[FoRK] Gibson's movie, Christianity-themed books, etc. was re:Coulter: Musli

Geege geege4 at bellsouth.net
Sat Mar 13 14:30:14 PST 2004


the gospels are allegorical achetypes.  matthew: jesus the man; mark: jesus the king; luke: jesus the son of god; john: jesus the redeemer. (actually can't remember which is which, but this was how my dad explained the gospels to me. er, maybe one of them was "jesus the sacrificial lamb" ...)

grabbing a new testament NOW for review.

-----Original Message-----
From: fork-bounces at xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces at xent.com]On Behalf Of
Gregory Alan Bolcer
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 9:16 AM
To: fork at xent.com
Subject: RE: [FoRK] Gibson's movie, Christianity-themed books,etc. was
re:Coulter: Musli


So you are arguing that the gospels are the only recording of Jesus'
life.  I am not sure how to respond to that other than you must be
a strict creationist, and I thought I had you pegged as an atheist zealot. 
 
I repeat, your religious ignorance is astounding.   You take an argument and
side step it by following one line and only for written text.  You are
arguing that the written text is not 100% historically accurate and
not the point I was making that there is an abundance of evidence
supporting the final days of Jesus' life.  As always, you seem to
enjoy generalizing from one narrow point of familiarity as seen
through your own biases.  So, Mr. "I don't know the difference
between a zygote and a fetus, and there's no privacy issues in
abortion especially in the first 4 weeks, and 'I hadn't heard of
that so it must not be true generalizer", are you familiar with:
 
  Simon (Peter)
  Andres, Brother of Peter
  James, Son of Zebedee
  John, Son of Zebedee
  Philip
  Bartholomew
  Thomas (I doubt you've heard of him)
  Matthew
  James, Son of Alphaeus
  Jude (Thaddeus)
  Simon (the Zealot)
  Judas "The traitor" Iscariot
 
and also:
        Matthias
       Paul
 
Knock yourself out. 
 
Greg
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: fork-bounces at xent.com on behalf of Russell Turpin 
Sent: Thu 3/11/2004 6:55 PM 
To: fork at xent.com 
Cc: 
Subject: RE: [FoRK] Gibson's movie, Christianity-themed books,etc. was re:Coulter: Musli



	Gregory Alan Bolcer:
	>I think it's pretty safe to say that you don't understand how the history
	>of Jesus, the
	>actual human being came to be captured nor why.
	
	Actually, I do. Here's the short version. A
	messianic religion was spread to various points
	in the Roman empire by Paul, whose preaching
	and epistles created the ideology of the nascent
	religion. Paul never knew "Jesus, the actual
	human being," and unsurprisingly, there is very
	little about the "actual human being" in his
	epistles, in which the messiah is largely an
	abstraction. Some decades later, perhaps after
	Paul had died, the young religion needed
	narrative biography of its messiah. Many
	were written, of which four eventually were
	included in the religion's canon.
	
	None of the canonical gospels explicitly names
	its author. Church fathers such as Iraneus give
	them hearsay attributions which are accepted
	by the faithful. According to these traditional
	attributions, only two of the gospel authors
	knew "Jesus, the actual human being." That
	does NOT include the oldest of the canonical
	gospels (which curiously, omits a resurrection
	story in its original version.) In any case, we
	can't know for sure who wrote the gospels.
	What we do know is that all the gospels
	were written by believers, for religious
	purpose, and that there was considerable
	plagiarism between them, or on earlier stories.
	
	Outside these religious sources, there is
	no information about "Jesus, the actual
	human being." The handful of non-Christian
	references in the first century are derivative.
	"Jesus, the actual human being," simply wasn't
	of enough interest when he was alive to
	engender any writing, and wasn't of any
	interest outside Paul's new religion until
	later, when that religion gained visibility
	in the larger society.
	
	If you think this gives us any basis for
	thinking we know anything about "Jesus,
	the actual human being," in a secular sense,
	then the problem may not be so much
	ignorance as credulity.
	
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