name to be used for now.
Note that I will send to you the relevant documents
that will
enable
you take possesion of the the fund for onward
investment for our
mutual
benefit. All I need from you is as follows:
1. A letter of committment (duely signed) that you
will keep the
transaction strictly confidential.
2. Your confirmation of your ability to handle this.
3. Your international identity or driving licence
number for
identification
to the security company.
4. Your telephone and fax numbers for communication.
5. Your full permanent address.
As soon as I get the above information from you, I
will disclose
to
you the name and the country of the security company.
I will
forward your
name and particulars to the security company to enable
them contact you
accordingly. I will also send to you a LETTER OF
AUTHORITY to
enable you
clear the fund on my behalf. Note that this is a very
safe
transaction as
this money is my share of my father'sestate.
I am waiting for your response to enable us proceed.
Regards,
Moshood Seko Mobutu
From wkearney99@hotmail.com Sat, 4 May 2002 01:35:50 -0400
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 01:35:50 -0400
From: Bill Kearney wkearney99@hotmail.com
Subject: FoRK digest, Vol 1 #995 - 17 msgs
> > --]a decision to massacre vast numbers of innocents. My take is that
> > --]they could have given a 'demo' and, if that didn't work, then later
> > --]bomb a (much smaller) city and, if necessary, work their way up until
> > --]the Japanese surrendered.
What incredible neglect of historical evidence!
Fat Man and Little Boy were the ONLY two such examples of atomic weapons
available at the time. Do you people know NOTHING of the facts here? There was
no vast quantity of "demo" bombs available! And contrary to popular opinion,
making them, even now, is NOT an easy exercise. But even if a sufficient
quantity of them had existed, the fragemented nature of C3 in Japan would have
made it virtually impossible to present your stupid "demo" idea to an audience
that would have even listened! Just inventing some alternative reality because
some myopic wishful thinking craves the fulfilment of fantasy doesn't mean the
real world will go along.
Go do some research about what facts existed AT THAT time before making such
inane suggestions. There's a whole other issue of what would have been done
next had the Japanese not surrendered. Having no more bombs in the available
pipeline would have meant embarking on invasion of the mainland, an exercise
that would most certainly have taken YEARS longer to complete. There'd have
been hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Japanese that would have died,
mostly of starvation. The resulting devastation would have made it incredibly
diffcult to rebuild the shattered social, if not economic, structure of the
country. While the use of the atomic bombs were indeed devastating, their use
arguably saved the lives of millions, mostly Japanese. Sure they were awful,
but a lot less worse than everything else going on at the time. Get into the
reality of facts and events as they happened, not as current idiocy would like
to warp them.
I'll also argue the people making this stupid alternative/fantasy arguments are
the ones with testosterone problems. Deprivation of testosterone, no doubt.
From carlreed@core.com Sat, 4 May 2002 01:39:45 -0400
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 01:39:45 -0400
From: Elite Creative Studios carlreed@core.com
Subject: Creative Development
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From iwelsh@sympatico.ca Sat, 4 May 2002 05:39:09 -0400
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 05:39:09 -0400
From: Ian Welsh iwelsh@sympatico.ca
Subject: Tivo is theft
Well I don't know about the US but up here in Canada we have cable channels
without ads. TMN (The Movie Network) is an example. You pay your ten bucks
(or whatever) a month and you watch uncut movies 24 hours a day, no adds.
So actually advertising isn't the only model that works to pay for TV there
is also subscription fees.
From udhay@pobox.com Sat, 04 May 2002 17:07:52 +0530
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 17:07:52 +0530
From: Udhay Shankar N udhay@pobox.com
Subject: Tivo is theft
At 05:39 AM 5/4/02 -0400, Ian Welsh wrote:
>Well I don't know about the US but up here in Canada we have cable channels
>without ads. TMN (The Movie Network) is an example. You pay your ten bucks
>(or whatever) a month and you watch uncut movies 24 hours a day, no adds.
>So actually advertising isn't the only model that works to pay for TV there
>is also subscription fees.
Yup. Also see www.templetons.com/brad/tvfuture.html
Udhay
--
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
God is silent. Now if we can only get Man to shut up.
From OfficeSupply728066@office.net Sat, 4 May 2002 05:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 05:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: OfficeSupply728066@office.net OfficeSupply728066@office.net
Subject: ~ SAVE 80% On Inkjet Cartridges!!! (5088RjBv0-177NfAs4538KeWo9-789@28)
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From mpeti_k04@diplomats.com Sat, 4 May 2002 14:35:12 +0200
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 14:35:12 +0200
From: laurent mpeti kabila mpeti_k04@diplomats.com
Subject: (no subject)
REQUEST FOR URGENT BUSINESS ASSISTANCE
--------------------------------------
I stumbled into your contact by stroke of luck after a
long search for an honest and trust worthy person who
could handle issue with high confidentiality=2E
I was so dilghted when i got your contact and i decided
to contact you and solicite for your kind assistance=2E
i hope you will let this issue to remain confidential even
if you are not interested because of my status=2E
I am Laurent Mpeti Kabila =28Jnr=29 the second son of
Late President LAURENT DESIRE KABILA the immediate
Past president of the DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO in
Africa who was murdered by his opposition through his personal
bodyguards in his bedroom on Tuesday 16th January=2C 2001=2E
I have the privilege of being mandated by my father=2Cs
colleagues to seek your immediate and urgent co-operation
to receive into your bank account the sum of US $25m=2E
=28twenty-five million Dollars=29 and some thousands carats
of Diamond=2E This money and treasures was lodged in a vault with a
security firm in Europe and South-Africa=2E
SOURCES OF DIAMONDS AND FUND
In August 2000=2C my father as a defence minister and
president has a meeting with his cabinet and armychief about the
defence budget for 2000 to 2001 which was US $700m=2E
so he directed one of his best friend=2E Frederic Kibasa Maliba
who was a minister of mines and a political party leader known
as the Union Sacree de=2Copposition radicale et ses allies =28USORAL=29
to buy arms with US $200m on 5th January 2001=3B for him to finalize
the arms deal=2Cmy father was murdered=2E f=2EK=2E Maliba =28FKM=29 and I have
decided to keep the money with a foreigner after which he will use
it to contest for the political election=2E Inspite of all this we
have resolved to present you or your company for the firm to pay
it into your nominated account the above sum and diamonds=2E
This transaction should be finalized within seven =287=29 working
days and for your co-operation and partnership=2C we have unanimously
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receive it in your account=2E The nature of your business is not relevant to
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commencement of the transaction=2E I count on your honour to keep my
secret=2C SECRET=2E
Looking forward for your urgent reply
Thanks=2E
Best Regards
MPETI L=2E KABILA =28Jnr=29
From wkearney99@hotmail.com Sat, 4 May 2002 12:12:55 -0400
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 12:12:55 -0400
From: Bill Kearney wkearney99@hotmail.com
Subject: Mapping the conflicts
An interesting chart of conflicts.
http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/amsci/issues/comsci02/compsci2002-01cap5.html
From elias@cse.ucsc.edu Sat, 04 May 2002 10:30:31 -0700
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:30:31 -0700
From: Elias Sinderson elias@cse.ucsc.edu
Subject: Tivo is Theft
No, of course you're right, ads that are not consumed do not generate
revenue. All the more reason to work on developing alternative sources
of revenue -- alternative business/funding models. The point of my last
post in this thread was to illustrate how blurry the lines are between
the capabilities people have now with the available technology, and what
they will be able to do with the toys just around the corner.
The "average person" (I know, I know...) would think it's silly to make
a law against some activity (like editing out the comercials when you
record your favorite show) simply because it has become easier than it
was in the past. Law makers, lawyers, and the courts, however, have
shown great capacity for making stupid laws in the past...
It would seem that the simple existence of a large market for devices
which remove the commercial content indicates the rejection by the
consumer of a business model which depends on it. Hence, find a new
model, evolve, and please just shut up about it already. :-)
As mentioned earlier in this thread by several people, there are other
models to explore. Some of these have already been demonstrated to be
quite successful. The whining on the part of the broadcast companies is
nothing more than resistance to change, unwillingness to evolve, and
their fear of death, and utlimately obsolescence. As far as I care they
can go suck it, I have little sympathy for them or their antiquated ways.
Wow, I got a little vitriolic there at the end... Sorry, my blood sugar
must be getting low. :-)
Elias, on his way to breakfast.
Tom wrote:
> If an ad falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it still generate
> revenue?
From tomwhore@slack.net Sat, 4 May 2002 13:38:10 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 13:38:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: As It Will Be
On Sat, 4 May 2002 ThosStew@aol.com wrote:
--]Yo, Tom:
--]
--]why is any of this in MY mailbox? If you want to piss, please close the door
--]and don't fill the rest of our uninterested ears with the clatter
--]
Wowsers Thos, I wasnt aware you are now the Fork Moderator of Whats
Interesting. Do I need to kiss your ass before I post something?
Ive had to wade through masses of crap over the last few months on fork,
if I didint want to read it I skipped over it. Ya kow the world and/or
your esteem wont falter if you dont read each and every fork message.
Learn to filter, if that fails rethink you being on a mailing list. It
sounds like it only disturbs your delicatly balanced life and you somehow
are not able to deal with what being on a mailing list means. You could
also just join AOL and send TOS reports on those who dont "interest" you.
Remeber, Barney love you too.
-tom
From paul@prescod.net Sat, 04 May 2002 11:22:00 -0700
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:22:00 -0700
From: Paul Prescod paul@prescod.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
John Hall wrote:
>
> Well, I have a TiVo and I use it to start Enterprise late, then skip all
> the commercials and end 'on time'.
>
> Yet the Turner CEO has a point. Someone has to pay for putting
> Enterprise out, and if a significant number of the 2.5 million to 5.0
> million people watching it don't watch the commercials then it won't get
> made.
HBO.
Paul Prescod
From tomwhore@slack.net Sat, 4 May 2002 14:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 14:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Mapping the conflicts
On Sat, 4 May 2002, Bill Kearney wrote:
--]An interesting chart of conflicts.
--]http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/amsci/issues/comsci02/compsci2002-01cap5.html
My fave line from the article...Thinginess Fails
Great read.
From harley@argote.ch Sat, 4 May 2002 20:38:01 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 20:38:01 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
Bill Kearney wrote:
> > My take is that they could have given a 'demo' and, if that didn't
> > work, then later bomb a (much smaller) city and, if necessary, work
> > their way up until the Japanese surrendered.
>
> What incredible neglect of historical evidence!
Hi Bill. Please tone it down a bit. I'm a serious guy (Milo
Minderbinder?) interested in serious discussions (and not in playing
sim games or comparing dick sizes (no problem in that particular area)).
I don't think I'm neglecting historical evidence at all.
BK:
>Fat Man and Little Boy were the ONLY two such examples of atomic weapons
>available at the time. Do you people know NOTHING of the facts here?
Yes we do.
BK:
>There was no vast quantity of "demo" bombs available!
Indeed.
BK:
>And contrary to popular opinion, making them, even now, is NOT an
>easy exercise.
Actually, the uranium bomb (Little Boy) was very simple: shoot a
sub-critical lump of U235 into another one and boom! During the
Manhattan Project measures were taken to ensure that lumps of uranium
were stored interspersed with lumps of lead because otherwise a
careless worker could cause an atomic explosion. Also there were
problems planning for emergency dumping of Little Boy because water
leaking into it would have been sufficient to cause an explosion.
The main problem was that enriching uranium to weapons-grade was slow.
It doesn't seem to be publicly known precisely how much uranium was in
Little Boy, but in ball-park figures it was 20 or 30 kilos which would
have taken the US three or four months to produce.
The plutonium design (Fat Man) was much more complicated, essentially
because the much higher fission rate would cause a simple design to
blow itself apart before the reaction really got under way. The
advantage was that only about 6 kilos of plutonium were needed and it
was much easier to produce. The design was all done and several bombs
were already made, minus the plutonium. Also, 17 B29's had been
converted to 'deliver' them. Szilard said about Secretary of War Stimson;
>He wrote that a "demonstration" of the A-bomb was impossible because
>we had only two bombs. Had we staged a "demonstration" both bombs
>might have been duds and then we would have lost face. Now, this
>argument is clearly invalid. It is quite true that at the time of
>Hiroshima we had only two bombs, but it would not have been necessary
>to wait for very long before we would have had several more.
A third bomb was expected, and built, within several weeks. The US
could produce about 20 kilos of Pu239 per month back then and indeed
went on to produce about one 'Fat Man' per week shortly after the war.
BK:
>But even if a sufficient quantity of them had existed, the fragemented
>nature of C3 in Japan would have made it virtually impossible to
>present your stupid "demo" idea to an audience that would have even
>listened! Just inventing some alternative reality because some myopic
>wishful thinking craves the fulfilment of fantasy doesn't mean the
>real world will go along.
What you term "my" stupid demo idea was actually put forward by the
Target Committee in April 1945. Their initial suggestion was to drop
a bomb over Tokyo Bay. Very few casualties, massive audience and
psychological impact.
But later they decided to hit large urban areas instead, and picked
those with some strategic importance but not enough to have drawn
bombing with conventional ordnance so that they were pristine targets.
Actually, the Nagasaki bomb was intended to be dropped on a large
military arsenal but was moved at the last minute because of... cloud
cover! What a great reason! And these guys had radar at the time...
Concerning Hiroshima, there is evidence of some 'miscommunication'
between Truman and his military advisors:
http://www.dannen.com/decision/hst-jl25.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry S. Truman, Diary, July 25, 1945
>[...] I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that
>military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not
>women and children. [...]
>
>He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one [...]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And:
http://www.dannen.com/decision/hst-ag09.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Truman Speech, August 9, 1945 (excerpt)
>The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on
>Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first
>attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians. But
>that attack is only a warning of things to come. If Japan does not
>surrender, bombs will have to be dropped on her war industries and,
>unfortunately, thousands of civilian lives will be lost. [...]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BK:
>Go do some research about what facts existed AT THAT time before
>making such inane suggestions.
Whatever.
BK:
>There's a whole other issue of what would have been done next had the
>Japanese not surrendered. Having no more bombs in the available
>pipeline
Fact is, they were "in the pipeline".
BK:
>would have meant embarking on invasion of the mainland, an
>exercise that would most certainly have taken YEARS longer to
>complete. There'd have been hundreds of thousands (if not millions) [...]
No. Japan was already on its last legs. Plus the US knew that the
USSR was about to denounce its neutrality pact with Japan and declare
war (which they did). But that's almost irrelevant. Once the bomb
was functional, it was almost certain to bring about an easy US
victory without an invasion. If it didn't, then the atomic bombings
just added to the casualties and if it did, as was likely, then no
invasion was necessary. In either case the onus was on the US to get
maximum mileage out of the atomic bomb while minimizing civilian
casualties. I'm not opposed to the fact that the used it. I'm
opposed to the fact that, right out of gate, they threw everything
they had at civilian targets. I think Truman took the decision he did
with insufficient care and with some of the wrong priorities, in a way
that Roosevelt might well not have...
>I'll also argue the people making this stupid alternative/fantasy
>arguments are the ones with testosterone problems. Deprivation of
>testosterone, no doubt.
The tone of discourse is just fantastic these days.
Bye,
Rob.
.-. .-.
/ \ .-. .-. / \
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
\ / `-' `-' \ /
`-' `-'
From tomwhore@slack.net Sat, 4 May 2002 15:01:08 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 15:01:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
On Sat, 4 May 2002, Paul Prescod wrote:
--]HBO.
--]
Yep, cable is still an odd beast though. I would say, though I have no
numbers to back it up, more than half of cable programing has commercials.
Things like TLC, History Channel, FoodTV, TNN etc etc. Yet there are those
premium channels folks are willing to pay for that make orignal programing
with no commercials.
The problem is in the cost structuring. Preimum pricing has gotten a bit
crazy. When you get intot he tiered schema you can being paying 50 dollars
or more per month for your viewing.
Now if thats where you derive your enjoyment from its not that bad a
price. Say 3 bucks a day to be able to sit down and get at least one to
two hours of premium entertainment.
For me though I get my kicks online, so insted of a big cable bill I pay
for cablemodem:)- AT&T gets my cash one way or another.
Of course others will look at this 3$ a day mark and thnk "for 3$ a day we
could be rebuilding third world economies, saving the rain forest, etc etc
etc" and then we are into the multipurposed debate of ethics and spending
which I will not get into in this post nor shuld anyone jump the gun and
assume they know my stance on.
(there, that should start something>:-)
-tominyourinboxcauseyouinvitedmewsmf
From tomwhore@slack.net Sat, 4 May 2002 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
On Sat, 4 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]Hi Bill. Please tone it down a bit.
Translation...You bring up some good poitns and thats a threat to me. So
now I will try toplay off as the clam rational one and make you seem the
wildly yelling boob.
--]>available at the time. Do you people know NOTHING of the facts here?
--]
--]Yes we do.
Ahh, We. There is always a WE in there somewhere/
--]Actually, the uranium bomb (Little Boy) was very simple:
Historicaly at that time it was this simple? Or is this just Bob Harley
master of hindsight supposing folks back inthe 40's should have been as
smart as he thinks he is now?
--]What you term "my" stupid demo idea was actually put forward by the
--]Target Committee in April 1945. Their initial suggestion was to drop
--]a bomb over Tokyo Bay. Very few casualties, massive audience and
--]psychological impact.
Even after the first bomb went off on live targets the enemy was not
willing to surrender. Do you think a demo over a non civi target would
have been MORE effective?
--]BK:
--]>Go do some research about what facts existed AT THAT time before
--]>making such inane suggestions.
--]
--]Whatever.
Comeon BK, be calm.:)-
--]No. Japan was already on its last legs. Plus the US knew that the
--]USSR was about to denounce its neutrality pact with Japan and declare
--]war (which they did). But that's almost irrelevant. Once the bomb
--]was functional, it was almost certain to bring about an easy US
--]victory without an invasion. If it didn't, then the atomic bombings
--]just added to the casualties and if it did, as was likely, then no
--]invasion was necessary. In either case the onus was on the US to get
--]maximum mileage out of the atomic bomb while minimizing civilian
--]casualties. I'm not opposed to the fact that the used it. I'm
--]opposed to the fact that, right out of gate, they threw everything
--]they had at civilian targets. I think Truman took the decision he did
--]with insufficient care and with some of the wrong priorities, in a way
--]that Roosevelt might well not have...
OF course all the DATA you suppose to know would be great in hypothesising
an alternative outcome, but you dont do simulations so I guese its all
jawflapping and half baked conjecture.
I wonder if you do science this way.
"I suppose that this quark should spin that way if I tweek this one the
other way...there I have said it so now it is true. I dont do sims, I
dont need to prove anything. I say it and it is..."
Great, Crash Harley sets back the Scientific method of testing an idea
back a few hundred years..
--]The tone of discourse is just fantastic these days.
Yep, folks wont take your word on things and that just about peeves you
off yor rocker:)-
From harley@argote.ch Sat, 4 May 2002 22:09:09 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:09:09 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
Tom wrote:
>[...] that just about peeves you off yor rocker:)-
Only in your fevered mind. On the contrary it seems that whenever
your chain is yanked, you make a loud flushing noise in the general
direction of FoRK, which I find quite amusing in a perverse kind of way.
I usually find your posts to be devoid of bits yet full of interesting
turns of phrase, although recently even that is lacking.
However that latest one did contain a single bit which I will respond to:
>Even after the first bomb went off on live targets the enemy was not
>willing to surrender.
Wrong.
The first bomb was set off on August 6th. On the 8th, the Japanese
Foreign Minister asked to negotiate surrender terms, with Soviet mediation.
But the Soviets didn't want to mediate and the US didn't want to
negotiate, they wanted a snivelling humiliated Japan. Later they came
to their senses and had a very reasonable policy for post-war Japan.
If they had offered it up front, much horror could have been avoided.
Instead the second bombing was moved up to the 9th.
A second plutonium core for a third bomb (actually a fourth, since a
Fat Man had been blown up in the Trinity test on July 16th) was
supposed to be shipped on the 12th and could have been assembled
within a few days.
But before that Truman ordered a stop and Oppenheimer prevented it
from leaving Los Alamos.
The military were already planning where to drop it (as is their job)
and some kept pushing for it to be delivered after Truman's order
(which is certainly not!)
Bye,
Rob.
From johnhall@evergo.net Sat, 4 May 2002 13:11:45 -0700
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 13:11:45 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
Yes, it was Historically simple too.
However, the problem was that producing that much U235 required lots of
time and enormous resources. I think we only had one, and while we
could have built more Fat Boys the Little Boy was a 1-shot deal.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Tom
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 12:11 PM
>
> --]Actually, the uranium bomb (Little Boy) was very simple:
>
> Historicaly at that time it was this simple? Or is this just Bob
Harley
> master of hindsight supposing folks back inthe 40's should have been
as
> smart as he thinks he is now?
From johnhall@evergo.net Sat, 4 May 2002 13:15:48 -0700
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 13:15:48 -0700
From: John Hall johnhall@evergo.net
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
Hiroshima was very interesting.
It was a major Army base, and it had no POW camps. It was also pristine
because it was largely immune to traditional fire-bomb attack due to
ubiquitous canals and water that formed natural fire breaks.
It was also the home area of most Japanese-Americans. It was wealth
sent home from America that helped make Hiroshima a target. (Sowell, in
his discussion of migrations).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of
Robert
> Harley
>
> But later they decided to hit large urban areas instead, and picked
> those with some strategic importance but not enough to have drawn
> bombing with conventional ordnance so that they were pristine targets.
From harley@argote.ch Sat, 4 May 2002 22:28:03 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:28:03 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
John Hall wrote:
>we could have built more Fat Boys [Men - ed]
And did, hundreds of them, until fusion weapons were developed in the 50s.
R
From kelley@interpactinc.com Sat, 04 May 2002 16:47:31 -0400
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 16:47:31 -0400
From: Kelley kelley@interpactinc.com
Subject: Bits on the Religion of Usamah bin Ladin
considering some of the insightful discussions of religion on this list,
here are some recommended, provocative bits:
http://www.publiceye.org/frontpage/911/Islam/rosenfeld2001.htm#TopOfPage
The `Religion' of Usamah bin Ladin: Terror As the Hand of God
Jean E. Rosenfeld, Ph.D.
UCLA Center for the Study of Religion
"Religion is, among other things, a construction of ultimate
reality by means of an elaborate, self-consistent system
of interpretation that is regarded as absolute truth."1
<...>
From the conclusion:
I would define religion not necessarily as God-centered, but as concerned
primarily with constructing a pure social world defined by social, sexual,
and geo-political boundaries that are in accordance with a heavenly
template conveyed to the community by an absolute authority. What is
paradigmatically religious is not the mystical experience, personal
salvation, spirituality, or belief. Religion is what binds a people
together: a self-identified mythologized history, a space guarded by a
perimeter that outsiders cross at their own peril, social roles that
conform to a received tradition, a calendar of times set apart for communal
celebration of important past events in the history of the community, a
common language, and a shared identity.
A religious community seeks to define itself as distinct from other
nationalities by asserting a claim to truth that sets it apart from and
above all other peoples. Thus, religion is integral to nationhood,
homeland, identity, meaning, and law. It establishes an ordered world that
sets the standard against which all other communities are judged. Given
these paradigmatic features, one deduces that religion and politics cannot
easily be separated and do not always belong to distinct analytic categories.
Jean E. Rosenfeld, Ph.D.
UCLA Center for the Study of Religion
jerosenfeld@cs.com
further reading:
http://www.publiceye.org/frontpage/911/wahhabism.html
09/11/01
Repercussions
Understanding Wahabbism and Salafism
For a serious study of the theology of Osama bin Laden, see:
The 'Religion' of Usamah bin Ladin: Terror As the Hand of God. Jean E.
Rosenfeld, Ph.D., UCLA Center for the Study of Religion;
Islam and the Theology of Power, Khaled Aabu El Fadl, Omar and Azmeralda
Alfi Distinguished Fellow in Islamic Law at the UCLA School of Law;
Bin Laden and Revolutionary Millennialism, Catherine Wessinger, Professor
of Religious Studies, Loyola University New Orleans, editor of
Millennialism, Persecution, and Violence: Historical Cases (2000) and
author of How the Millennium Comes Violently: From Jonestown to Heaven's
Gate (2000).]
Bin Laden's Radical Form of Islam: Most Muslims' Interpretations of the
Koran Don't Condone Terrorist Violence by Caryle Murphy
From harley@argote.ch Sat, 4 May 2002 23:17:13 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:17:13 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
>But before that Truman ordered a stop
Note that the day after Nagasaki he cracked down hard and ordered a
stop to further atomic bombs, and this before Japan surrendered.
(A few days later he ordered further conventional bombing.)
Either he suddenly realised what he had done, or perhaps he realised
what had been done. While Truman was clearly fully on board for the
Hiroshima bombing, that may not have been the case for the Nagasaki
one or possible follow-ons.
Orders to use the plutonium bombs 'when they were ready' were issued
by some generals at the end of July while Truman was away at the Potsdam
Conference and he may not have been fully aware of the plans afoot.
It is possible that some military elements were going a bit out on a
limb and taking matters somewhat into their own hands...
R
From harley@argote.ch Sat, 4 May 2002 23:40:45 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:40:45 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
>he may not have been fully aware of the plans afoot.
The decision to move the Nagasaki bombing up to the 9th was not taken
by Truman, but by the military. I don't know whether he was aware of
it, although I assume that he was informed. Perhaps he intended to
give Japan more time to react but was caught up in events... new
inexperienced president and all that. Certainly his slightly violent
reaction immediately afterwards raises suspicions in my mind.
Then again perhaps he simply grokked that the targets were far from
purely military as he had believed.
The answer may be in some archives somewhere, public or otherwise.
It would be interesting to know for sure...
R
From paul@prescod.net Sat, 04 May 2002 15:08:24 -0700
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 15:08:24 -0700
From: Paul Prescod paul@prescod.net
Subject: Tivo is Theft
Tom wrote:
>
>...
>
> Yep, cable is still an odd beast though. I would say, though I have no
> numbers to back it up, more than half of cable programing has commercials.
> Things like TLC, History Channel, FoodTV, TNN etc etc. Yet there are those
> premium channels folks are willing to pay for that make orignal programing
> with no commercials.
>
> The problem is in the cost structuring. Preimum pricing has gotten a bit
> crazy. When you get intot he tiered schema you can being paying 50 dollars
> or more per month for your viewing.
Hmmm, if you save a few months of $50.00/month you can get a pretty
large hard disk and pair it with a fast network connection. It seems
that streamed television is quickly getting to be an anachronism, except
for current events programming. Tivo is a short-term threat to their
business models but online distribution seems an even bigger long-term
threat. Pretty soon it will be commonplace to watch commercial-less
television shows without paying for cable! Outlawing Tivo won't help
because whoever felt the need to put the show onto the network will
probably have edited the commercials out "by hand".
Paul Prescod
From tomwhore@slack.net Sat, 4 May 2002 18:24:42 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 18:24:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
On Sat, 4 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]Only in your fevered mind. On the contrary it seems that whenever
--]your chain is yanked, you make a loud flushing noise in the general
--]direction of FoRK, which I find quite amusing in a perverse kind of way.
--]
--]I usually find your posts to be devoid of bits yet full of interesting
--]turns of phrase, although recently even that is lacking.
--]
Bob, I asked you to put your theories to the test. You lost it and came up
with every reason to belittle the option.
Your posts are simply conjecture with zero backbone let alone conviction.
I only wish someone else had asked you to prove out one of your ramblings
since you seemed more interested to shift the focus to another round of
"toms a buffon" rather than dealing with the concept that your full of hot
air and know that enough at least to side steps acts of proof.
So lets see, this started some where with you making verbage that the
french fleet could stack up against the US's, then when you lost footing
on that went on a tirade against US military strategy and effectivness and
then when asked to prove it in a simple simulation on a topic you raised ,
that being the possibility of a non atomic ending to the pacific theater
conflicts, you saw fit to shoot down the poster and not the content.
And so on you go shifting to another topic. shift shift shift.
and you think I am vapid. Vapidity verbosely is the yak yak de jour pour
vous.
-tom
From harley@argote.ch Sun, 5 May 2002 00:35:20 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 00:35:20 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: Hiroshima+Nagasaki casualties
(Don't mind me, I'm just musing away to myself).
Googling on it brought up this:
http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1998/mj98/mj98goldberg.html
>But there are things the record does show. On the morning of August 10,
>[...]
>Oppenheimer had received an urgent phone call from Manhattan Engineer
>District headquarters in Washington, telling him that, on order of the
>president, under no circumstances were any more plutonium cores to be
>shipped to Tinian unless Oppenheimer received explicit orders to do so
>from President Truman.
What seems significant here is that Truman didn't just want no more
atomic bombings, he ordered that the components weren't even to be
allowed to leave the lab on their way to the launch base on Tinian island.
Why would that worry him if the eventual launch was under his total control?
This strongly suggests to me that he was worried about some breakdown
in the chain of command that had occurred over the Nagasaki bomb.
I had been sort of assuming that Oppenheimer went above and beyond the
call of duty due his personal convictions. Indeed most of the
scientists on the project were in it to ensure that if Germany got the
bomb, the US would not be stuck without, not to help hit Japan which
was relatively small fry.
Apparently the German project didn't proceed much mainly due to
Heisenberg grossly overestimating the critical masses so that a
uranium bomb would need an improbably large amount of U235 and a
plutonium bomb, while feasible, would require an awfully long time to
prepare.
R
From mamrfitxhidjpfxo@netscape.net Thu, 02 May 2002 21:23:21 -0400
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From jono@networkcommand.com Sun, 5 May 2002 10:03:42 -0700
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 10:03:42 -0700
From: Jon O. jono@networkcommand.com
Subject: [DMCA_Discuss] *ASTOUNDING* Statement by Peruvian Congressman on Free Software in the Government
----- Forwarded message from Seth Johnson -----
From: Seth Johnson
Organization: Real Measures
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: DMCA_Discuss@lists.microshaft.org, cyber-rights@cpsr.org,
clift@publicus.net, DIGITALDIVIDE@OWA.BENTON.ORG, gkd@phoenix.edc.org,
duc@yahoogroups.com
(Simply breathtaking! What an inspiring statement! --
Seth)
> http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:TvfSi6UFJpQC:www.gnu.org.pe/resmseng.html+resmseng.html&hl=en&ie=utf-8
A letter from Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nuñez, Peruvian
Congressman, in response to a complaint from a General
Manager for Microsoft in Peru.
Lima, 8th of April, 2002.
To: Señor
JUAN ALBERTO GONZÁLEZ
General Manager of Microsoft, Perú
Dear Sir.
First of all, I thank you for your letter of March 25 2002
in which you state the official position of Microsoft
relative to Bill Number 1609, Free Software in Public
Administration, which is indubitably inspired by the desire
for Peru to find a suitable place in the global
technological context. In the same spirit, and convinced
that we will find the best solutions through an exchange of
clear and open ideas, I will take this opportunity to reply
to the commentaries included in your letter.
While acknowledging that opinions such as yours constitute a
significant contribution, it would have been even more
worthwhile for me if, rather than formulating objections of
a general nature (which we will analyse in detail later) you
had gathered solid arguments for the advantages that
proprietary software could bring to the Peruvian State, and
to its citizens in general, since this would have allowed a
more enlightening exchange in respect of each of our
positions.
With the aim of creating an orderly debate, we will assume
that what you call "open source software" is what the Bill
defines as "free software", since there exists software for
which the source code is distributed together with the
program, but which does not fall within the definition
established by the Bill; and that what you call "commercial
software" is what the Bill defines as "proprietary" or
"unfree", given that there exists free software which is
sold in the market for a price like any other good or
service.
It is also necessary to make it clear that the aim of the
Bill we are discussing is not directly related to the amount
of direct savings that can by made by using free software in
state institutions. That is in any case a marginal aggregate
value, but in no way is it the chief focus of the Bill. The
basic principles which inspire the Bill are linked to the
basic guarantees of a state of law, such as:
Free access to public information by the citizen.
Permanence of public data.
Security of the State and citizens.
To guarantee the free access of citizens to public
information, it is indespensable that the encoding of data
is not tied to a single provider. The use of standard and
open formats gives a guarantee of this free access, if
necessary through the creation of compatible free software.
To guarantee the permanence of public data, it is necessary
that the usability and maintenance of the software does not
depend on the goodwill of the suppliers, or on the monopoly
conditions imposed by them. For this reason the State needs
systems the development of which can be guaranteed due to
the availability of the source code.
To guarantee national security or the security of the State,
it is indispensable to be able to rely on systems without
elements which allow control from a distance or the
undesired transmission of information to third parties.
Systems with source code freely accessible to the public are
required to allow their inspection by the State itself, by
the citizens, and by a large number of independent experts
throughout the world. Our proposal brings further security,
since the knowledge of the source code will eliminate the
growing number of programs with *spy code*.
In the same way, our proposal strengthens the security of
the citizens, both in their role as legitimate owners of
information managed by the state, and in their role as
consumers. In this second case, by allowing the growth of a
widespread availability of free software not containing *spy
code* able to put at risk privacy and individual freedoms.
In this sense, the Bill is limited to establishing the
conditions under which the state bodies will obtain software
in the future, that is, in a way compatible with these basic
principles.
>From reading the Bill it will be clear that once passed:
-the law does not forbid the production of proprietary
software
-the law does not forbid the sale of proprietary software
-the law does not specifiy which concrete software to use
-the law does not dictate the supplier from whom software
will be bought
-the law does not limit the terms under which a software
product can be licensed.
What the Bill does express clearly, is that, for software to
be acceptable for the state it is not enough that it is
technically capable of fulfilling a task, but that further
the contractual conditions must satisfy a series of
requirements reguarding the license, without which the State
cannot guarantee the citizen adequate processing of his
data, watching over its integrity, confidentiality, and
accessibility throughout time, as these are very critical
aspects for its normal functioning.
We agree, Mr. Gonzalez, that information and communication
technology have a significant impact on the quality of life
of the citizens (whether it be positive or negative). We
surely also agree that the basic values I have pointed out
above are fundamental in a democratic state like Peru. So we
are very interested to know of any other way of guaranteeing
these principles, other than through the use of free
software in the terms defined by the Bill.
As for the observations you have made, we will now go on to
analyse them in detail:
Firstly, you point out that: "1. The bill makes it
compulsory for all public bodies to use only free software,
that is to say open source software, which breaches the
principles of equality before the law, that of
non-discrimination and the right of free private enterprise,
freedom of industry and of contract, protected by the
constitution."
This understanding is in error. The Bill in no way affects
the rights you list; it limites itself entirely to
establishing conditions for the use of software on the part
of state institutions, without in any way meddling in
private sector transactions. It is a well established
principle that the State does not enjoy the wide spectrum of
contractual freedom of the private sector, as it is limited
in its actions precisely by the requirement for transparency
of public acts; and in this sense, the preservation of the
greater common interest must prevail when legislating on the
matter.
The Bill protects equality under the law, since no natural
or legal person is excluded from the right of offering these
goods to the State under the conditions defined in the Bill
and without more limitations than those established by the
Law of State Contracts and Purchasing (T.U.O. por Decreto
Supremo No. 012-2001-PCM).
The Bill does not introduce any discrimination whatever,
since it only establishes *how* the goods have to be
provided (which is a state power) and not *who* has to
provide them (which would effectively be discriminatory, if
restrictions based on national origin, race religion,
ideology, sexual preference etc. were imposed). On the
contrary, the Bill is decidedly antidiscriminatory. This is
so because by defining with no room for doubt the conditions
for the provision of software, it prevents state bodies from
using software which has a license including discriminatory
conditions.
It should be obvious from the preceding two paragraphs that
the Bill does not harm free private enterprise, since the
latter can always choose under what conditions it will
produce software; some of these will be acceptable to the
State, and others will not be since they contradict the
guarantee of the basic principles listed above. This free
initiative is of course compatible with the freedom of
industry and freedom of contract (in the limited form in
which the State can exercise the latter). Any private
subject can produce software under the conditions which the
State requires, or can refrain from doing so. Nobody is
forced to adopt a model of production, but if they wish to
provide software to the State, they must provide the
mechanisms which guarantee the basic principles, and which
are those described in the Bill.
By way of an example: nothing in the text of the Bill would
prevent your company offering the State bodies an office
"suite", under the conditions defined in the Bill and
setting the price that you consider satisfactory. If you did
not, it would not be due to restrictions imposed by the law,
but to business decisions relative to the method of
commercializing your products, decisions with which the
State is not involved.
To continue; you note that:" 2. The bill, by making the use
of open source software compulsory, would establish
discriminatory and non competitive practices in the
contracting and purchasing by public bodies..."
This statement is just a reiteration of the previous one,
and so the response can be found above. However, let us
concern ourselves for a moment with your comment regarding
"non-competitive ... practices."
Of course, in defining any kind of purchase, the buyer sets
conditions which relate to the proposed use of the good or
service. From the start, this excludes certain manufacturers
from the possibility of competing, but does not exclude them
"a priori", but rather based on a series of principles
determined by the autonomous will of the purchaser, and so
the process takes place in conformance with the law. And in
the Bill it is established that *no-one* is excluded from
competing as far as he guarantees the fullfilment of the
basic principles.
Furthermore, the Bill *stimulates* competition, since it
tends to generate a supply of software with better
conditions of usability, and to better existing work, in a
model of continuous improvement.
On the other hand, the central aspect of competivity is the
chance to provide better choices to the consumer. Now, it is
impossible to ignore the fact that marketing does not play a
neutral role when the product is offered on the market
(since accepting the opposite would lead one to suppose that
firms' expenses in marketing lack any sense), and that
therefore a significant expense under this heading can
influence the decisions of the purchaser. This influence of
marketing is in large measure reduced by the bill that we
are backing, since the choice within the framework proposed
is based on the *technical merits* of the product and not on
the effort put into commercialization by the producer; in
this sense, competitvity is increased, since the smallest
software producer can compete on equal terms with the most
powerful corporations.
It is necessary to stress that there is no position more
anti-competitive than that of the big software producers,
which frequently abuse their dominant position, since in
innumerable cases they propose as a solution to problems
raised by users: "update your software to the new version"
(at the user's expense, naturally); furthermore, it is
common to find arbitrary cessation of technical help for
products, which, in the provider's judgement alone, are
"old"; and so, to receive any kind of technical assistance,
the user finds himself forced to migrate to new versions
(with non-trivial costs, especially as changes in hardware
platform are often involved). And as the whole
infrastructure is based on proprietary data formats, the
user stays "trapped" in the need to continue using products
from the same supplier, or to make the huge effort to change
to another environment (probably also proprietary).
You add: "3. So, by compelling the State to favour a
business model based entirely on open source, the bill would
only discourage the local and international manufacturing
companies, which are the ones which really undertake
important expenditures, create a significant number of
direct and indirect jobs, as well as contributing to the
GNP, as opposed to a model of open source software which
tends to have an ever weaker economic impact, since it
mainly creates jobs in the service sector."
I do not agree with your statement. Partly because of what
you yourself point out in paragraph 6 of your letter,
regarding the relative weight of services in the context of
software use. This contradiction alone would invalidate your
position. The service model, adopted by a large number of
companies in the software industry, is much larger in
economic terms, and with a tendency to increase, than the
licensing of programs.
On the other hand, the private sector of the economy has the
widest possible freedom to choose the economic model which
best suits its interests, even if this freedom of choice is
often obscured subliminally by the disproportionate
expenditure on marketing by the producers of proprietary
software.
In addition, a reading of your opinion would lead to the
conclusion that the State market is crucial and essential
for the proprietary software industry, to such a point that
the choice made by the State in this bill would completely
eliminate the market for these firms. If that is true, we
can deduce that the State must be subsidising the
proprietary software industry. In the unlikely event that
this were true, the State would have the right to apply the
subsidies in the area it considered of greatest social
value; it is undeniable, in this improbable hypothesis, that
if the State decided to subsidize software, it would have to
do so choosing the free over the proprietary, considering
its social effect and the rational use of taxpayers money.
In respect of the jobs generated by proprietary software in
countries like ours, these mainly concern technical tasks of
little aggregate value; at the local level, the technicians
who provide support for proprietary software produced by
transnational companies do not have the possibility of
fixing bugs, not necessarily for lack of technical
capability or of talent, but because they do not have access
to the source code to fix it. With free software one creates
more technically qualified employment and a framework of
free competence where success is only tied to the ability to
offer good technical support and quality of service, one
stimulates the market, and one increases the shared fund of
knowledge, opening up alternatives to generate services of
greater total value and a higher quality level, to the
benefit of all involved: producers, service organizations,
and consumers.
It is a common phenomenon in developing countries that local
software industries obtain the majority of their takings in
the service sector, or in the creation of "ad hoc" software.
Therefore, any negative impact that the application of the
Bill might have in this sector will be more than compensated
by a growth in demand for services (as long as these are
carried out to high quality standards). If the transnational
software companies decide not to compete under these new
rules of the game, it is likely that they will undergo some
decrease in takings in terms of payment for licences;
however, considering that these firms continue to allege
that much of the software used by the State has been
illegally copied, one can see that the impact will not be
very serious. Certainly, in any case their fortune will be
determined by market laws, changes in which cannot be
avoided; many firms traditionally associated with
proprietary software have already set out on the road
(supported by copious expense) of providing services
associated with free software, which shows that the models
are not mutually exclusive.
With this bill the State is deciding that it needs to
preserve certain fundamental values. And it is deciding this
based on its sovereign power, without affecting any of the
constitutional guarantees. If these values could be
guaranteed without having to choose a particular economic
model, the effects of the law would be even more beneficial.
In any case, it should be clear that the State does not
choose an economic model; if it happens that there only
exists one economic model capable of providing software
which provides the basic guarantee of these principles, this
is because of historical circumstances, not because of an
arbitrary choice of a given model.
Your letter continues: "4. The bill imposes the use of open
source software without considering the dangers that this
can bring from the point of view of security, guarantee, and
possible violation of the intellectual property rights of
third parties."
Alluding in an abstract way to "the dangers this can bring",
without specifically mentioning a single one of these
supposed dangers, shows at the least some lack of knowledge
of the topic. So, allow me to enlighten you on these points.
On security:
National security has already been mentioned in general
terms in the initial discussion of the basic principles of
the bill. In more specific terms, relative to the security
of the software itself, it is well known that all software
(whether proprietary or free) contains errors or "bugs" (in
programmers' slang). But it is also well-known that the bugs
in free software are fewer, and are fixed much more quickly,
than in proprietary software. It is not in vain that
numerous public bodies reponsible for the IT security of
state systems in developed countries require the use of free
software for the same conditions of security and efficiency.
What is impossible to prove is that proprietary software is
more secure than free, without the public and open
inspection of the scientific community and users in general.
This demonstration is impossible because the model of
proprietary software itself prevents this analysis, so that
any guarantee of security is based only on promises of good
intentions (biased, by any reckoning) made by the producer
itself, or its contractors.
It should be remembered that in many cases, the licensing
conditions include Non-Disclosure clauses which prevent the
user from publicly revealing security flaws found in the
licensed proprietary product.
In respect of the guarantee:
As you know perfectly well, or could find out by reading the
"End User License Agreement" of the products you license, in
the great majority of cases the guarantees are limited to
replacement of the storage medium in case of defects, but in
no case is compensation given for direct or indirect
damages, loss of profits, etc... If as a result of a
security bug in one of your products, not fixed in time by
yourselves, an attacker managed to compromise crucial State
systems, what guarantees, reparations and compensation would
your company make in accordance with your licencing
conditions? The guarantees of proprietary software, inasmuch
as programs are delivered ``AS IS'', that is, in the state
in which they are, with no additional responsibility of the
provider in respect of function, in no way differ from those
normal with free software.
On Intellectual Property:
Questions of intellectual property fall outside the scope of
this bill, since they are covered by specific other laws.
The model of free software in no way implies ignorance of
these laws, and in fact the great majority of free software
is covered by copyright. In reality, the inclusion of this
question in your observations shows your confusion in
respect of the legal framework in which free software is
developed. The inclusion of the intellectual property of
others in works claimed as one's own is not a practice that
has been noted in the free software community; whereas,
unfortunately, it has been in the area of proprietry
software. As an example, the condemnation by the Commercial
Court of Nanterre, France, on 27th September 2001 of
Microsoft Corp. to a penalty of 3 million francs in damages
and interest, for violation of intellectual property
(piracy, to use the unfortunate term that your firm commonly
uses in its publicity).
You go on to say that: "The bill uses the concept of open
source software incorrectly, since it does not necessarily
imply that the software is free or of zero cost, and so
arrives at mistaken conclusions regarding State savings,
with no cost-benefit analysis to validate its position."
This observation is wrong; in principle, freedom and lack of
cost are orthogonal concepts: there is software which is
proprietary and charged for (for example, MS Office),
software which is proprietary and free of charge (MS
Internet Explorer), software which is free and charged for
(RedHat, SuSE etc Gnu/Linux distributions), software which
is free and not charged for (Apache, OpenOffice, Mozilla),
and even software which can be licensed in a range of
combinations (MySQL).
Certainly free software is not necessarily free of charge.
And the text of the bill does not state that it has to be
so, as you will have noted after reading it. The definitions
included in the Bill state clearly *what* should be
considered free software, at no point referring to freedom
from charges. Although the possibility of savings in
payments for proprietary software licenses are mentioned,
the foundations of the bill clearly refer to the fundamental
guarantees to be preserved and to the stimulus to local
technological development. Given that a democratic State
must support these principles, it has no other choice than
to use software with publicly available source code, and to
exchange information only in standard formats.
If the State does not use software with these
characteristics, it will be weakening basic republican
principles. Luckily, free software also implies lower total
costs; however, even given the hypothesis (easily disproved)
that it was more expensive than proprietary software, the
simple existence of an effective free software tool for a
particular IT function would oblige the State to use it; not
by command of this Bill, but because of the basic principles
we enumerated at the start, and which arise from the very
essence of the lawful democratic State.
You continue: "6. It is wrong to think that Open Source
Software is free of charge. Research by the Gartner Group
(an important investigator of the technological market
recognized at world level) has shown that the cost of
purchase of software (operating system and applications) is
only 8% of the total cost which firms and institutions take
on for a rational and truely beneficial use of the
technology. The other 92% consists of: installation costs,
enabling, support, maintenance, administration, and
down-time."
This argument repeats that already given in paragraph 5 and
partly contradicts paragraph 3. For the sake of brevity we
refer to the comments on those paragraphs. However, allow me
to point out that your conclusion is logically false: even
if according to Gartner Group the cost of software is on
average only 8% of the total cost of use, this does not in
any way deny the existence of software which is free of
charge, that is, with a licensing cost of zero.
In addition, in this paragraph you correctly point out that
the service components and losses due to down-time make up
the largest part of the total cost of software use, which,
as you will note, contradicts your statement regarding the
small value of services suggested in paragraph 3. Now the
use of free software contributes significantly to reduce the
remaining life-cycle costs. This reduction in the costs of
installation, support etc. can be noted in several areas: in
the first place, the competitive service model of free
software, support and maintenance for which can be freely
contracted out to a range of suppliers competing on the
grounds of quality and low cost. This is true for
installation, enabling, and support, and in large part for
maintenance. In the second place, due to the reproductive
characteristics of the model, maintenance carried out for an
application is easily replicable, without incurring large
costs (that is, without paying more than once for the same
thing) since modifications, if one wishes, can be
incorporated in the common fund of knowledge. Thirdly, the
huge costs caused by non-functioning software ("blue screens
of death", malicious code such as virus, worms, and trojans,
exceptions, general protection faults and other well-known
problems) are reduced considerably by using more stable
software; and it is well-known that one of the most notable
virtues of free software is its stability.
You further state that: "7. One of the arguments behind the
bill is the supposed freedom from costs of open-source
software, compared with the costs of commercial software,
without taking into account the fact that there exist types
of volume licensing which can be highly advantageous for the
State, as has happened in other countries."
I have already pointed out that what is in question is not
the cost of the software but the principles of freedom of
information, accessibility, and security. These arguments
have been covered extensively in the preceding paragraphs to
which I would refer you.
On the other hand, there certainly exist types of volume
licensing (although unfortunately proprietary software does
not satisfy the basic principles). But as you correctly
pointed out in the immediately precding paragraph of your
letter, they only manage to reduce the impact of a component
which makes up no more than 8% of the total.
You continue: "8. In addition, the alternative adopted by
the bill (i) is clearly more expensive, due to the high
costs of software migration, and (ii) puts at risk
compatibility and interoperability of the IT platforms
within the State, and between the State and the private
sector, given the hundreds of versions of open source
software on the market."
Let us analyze your stament in two parts. Your first
argument, that migration implies high costs, is in reality
an argument in favour of the Bill. Because the more time
goes by, the more difficult migration to another technology
will become; and at the same time, the security risks
associated with proprietary software will continue to
increase. In this way, the use of proprietary systems and
formats will make the State ever more dependent on specific
suppliers. Once a policy of using free software has been
established (which certainly, does imply some cost) then on
the contrary migration from one system to another becomes
very simple, since all data is stored in open formats. On
the other hand, migration to an open software context
implies no more costs than migration between two different
proprietary software contexts, which invalidates your
argument completely.
The second argument refers to "problems in interoperability
of the IT platforms within the State, and between the State
and the private sector" This statement implies a certain
lack of knowledge of the way in which free software is
built, which does not maximize the dependence of the user on
a particular platform, as normally happens in the realm of
proprietary software. Even when there are multiple free
software distributions, and numerous programs which can be
used for the same function, interoperability is guaranteed
as much by the use of standard formats, as required by the
bill, as by the possibility of creating interoperable
software given the availability of the source code.
You then say that: "9. The majority of open source code does
not offer adequate levels of service nor the guarantee from
recognized manufacturers of high productivity on the part of
the users, which has led various public organizations to
retract their decision to go with an open source software
solution and to use commercial software in its place."
This observation is without foundation. In respect of the
guarantee, your argument was rebutted in the response to
paragraph 4. In respect of support services, it is possible
to use free software without them (just as also happens with
proprietary software), but anyone who does need them can
obtain support separately, whether from local firms or from
international corporations, again just as in the case of
proprietary software.
On the other hand, it would contribute greatly to our
analysis if you could inform us about free software projects
*established* in public bodies which have already been
abandoned in favour of proprietary software. We know of a
good number of cases where the opposite has taken place, but
not know of any where what you describe has taken place.
You continue by observing that: "10. The bill demotivates
the creativity of the peruvian software industry, which
invoices 40 million US$/year, exports 4 million US$ (10th in
ranking among non-traditional exports, more than
handicrafts) and is a source of highly qualified employment.
With a law that incentivates the use of open source,
software programmers lose their intellectual property rights
and their main source of payment."
It is clear enough that nobody is forced to commercialize
their code as free software. The only thing to take into
account is that if it is not free software, it cannot be
sold to the public sector. This is not in any case the main
market for the national software industry. We covered some
questions referring to the influence of the Bill on the
generation of employment which would be both highly
technically qualified and in better conditions for
competition above, so it seems unnecessary to insist on this
point.
What follows in your statement is incorrect. On the one
hand, no author of free software loses his intellectual
property rights, unless he expressly wishes to place his
work in the public domain. The free software movement has
always been very respectful of intellectual property, and
has generated widespread public recognition of authors.
Names like those of Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, Guido
van Rossum, Larry Wall, Miguel de Icaza, Andrew Tridgell,
Theo de Raadt, Andrea Arcangeli, Bruce Perens, Darren Reed,
Alan Cox, Eric Raymond, and many others, are recognized
world-wide for their contributions to the development of
software that is used today by millions of people throughout
the world. On the other hand, to say that the rewards for
authors rights make up the main source of payment of
Peruvian programmers is in any case a guess, in particular
since there is no proof to this effect, nor a demonstration
of how the use of free software by the State would influence
these payments.
You go on to say that: "11. Open source software, since it
can be distributed without charge, does not allow the
generation of income for its developers through exports. In
this way, the multiplier effect of the sale of software to
other countries is weakened, and so in turn is the growth of
the industry, while Government rules ought on the contrary
to stimulate local industry."
This statement shows once again complete ignorance of the
mechanisms of and market for free software. It tries to
claim that the market of sale of non- exclusive rights for
use (sale of licences) is the only possible one for the
software industry, when you yourself pointed out several
paragraphs above that it is not even the most important one.
The incentives that the bill offers for the growth of a
supply of better qualified professionals, together with the
increase in experience that working on a large scale with
free software within the State will bring for Peruvian
technicians, will place them in a highly competitive
position to offer their services abroad.
You then state that: "12. In the Forum, the use of open
source software in education was discussed, without
mentioning the complete collapse of this initiative in a
country like Mexico, where precisely the State employees who
founded the project now state that open source software did
not make it possible to offer a learning experience to
pupils in the schools, did not take into account the
capability at a national level to give adequate support to
the platform, and that the software did not and does not
allow for the levels of platform integration that now exist
in schools."
In fact Mexico has gone into reverse with the Red Escolar
(Schools Network) project. This is due precisely to the fact
that the driving forces behind the mexican project used
license costs as their main argument, instead of the other
reasons specified in our project, which are far more
essential. Because of this conceptual mistake, and as a
result of the lack of effective support from the SEP
(Secretary of State for Public Education), the assumption
was made that to implant free software in schools it would
be enough to drop their software budget and send them a CD
ROM with Gnu/Linux instead. Of course this failed, and it
couldn't have been otherwise, just as school laboratories
fail when they use proprietary software and have no budget
for implementation and maintenance. That's exactly why our
bill is not limited to making the use of free software
mandatory, but recognizes the need to create a viable
migration plan, in which the State undertakes the technical
transition in an orderly way in order to then enjoy the
advantages of free software.
You end with a rhetorical question: "13. If open source
software satisfies all the requirements of State bodies, why
do you need a law to adopt it? Shouldn't it be the market
which decides freely which products give most benefits or
value?"
We agree that in the private sector of the economy, it must
be the market that decides which products to use, and no
state interference is permissible there. However, in the
case of the public sector, the reasoning is not the same: as
we have already established, the state archives, handles,
and transmits information which does not belong to it, but
which is entrusted to it by citizens, who have no
alternative under the rule of law. As a counterpart to this
legal requirement, the State must take extreme measures to
safeguard the integrity, confidentiality, and accessibility
of this information. The use of proprietary software raises
serious doubts as to whehter these requirements can be
fulfilled, lacks conclusive evidence in this respect, and so
is not suitable for use in the public sector.
The need for a law is based, firstly, on the realization of
the fundamental principles listed above in the specific area
of software; secondly, on the fact that the State is not an
ideal homogoneous entity, but made up of multiple bodies
with varying degrees of autonomy in decision making. Given
that it is inappropriate to use proprietary software, the
fact of establishing these rules in law will prevent the
personal discretion of any state employee from putting at
risk the information which belongs to citizens. And above
all, because it constitutes an up-to-date reaffirmation in
relation to the means of management and communication of
information used today, it is based on the republican
principle of openness to the public.
In conformance with this universally accepted principle, the
citizen has the right to know all information held by the
State and not covered by well- founded declarations of
secrecy based on law. Now, software deals with information
and is itself information. Information in a special form,
capable of being interpreted by a machine in order to
execute actions, but crucial information all the same
because the citizen has a legitimate right to know, for
example, how his vote is computed or his taxes calculated.
And for that he must have free access to the source code and
be able to prove to his satisfaction the programs used for
electoral computations or calculation of his taxes.
I wish you the greatest respect, and would like to repeat
that my office will always be open for you to expound your
point of view to whatever level of detail you consider
suitable.
Cordially,
DR. EDGAR DAVID VILLANUEVA NUÑEZ
Congressman of the Republica of Perú.
_______________________________________________
------------------------
http://www.anti-dmca.org
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DMCA_Discuss@lists.microshaft.org
http://lists.microshaft.org/mailman/listinfo/dmca_discuss
----- End forwarded message -----
From harley@argote.ch Sun, 5 May 2002 19:59:42 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 19:59:42 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: French presidential election, second round result
The approximate result, according to exit polls at 8pm, is:
Jacques Chirac: 82.5
Jean-Marie Le Pen: 17.5
The abstention rate was 19.8%.
Bye,
Rob.
.-. .-.
/ \ .-. .-. / \
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
\ / `-' `-' \ /
`-' `-'
From harley@argote.ch Sun, 5 May 2002 20:01:56 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:01:56 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: French presidential election, second round result
Another poll gives 81.7 versus 18.3.
Note that a few days ago Le Pen said that he would consider anything
less than 30% a 'personal defeat'...
R
From harley@argote.ch Sun, 5 May 2002 20:05:32 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:05:32 +0200 (CEST)
From: Robert Harley harley@argote.ch
Subject: French presidential election, second round result
(For completeness) A third poll gives 82.1 versus 17.9.
R
From tomwhore@slack.net Sun, 5 May 2002 14:07:51 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:07:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: French presidential election, second round result
On Sun, 5 May 2002, Robert Harley wrote:
--]Another poll gives 81.7 versus 18.3.
--]
--]Note that a few days ago Le Pen said that he would consider anything
--]less than 30% a 'personal defeat'...
So he got his hat handed to him. Excelent. Maybe next election time
here in the US we need to all vote for Pat Buchanan in the primaries that
way we dont wind up with yet another non majority president or a battle
between dumb and dumber.
So is Le Pen goin to go join the Ross Perot retirment Home or is he
grousing for a rematch?
-tom
From elias@cse.ucsc.edu Sun, 05 May 2002 11:27:53 -0700
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 11:27:53 -0700
From: Elias Sinderson elias@cse.ucsc.edu
Subject: [DMCA_Discuss] *ASTOUNDING* Statement by Peruvian Congressman on
Free Software in the Government
I read this yesterday off slashdot and had the same reaction - a very
well thought out and educated response. I wish I could have found a copy
of the first letter sent by the Microsoft repr, but I fairly got the
main ideas from the response. There have been several other countries
which have gone the same way in the past year or so, it's heartening to
see (what I consider to be) such lucid thinking at a national level. Any
bets on how long it takes other countries go the same route?
Elias
Jon O. wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Seth Johnson -----
-=SNIP!=-
> A letter from Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nuñez, Peruvian
> Congressman, in response to a complaint from a General
> Manager for Microsoft in Peru
-=SNIP!=-
From bill@whump.com Sun, 5 May 2002 11:49:53 -0700
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:49:53 -0700
From: Bill Humphries bill@whump.com
Subject: [DMCA_Discuss] *ASTOUNDING* Statement by Peruvian Congressman on Free Software in the Government
On Sunday, May 5, 2002, at 11:27 AM, Elias Sinderson wrote:
> I wish I could have found a copy of the first letter sent by the
> Microsoft repr, but I fairly got the main ideas from the response.
It's here: http://www.gnu.org.pe/mscarta.html
I wonder when MS is going to go completely black and start marketing
trapdoor laden versions of its software to authoritarian regimes.
-- whump
From newsletters@the-financial-news.com Sun, 5 May 2002 22:15:05 +0200
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:15:05 +0200
From: The Financial News newsletters@the-financial-news.com
Subject: Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Co-investment Program
This is a multi-part message in MIME format
--=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Financial News, May 2002
Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Co-investment Program
=22...Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and the necessary support for the production in series of Mini-plants in mobile=20containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring,=20piping, and installation parts; that is to say, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22
More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework,=20Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Fa=E7ades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups,=20Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material,=20Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc.=20
Science Network has started a process of Co-investment for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of portable=20production on the site, region or country where they may be required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected to the World=20Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for world trade.
Because of financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the right thing to do is to set up assembly plants in the same countries and regions, using local=20resources (labor, some equipment, etc.)
For more information: Mini-plants in mobile containers
By Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor
Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles. Programa de Co-inversion
=22...Science Network suministrara a paises y regiones en vias de desarrollo la tecnologia y el apoyo necesario para la fabricacion en serie de Mini-plantas de=20produccion en contenedores moviles (40-foot). El sistema de mini-plantas esta dise=F1ado de forma que todas las maquinas de produccion van instaladas fijas=20sobre la propia plataforma del contenedor, con el cableado, tuberias e instalaciones; es decir, completamente equipadas... y a partir de ese momento est=E1n listas=20para producir.=22=20
Mas de 700 sistemas de produccion portatil: Panaderias, Producci=F3n de clavos de acero, Electrodos para soldadura, Recauchutado de neumaticos, Curvado de=20hierro para armaduras de construccion, Lamina perfilada para cubiertas, techos y cerramientos de fachada, Bidones de chapa, Cubos de aluminio, Menaje de=20polipropileno inyectado, Piezas de melamina prensada (vasos, platos, tazas, cafeteras, etc.) Silenciadores para vehiculos, Malla electrosoldada para la=20construccion, Bolsas y envases de plastico, Unidades moviles de asistencia medica, Material sanitario (jeringas hipodermicas, Pinzas hemostaticas, etc.)
Science Network ha puesto en marcha un proceso de Co-inversion para la instalacion de peque=F1as Plantas ensambladoras para fabricar en serie las Mini-plantas=20de produccion portatil, en el lugar, region o pais que lo necesite. Una de las caracter=EDsticas relevantes es el hecho de que dichas plantas quedaran conectadas al=20Sistema del Comercio Mundial (WTS) con acceso a mas de 50 millones de mercancias, materia primas, productos, servicios y las operaciones automaticas de=20comercio internacional.=20
Resulta obvio que por razones economicas, de costes y de impacto social, lo apropiado es instalar plantas ensambladoras en los mismos paises y regiones asi=20como utilizar los recursos locales (mano de obra, ciertos equipamientos, etc.)
Para recibir mas infromacion: Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles
Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you received this in error or would like to be removed from our list, please return us indicating: remove or un-subscribe in 'subject' field, Thanks. Editor
=A9 2002 The Financial News. All rights reserved.
--=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Financial News, May 2002
Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Co-investment Program
=22...Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and the necessary support for the production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is to say, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22
More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Façades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc.
Science Network has started a process of Co-investment for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of portable production on the site, region or country where they may be required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for world trade.
Because of financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the right thing to do is to set up assembly plants in the same countries and regions, using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.)
For more information: Mini-plants in mobile containers
By Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor
Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles. Programa de Co-inversion
=22...Science Network suministrara a paises y regiones en vias de desarrollo la tecnologia y el apoyo necesario para la fabricacion en serie de Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles (40-foot). El sistema de mini-plantas esta diseñado de forma que todas las maquinas de produccion van instaladas fijas sobre la propia plataforma del contenedor, con el cableado, tuberias e instalaciones; es decir, completamente equipadas... y a partir de ese momento están listas para producir.=22
Mas de 700 sistemas de produccion portatil: Panaderias, Producción de clavos de acero, Electrodos para soldadura, Recauchutado de neumaticos, Curvado de hierro para armaduras de construccion, Lamina perfilada para cubiertas, techos y cerramientos de fachada, Bidones de chapa, Cubos de aluminio, Menaje de polipropileno inyectado, Piezas de melamina prensada (vasos, platos, tazas, cafeteras, etc.) Silenciadores para vehiculos, Malla electrosoldada para la construccion, Bolsas y envases de plastico, Unidades moviles de asistencia medica, Material sanitario (jeringas hipodermicas, Pinzas hemostaticas, etc.)
Science Network ha puesto en marcha un proceso de Co-inversion para la instalacion de pequeñas Plantas ensambladoras para fabricar en serie las Mini-plantas de produccion portatil, en el lugar, region o pais que lo necesite. Una de las características relevantes es el hecho de que dichas plantas quedaran conectadas al Sistema del Comercio Mundial (WTS) con acceso a mas de 50 millones de mercancias, materia primas, productos, servicios y las operaciones automaticas de comercio internacional.
Resulta obvio que por razones economicas, de costes y de impacto social, lo apropiado es instalar plantas ensambladoras en los mismos paises y regiones asi como utilizar los recursos locales (mano de obra, ciertos equipamientos, etc.)
Para recibir mas infromacion: Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles
Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you received this in error or would like to be removed from our list, please return us indicating: remove or un-subscribe in 'subject' field, Thanks. Editor
© 2002 The Financial News. All rights reserved.
--=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf--
From owen@permafrost.net Sun, 5 May 2002 17:45:18 -0300
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 17:45:18 -0300
From: Owen J Byrne owen@permafrost.net
Subject: Magic Box
...Called "Gullibility"
Especially rampant among CEOs and media czars:
Owen
The American dream still lives:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Priest, a 40-something ex-con who dropped out of high school in rural
Citra, had devised his invention just a year or so earlier. He had
neither the connections nor the savvy to get rich off his magic box.
Hooking up with a former U.S. senator changed that. Paula Hawkins, a
one-term Republican from the Reagan era, never invested any money with
Priest. But she and her husband, Gene, had a golden Rolodex, and
Priest gave them a 10 percent stake in his invention to mine it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>From http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/050502/met_9322821.html
Sunday, May 5, 2002
Last modified at 12:09 a.m. on Sunday, May 5, 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Madison Priest has said he first developed his magic box in this
metal workshop outside his former home in Palatka. The Priests have
since moved to a 6,000-square-foot waterfront home in a gated
community in St. Augustine.
-- Special
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it a 'magic box' or a high-tech hoax?
Northeast Florida man attracted millions from investors who now say
they were scammed
By Matthew I. Pinzur
Times-Union staff writer
Madison Priest's history is filled with people who call him a con
artist, a geek who invented nothing more than a beautiful lie.
None of them, though, can prove it.
He appeared with his magic box, promising it could convert plain
copper phone lines that run to almost every home in the country into
greased-lightning pipelines for data and video, four times faster than
the most advanced fiber-optic cables. It was a magic box that would
shock communications like the television had, transform technology
like personal computers had, redefine entertainment like Nintendo
had. It was a magic box he built from $100 worth of spare parts.
He choreographed elaborate demonstrations, quickening the pulses of
engineers shocked by its innovation and capitalists stunned by its
potential.
He asked for money and received it, sometimes more than a million
dollars at a time, enough to move him from a cobblestone street in
Palatka to a gated community in St. Augustine.
And then he stalled, stymied and stonewalled. Prototypes were
destroyed by lightning, floods and plane crashes, he said. They were
too unstable for independent tests. Just a little more money, he said,
and it would be ready. Just a little bit more.
Every time, he wore out his partners -- rich partners like Blockbuster
and Intel, prominent partners like former U.S. Sen. Paula Hawkins and
the son of Atlanta media czar Ted Turner, partners who brought him to
Silicon Valley and partners who brought him to Capitol Hill.
MULTIMEDIA
'Magic Box' comparison test
Pyramid of Players
Sometimes they sued him, sometimes they threatened him and sometimes
they just threw up their arms in disgust, but they walked away and
left their money with him. Priest -- who declined repeated interview
requests -- never needed to mourn the loss of old partners; he just
found new ones. He has had many since 1994, and they have paid him at
least $6 million.
They could never quite prove that his stories -- not his magic box --
were the inventions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Madison Priest shows a patent certificate issued by the
U.S. government for his magic box technology. Priest said the box
could transmit data much faster than any existing system, and could
do it through an ordinary household telephone line.
-- Special
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is a scam, they concede, it is truly a beautiful one.
The Revelation
A fortune can become a failure with a single phone call, which four
Jacksonville-area entrepreneurs learned as their deal with Priest
unraveled in 1998.
The four, including Teddy Turner, formed a company called Zekko in
1997, and soon its only business plan was to turn Priest's invention
into a product.
None of them really liked Priest, but none of them cared. He was their
Bill Gates, and his invention was their Microsoft.
It was almost a sure thing.
Priest was ferociously protective of its secrets, though, and by
mid-1998 he was missing deadlines to turn over working prototypes.
But the investors wanted so badly to believe, and they moved on their
faith and on their greed. By September 1998, Zekko had raised almost
$6 million, with as much as $1 million going directly to Priest and
his wife, Linda. Another $36 million was on its way.
And then the phone call came, a pinpoint moment where hope and trust
became betrayal and panic.
The day after a critical fund-raising trip to woo major
telecommunications firms in Chicago, court records show Linda Priest
called one of Zekko's founding fathers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linda Priest solders components to a circuit inside the Priests'
Palatka workshop. In September 1998, Linda Priest told investors
that her husband's magic box was a hoax.
-- Special
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was all a hoax, she said. There was no invention. There was only
The Revelation.
Selling the Holy Grail
Today the Priests live in a 6,000-square-foot waterfront home, where
five motorcycles, two trucks, a Jaguar, a Lincoln Town Car and a
Mitsubishi Eclipse are all registered in their names, as are two small
propeller airplanes.
But in 1994, they were living in a far more modest home, a mile or two
from sleepy downtown Palatka.
Priest, a 40-something ex-con who dropped out of high school in rural
Citra, had devised his invention just a year or so earlier. He had
neither the connections nor the savvy to get rich off his magic box.
Hooking up with a former U.S. senator changed that. Paula Hawkins, a
one-term Republican from the Reagan era, never invested any money with
Priest. But she and her husband, Gene, had a golden Rolodex, and
Priest gave them a 10 percent stake in his invention to mine it.
About this series
The Times-Union's coverage of Madison Priest and his "magic box" is
the result of a five-month investigation by reporter Matthew I. Pinzur
and editor Marilyn Young.
Roughly four dozen interviews were conducted with partners, investors,
engineers and others familiar with Priest's dealings. Hundreds of
pages of public records and other documents were inspected, including
seven lawsuits filed in state and federal courts in Florida,
California and Colorado.
Neither Priest nor his wife, Linda, agreed to be interviewed, despite
repeated verbal and written requests.
About the photos
Most of the photographs in this series were provided by Mark Strong, a
former business partner of Madison Priest. Many are still frames taken
from videos shot by Strong at meetings, tests and demonstrations
spanning from 1996 through 2001.
Meetings the Hawkinses arranged with politicians such as Sen. Orrin
Hatch were encouraging, but nothing compared to to the response from
top executives at Blockbuster.
Blockbuster wanted Priest's invention badly, Gene Hawkins said, as if
the entertainment giant's survival depended on it. And, in fact, it
might have. Video stores could crumble if people could watch movies
over their phone lines, and Priest promised exactly that ability.
Phone lines have long been considered far too slow to carry the huge
amounts of data necessary for high-quality video. Those limits created
the need for cable modems and other high-performance data lines, like
the T-1 and T-3 lines running in many businesses. Priest's invention
would make those old phone lines faster than anything on the market,
decimating the communications speed limit.
"That was the enormous breakthrough," Gene Hawkins said. "It was just
conventional, regular, plain old telephone lines."
Gene Hawkins said he worked steadily on the project for months. He led
Priest to Wayne Huizenga, then the chairman and CEO of Blockbuster. He
also connected Priest with US West CEO Richard McCormick and other
six-figure investors.
Court records indicate the Priests netted at least $2.25 million in
those early deals, primarily from Blockbuster. Blockbuster and US West
declined to comment.
In what would become an unwavering pattern, Priest took the investment
cash without turning over working prototypes. By the end of 1996,
Blockbuster and US West appear to have walked away.
"The bigger the fish you go after, the less likely they are to come
after you," said Bob Mons, an investment banker and one of Zekko's
founding partners in Ponte Vedra Beach. "They don't want to admit to
being taken by a flimflam man from Palatka."
By that time, Gene Hawkins said, he and his wife had discovered
Priest's criminal record, including numerous arrests and at least one
conviction for grand theft. The arrests were years earlier, but were
enough for the Hawkinses to stop working with him.
"That was very hurtful and disappointing, so we turned very, very
sour, my wife in particular," Hawkins said.
The Priests' history is vague, clouded by years of varying stories the
Priests told their business partners.
Priest, now 46, sometimes spoke of being a graduate of the Air Force
Academy, lawsuits and interviews show. There are no records of his
attendance there, which he explained by telling people he was assigned
to super-secret covert operations. Sometimes he told potential
investors he had worked on a classified missile and weapons design
team for aerospace defense contractor Martin Marietta, according to a
lawsuit filed by Zekko. But according to that lawsuit, he was never
more than a low-level assembly line worker, and was fired for stealing
equipment.
"Depending on the audience, the story would take on different
embellishments," said Mark Strong, a Naples investor who became the
Priests' closest business partner and later their most determined
opponent. "If he thought the audience was really clueless, he would
really spread it on."
Before stepping back, Gene Hawkins said he introduced Priest to
K.C. Craichy, a Tampa businessman who became close with the
inventor. Craichy and a friendgave Priest about $500,000 for a stake
in VisionTek, the company the Priests formed to sell their
invention. Craichy also agreed to serve as its CEO.
At the same time, in mid-1996, Orange Park real estate broker Walter
Williams and at least 10 other investors from Florida saw
demonstrations and invested nearly $300,000. Citing confidentiality
agreements from a lawsuit settlement, Williams refused to discuss the
deal with the Times-Union.
As many as 25 or 30 others may have invested at the same time, Strong
said.
"He literally sold it to anyone who walked through the door --
friends, relatives, whoever he could get money from," said a source
familiar with Zekko, who requested anonymity because a confidentiality
agreement bars him from discussing the matter.
That money, like all the rest invested in VisionTek, went directly to
Priest and his wife, according to many of their former partners.
Potential investors were dumbfounded by the demonstrations, which
seemed generations beyond state of the art. With a conventional modem,
one computer can transmit a music video -- with a small, fuzzy picture
-- in an hour or more. At Priest's demonstrations, though, investors
saw that same computer send video instantly. The Eagles' performance
of Tequila Sunrise showed up on the second computer in digitally
perfect full-screen glory, the music as clear as a compact disc.
Even with top-grade fiber optic cables, that kind of quality was rare
at the time. Amazingly, the computers at Priest's demonstrations
appeared to be connected with ordinary telephone cord. The only other
wires were the electric cords that plugged the computers into a power
strip.
The results were so staggering that investors said they overlooked
Priest's demand -- his paranoia, even -- that no one so much as touch
a keyboard.
"He had a Holy Grail that was the telecommunications equivalent of
cold fusion," Mons said.
Craichy had seen Priest's elaborate show for about a year, always at
places carefully prepped by Priest with computers provided by Priest
and videos selected by Priest. Now Craichy wanted independent tests in
which he controlled those variables.
As soon as he suggested it, Craichy said, Priest vanished.
"He wouldn't take my calls, he wouldn't come see me," Craichy
said. "He disappeared."
Tomorrow: As Priest's deals begin to unravel, his claims become even
more daring.
Deception revealed
The day after Linda Priest's 1998 confession to Zekko technology chief
Herb Presley, he and Mons drove to Palatka to investigate.
It was Sept. 11, 1998, and it was the beginning of The Revelation.
Mons, who had been the primary fund-raiser for the nearly $6 million
Zekko collected that year, said he planned to confiscate whatever
prototypes he and Presley could find. Linda Priest's phone call
notwithstanding, he still believed they would find some components,
which could be given to engineers and possibly still turned into a
product.
But any hope of keeping Zekko alive dissolved in the next few hours,
according to interviews and court records.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linda Priest stands next to testing equipment during an examination
of Madison Priest's magic box at Intertek Testing Services in
Orlando. Though some tests of the box appeared successful, investors
now suspect the technology does not exist and the box was a hoax.
-- Special
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A computer at the Priests' home, which Strong said Linda Priest
believed was a key part of her husband's network for that
demonstration, turned out not to be a computer at all. Inside the
steel computer case, Mons said, there were no circuit boards, no disk
drives, no power source.
There was only a VCR.
The Revelation continued when Linda Priest took them to Kay Larkin
Airport, a municipal airstrip in Palatka, where her husband rented a
hangar for his planes. They found no prototypes, nothing that could
have salvaged Zekko's investment. What they did find was plenty of
evidence to suggest a massive fraud.
There were boxes of unused components. There were circuit boards
configured with what the Zekko source called "obvious sneaks." And
there was the power strip.
Hidden inside two power cords that plugged into the strip was a single
piece of coaxial cable, which could secretly connect two
computers. Sending video over coaxial cable is old technology, the
basis of cable television. By hiding that cable in a power strip,
Priest could make it appear that the video was traveling over phone
lines.
"We found stuff that really scared the hell out of us," Mons said.
Arrogance, anxiety
As Priest's relationships with Craichy and the Hawkinses were
crumbling around 1996, he found a new source of money and influence.
Strong had just sold a successful chain of medical imaging companies
and was itching for a new business venture. He saw a demonstration in
Tampa and was hooked.
"I thought I would be the guy that finally got this technology
developed," Strong said. "That was my supreme arrogance."
He consulted Geoff Workman, a San Francisco merchant banker
experienced with high-tech innovations, who advised him to move
slowly.
"We've got an uneducated country bumpkin with a weird background in
aerospace, who invented this in his workshop," Workman said. "I told
Mark, 'This is going to require a lot of due diligence and vetting
before we know if anything's even there.'"
Priest, though, was masterful at urging people to invest quickly,
Strong said.
"If you didn't jump on this, some big company would get on it and
you'd be aced out," Strong said.
Strong invested $100,000, and six months later he was ready to buy
Priest's entire company. He had negotiated test-site agreements with
three institutions, including the University of Florida and Columbia
Hospital Corp. As soon as he had 40 working units for those clients,
Strong said, he would sign the deal.
He never received them.
Strong's concern blossomed into heavy anxiety in April 1997, when
Priest was nearly killed in a car wreck in his bright red Corvette.
"They said there was a chance he could die," Strong said. "If he died,
the project was over."
During Priest's convalescence, Strong realized the risk of keeping the
invention's secrets locked in its inventor's brain. He shifted his
pressure on Priest from building the 40 units to documenting the
technology.
Priest had always refused to draw complete schematics. Engineers who
examined his diagrams were baffled when they showed components working
beyond their capacity or being used in ways never intended. But like
every story Priest told, there was always a nugget of truth, however
obscure. The designs were implausible, the engineers said, but never
quite impossible.
"His ideas are interesting and provocative, so he's got a good story,"
said Hal Puthoff, a Texas physicist considered an expert in the
concepts Priest said he was using. "It might not be a true story, but
it hangs together, at least in his own jargon."
After the wreck, Priest promised to explain everything in writing,
calling Strong five or 10 times a day to update him.
"It was just all talk," Strong said. "He never filled in all the
blanks."
While Strong waited, Priest began building the foundation for his next
set of partners.
Presley and another high-tech industry entrepreneur, Michael Newman,
were planning to invest $2 million in the project just after Priest's
wreck. Within six months, Presley and Newman had joined Mons and Teddy
Turner to form Zekko, and Strong had been almost completely cut out.
The deal with Zekko, detailed in an October 1997 letter, handed the
Priests a lump payment of $500,000 and the potential to earn millions
more.
The deal itself would not be signed for more than six months because
the Priests, Linda especially, would call for endless revisions. Zekko
officers now believe they were simply stalling for time.
"She was a first-time girl trying to be a lawyer," Mons said of Linda
Priest, who did not respond to interview requests. "She was unbearably
difficult to negotiate with."
But in late 1997, everything still looked stable. Presley and Newman
found experts to examine the invention while Mons and Turner sought
investors to fund it.
Priest, though, became their biggest obstacle on both fronts, Zekko
officials said. Potential investors, most worth at least $1 million,
were put off by his rural Florida twang, his T-shirts that said
"rocket scientist," and breath so bad it could choke a man in close
conversation.
Scientists and engineers were also frustrated in conversations with
him: The self-taught inventor spoke a different scientific language
than the Ph.D.s. They would praise the invention's potential, but
refused to vouch for it until they could take the box apart and test
it themselves.
None of it deterred Zekko. Priest claimed to be using theories called
low-energy or zero-point physics, an obscure new scientific terrain.
"This is like the netherworld of physics," Mons said. "You cannot get
anyone to come in and vet this and give it absolute verification."
While Presley struggled to arrange conclusive tests, Mons and Turner
began raising more than $1.5 million from individual investors in late
1997. That Turner was attached to the project only made investors more
confident.
"Obviously that was a good name, and there was some talk that CNN
would be an end user," said Dave Wild, a South Florida investor who
put $63,000 into the project.
Indeed, Turner arranged a demonstration for his father at CNN's
Atlanta headquarters, according to Mons. Ted Turner did not return
phone calls, and his son declined to discuss the matter, but Mons said
CNN wanted to be the company's first client. Ted Turner provided
Priest workspace at the CNN building, Mons said, and asked him to
build a prototype. It never happened.
Looking back, Zekko's founders and investors see how Priest's endless
stalling and laughable excuses should have made them more cautious.
At least 10 times, according to court records, Priest said working
prototypes were hit by lightning. Other times he would claim they were
damaged in floods, damaged in rains or otherwise became "unstable."
No one could force Priest to work faster or deliver the independent
tests.
"Every time we told him to put up," Mons said, "he threatened to blow
up and go away."
A half-mile lie
Even the phony computers and trick power strips did not prepare the
Zekko bosses for the next day, when The Revelation continued and grew
as they revisited buildings where Priest had hosted demonstrations.
At one site after another, Mons said, they found hidden lines of
coaxial cable. In some places it was buried shallowly in the dirt. In
others it was snaked along bushes.
The most dumbfounding was at the Fort Gates Ferry, a ramshackle barge
that crosses the St. Johns River near Welaka. Priest would often
demonstrate the invention there, transmitting video from a computer on
one side of the river to a partner on the other side. It seemed, the
Zekko executives thought, an impossible test to fake.
Then they saw more than a half-mile of coaxial cable coiled on the
dock.
"Madison had actually run co-ax under the St. Johns River there," Mons
said.
The ferryman at Fort Gates, Dale Jones, confirmed to the Times-Union
that Priest had paid him to string the cable, but refused to discuss
the matter.
The river is about a half-mile wide at the ferry, long enough that the
cable would need special devices to amplify the signal. The Zekko
source said the company had provided Priest with just such devices.
Rush to settlement
By the time Zekko's partners were getting queasy about Madison Priest,
they were in too deep to retreat. In addition to more than $1.5
million Mons raised in late 1997, court records show prominent
California computer chip maker Level One invested $3.5 million from
October 1997 to January 1998.
The cash was flowing out of Zekko even faster than it was coming
in. The contract with Priest had already paid him $500,000, and both
Mons and another Zekko source said the inventor eventually got as much
as $1 million of Zekko funds. In addition, the inventor's previous
partners, including Craichy, Strong and the Hawkinses, began laying
claim to the technology's rights. "We needed a clear title to this
technology," Mons said, "and we were in a hurry."
So Zekko settled with everyone, according to company documents, paying
out more than $1 million. Strong, who had signed non-circumvention
agreements with Zekko bosses, received the juiciest deal: $525,000
cash, a $15,000 monthly consulting agreement and possible
royalties. Craichy received $30,000 to $50,000, and the Hawkinses --
who invested only time, never money -- settled for a consulting
agreement that was supposed to pay out $360,000. However, Gene Hawkins
said they never received more than about $20,000.
"All those consultants; maybe only one worked for the company," the
Zekko source said. "The rest were getting paid to settle."
No one from Level One, which has since been purchased by Intel, would
comment on their investment in Zekko. Priest repeatedly postponed
delivery of working prototypes during 1998, and by September, Zekko's
officers could not imagine why Priest continued to miss delivery
deadlines and stall on conclusive testing. Before flying with Priest
to meet with eager investors from Ameritech and GTE in Chicago, one of
Zekko's executives confronted Linda Priest, the Zekko source said.
If this was a hoax, she was warned, Zekko would pursue them like
Captain Ahab followed his whale. Major corporations like Blockbuster
might have been willing to write off their losses to avoid the
negative publicity associated with lawsuits, but Zekko had no such
compunctions.
Because Linda Priest had become the court-appointed liquidator for
VisionTek, the Zekko executive assured her she would be easier to
convict than her husband and serve more jail time. If she had anything
to confess, he told her, now was the time.
She said nothing, and the trip to Chicago went on as planned, with
Priest joined by Presley and another Zekko board member. The companies
offered to write a check for more than $36 million on the spot. The
Zekko executives held off, though. Both company sources and David
Hodges, a Jacksonville private investigator hired by Strong, said
Zekko wanted to be completely secure in the technology before putting
major telecommunications companies on the hook for that much cash. Had
the top executives accepted the check, some would have received
bonuses as high as $875,000.
"The day before, you thought you were a billionaire," the Zekko source
said. "Then you've got serious questions."
Profiting from belief
Ironically, it was fallout from Priest's Chicago demonstrations that
destroyed Zekko.
Linda Priest's version of those events, according to Mons and other
sources, went like this:
She believed her husband usually demonstrated the technology by
connecting to a modem in their home computer, so she expected him to
call from Chicago and tell her to turn it on. Unbeknownst to her, he
was using the computer in his shop, which was already on. When he
failed to call that day, she grew suspicious and opened the home
computer. Inside the case she found nothing but a VCR.
When Priest returned to Palatka the next day, his wife was gone. She
had emptied their house and filed separation papers in court. She
initiated The Revelation when she called Presley, Zekko's technology
chief, and told her story. She also called the FBI.
"She was in this up to her eyeballs," Mons said. "Now she was trying
to extricate herself."
The accusations sent Zekko into a tailspin. The company's officers
spent the next few days discovering staggering evidence of a massive
scam. Many resigned in disgust, their investors' stock apparently
worthless. Zekko stopped paying Priest and everyone else.
"This is a very well-orchestrated con, and there are a lot of people
involved," Mons said.
It might have all ended here, with Priest dismissed as a scheming nerd
who knew nothing special after all.
But Madison Priest knew one thing had not changed. People -- even
smart, rich and powerful people -- want to believe in a magic box.
Within three months, Linda Priest would recant her accusations and
reconcile with her husband. They would enigmatically explain the
damning evidence as fallout from amnesia related to Priest's car
accident -- amnesia they never mentioned at the time. They would
accuse Zekko of breaking its contract, voiding the company's claim to
the invention.
They wrapped the same old box with a ribbon of fresh, new
stories. This time, the plan -- and the stakes -- would be even
grander.
Times-Union library director Jennifer O'Neill and staff writer Marilyn
Young contributed to this report.
Staff writer Matthew I. Pinzur can be reached at (904) 359-4025 or via
e-mail at mpinzur@jacksonville.com.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From wkearney99@hotmail.com Sun, 5 May 2002 19:49:10 -0400
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 19:49:10 -0400
From: Bill Kearney wkearney99@hotmail.com
Subject: FoRK digest, Vol 1 #997 - 17 msgs
> Please tone it down a bit.
It's FoRK. Get a helment. At least it's not off.ramp.
> Actually, the uranium bomb (Little Boy) was very simple: shoot a
> sub-critical lump of U235 into another one and boom!
Neglecting to realize the staggering complexities of what it takes to make that
uranium let alone plutonium. Neglecting to factor the costs of maintaining such
an effort, especially since it had been a secret project up until that time.
Transitioning from a one-off series of tests into full production, regardless of
opinions about such effort, would take quite a few more years.
> During the
> Manhattan Project measures were taken to ensure that lumps of uranium
> were stored interspersed with lumps of lead because otherwise a
> careless worker could cause an atomic explosion.
Uh no, the understanding of what or wasn't going to happen was, until quite
late, a mystery. How this factors into the availability of "demo" bombs is also
a mystery.
> but in ball-park figures it was 20 or 30 kilos which would
> have taken the US three or four months to produce.
Neglecting, again, to realize the incredible amount of attention that the
budgeting for such effort would require. Now that it wasn't a secret, the
prying eye of Congress would undoubtedly delay things a bit.
> Szilard said about Secretary of War Stimson;
Ah yes, Szilard. That explains the slant here. Arguing now as to whether the
atomic bomb campaign was or wasn't necessary, as a dodge from silly discussions
of French naval situations, is nothing more than an artful dodge into anti-US
rhetoric.
> >He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one [...]
I'm sure the fellow asian citizens in the South Pacific would take issue with
how the Japanese invasions were "purely military" too. Trying to define what is
or isn't military seems reasonable-- until you factor the realities of condtions
at the time.
> Fact is, they were "in the pipeline".
And had the your demos of the two that did exist, upon making news of their
devastating power, caused Congress to back off funding and grind the development
of the ones (barely) in the pipeline to a halt, where would things have been?
The folks that want to second guess these situations always seems to fail to
consider that sort of angle, one QUITE prevalent as a problem with political
commitees at the time and arguably still.
> they had at civilian targets. I think Truman took the decision he did
> with insufficient care and with some of the wrong priorities, in a way
> that Roosevelt might well not have...
Well, if you're going down the road of conjecture then enlighten us with the
alternatives that would have developed for the region.
Fortunately, Tom picks up the ball here...
> From: Tom
> --]Hi Bill. Please tone it down a bit.
>
> Translation...You bring up some good points and that's a threat to me. So
> now I will try to play off as the claim rational one and make you seem the
> wildly yelling boob.
Why thank you Tom, well said.
> --]Yes we do.
>
> Ahh, We. There is always a WE in there somewhere/
Indeed, much those nefarious "they" in "they always say..."
> --]Actually, the uranium bomb (Little Boy) was very simple:
>
> Historicaly at that time it was this simple? Or is this just Bob Harley
> master of hindsight supposing folks back inthe 40's should have been as
> smart as he thinks he is now?
This is how folks that don't truly understand history continue to warp it based
on their lack of understanding about the present as well. They want so
desparately to believe they "know" something that they'll twist facts in all
sorts of indivually almost plausible ways. Unfortunately for them, some folks
do know the story come along and call them on their multiple errors. This, as
Tom rightly points out, is where their "righteous indignation" tends to emerge.
They're still wrong, but somehow feel vindicated for being attacked by folks in
possession of those "pesky facts."
> Even after the first bomb went off on live targets the enemy was not
> willing to surrender. Do you think a demo over a non civi target would
> have been MORE effective?
And Congress, upon the revelation of this secret effort, wouldn't have stalled
it further?
> --]Whatever.
> Comeon BK, be calm.:)-
Yep, "whatever". I'll just rest easy on the knowlege of being correct and not
wildly speculating.
> --]The tone of discourse is just fantastic these days.
>
> Yep, folks wont take your word on things and that just about peeves you
> off yor rocker:)-
> But the Soviets didn't want to mediate and the US didn't want to
> negotiate, they wanted a snivelling humiliated Japan. Later they came
> to their senses and had a very reasonable policy for post-war Japan.
> If they had offered it up front, much horror could have been avoided.
Forgetting, of course, how our occupation and reconstruction of Japan went out
of it's way to AVOID a sniveling and humiliated Japan. With MacArthur in charge
no less, a devout man of the military mindset.
> And did, hundreds of them, until fusion weapons were developed in the 50s.
And the time was available for all the debates and committee meetings. The
"50's" wasn't 1945 and we weren't at war.
> It is possible that some military elements were going a bit out on a
> limb and taking matters somewhat into their own hands...
Right, right, of course, that runaway US military again.
> The answer may be in some archives somewhere, public or otherwise.
> It would be interesting to know for sure...
Indeed, and the feedback of a historian, well-versed in the facts, unlike all
this strung-together conjecture, would be very nice to read. I'll wait for
their learned results.
> I only wish someone else had asked you to prove out one of your ramblings
> since you seemed more interested to shift the focus to another round of
> "toms a buffon" rather than dealing with the concept that your full of hot
> air and know that enough at least to side steps acts of proof.
>
> And so on you go shifting to another topic. shift shift shift.
Indeed. Why bother to stay on topic when you can wander about wildly? The
fantasy perhaps is being perceived as having some sort of great range of
knowlege. This usually results in the opinion of others being "shallow puddle,
very wide" and not "deep ocean". I'm going with the puddle analogy here.
That, folks, about wraps it up. So instead of trying to twist limited knowlege
of current events with the even more limited appreciation of history, how about
we attempt genuine discourse instead? I suspect this audience has a few good
ideas about real facts. Let's find a way to get those out instead of all this
stupid fantasizing. We have usenet for that.
-Bill Kearney
From garym@canada.com 05 May 2002 21:55:28 -0400
Date: 05 May 2002 21:55:28 -0400
From: Gary Lawrence Murphy garym@canada.com
Subject: [DMCA_Discuss] *ASTOUNDING* Statement by Peruvian Congressman on Free Software in the Government
>>>>> "B" == Bill Humphries writes:
B> On Sunday, May 5, 2002, at 11:27 AM, Elias Sinderson wrote:
>> I wish I could have found a copy of the first letter
B> It's here: http://www.gnu.org.pe/mscarta.html
Isn't it a tad peculiar that both letters are only available on a
gnu.org mirror and that, despite the provocation being in Spanish, the
'reply' letter is in (excellent) English?
I'm not accusing anyone of myth-information, but I'd be happier with a
more impartial source ;) Even the ORA.net coverage of this story never
bothers to ask how gnu.org.pe _got_ these letters in the first place.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy TeleDynamics Communications Inc
Business Innovations Through Open Source Systems: http://www.teledyn.com
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
From beberg@mithral.com Sun, 5 May 2002 18:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 18:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam L. Beberg beberg@mithral.com
Subject: [DMCA_Discuss] *ASTOUNDING* Statement by Peruvian Congressman
on Free Software in the Government
On Sun, 5 May 2002, Bill Humphries wrote:
> I wonder when MS is going to go completely black and start marketing
> trapdoor laden versions of its software to authoritarian regimes.
1983?
- Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg
http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/
beberg@mithral.com
From tomwhore@slack.net Sun, 5 May 2002 22:44:10 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:44:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom tomwhore@slack.net
Subject: [DMCA_Discuss] *ASTOUNDING* Statement by Peruvian Congressman
on Free Software in the Government
On Sun, 5 May 2002, Adam L. Beberg wrote:
--]On Sun, 5 May 2002, Bill Humphries wrote:
--]
--]> I wonder when MS is going to go completely black and start marketing
--]> trapdoor laden versions of its software to authoritarian regimes.
--]
--]1983?
Sounds about right:)- Heck ,I wonder if that paper tape version of basic
had any gunk in it.
From elias@cse.ucsc.edu Mon, 06 May 2002 00:38:11 -0700
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 00:38:11 -0700
From: Elias Sinderson elias@cse.ucsc.edu
Subject: [DMCA_Discuss] *ASTOUNDING* Statement by Peruvian Congressman on
Free Software in the Government
Yes, yes, I found that linked to from the slashdot blurb - unfortunately
I don't speak spanish well enough to read enough of the letter.
Babblefish is, well, babblefish and, while it is something, is certainly
not the fluent english that the response is... Thanks though. :-)
Elias
Bill Humphries wrote:
> On Sunday, May 5, 2002, at 11:27 AM, Elias Sinderson wrote:
>
>> I wish I could have found a copy of the first letter sent by the
>> Microsoft repr, but I fairly got the main ideas from the response.
>
>
> It's here: http://www.gnu.org.pe/mscarta.html
>
> I wonder when MS is going to go completely black and start marketing
> trapdoor laden versions of its software to authoritarian regimes.
>
> -- whump
From sdw@lig.net Mon, 6 May 2002 10:46:51 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:46:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen D. Williams sdw@lig.net
Subject: Run!
------=_z()+NsG6PyEX+4Iw+j5dU)y_OVvn)eHmS/.9.x1WoZ++(8XQ2iawsoZI41-8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/
sdw
--
sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st
Stephen D. Williams
43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax Dec2001
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