[FoRK] Nerve

Gregory Alan Bolcer gbolcer at endeavors.com
Sun May 2 08:59:43 PDT 2004


The point was they are using propaganda to fight
propaganda.   The statement was an example of my
thesis: that you can conquer the city a dozen times,
but it still wouldn't accomplish anything.   The
little brother thesis:  You can beat the shit out of
you little brother any times he aggravates you, but
your not going to change who he is. 
 
bin Laden made himself.  This blame the victim stuff
is ridiculous.  You are saying you believe him when
he says that we made him kill all those innocent
people?   
 
Greg
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Owen Byrne [mailto:owen at permafrost.net] 
Sent: Sun 5/2/2004 6:46 AM 
To: Gregory Alan Bolcer; fork at xent.com 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [FoRK] Nerve



	Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote:
	
	>Don't be a bonehead.  The politics
	>is: "We can beat these guys, and we're proving our resolve," said one military officer. "But unless the political side keeps up, we'll have to do it again after July 1 and maybe in September and again next year and again and again."
	>
	>You don't follow current events or you just read propaganda sites?  I read that
	>article when it first came across and the next one and the next one and the
	>next one after that, thus the comment your numbers are a little
	>suspect.   The point is, they are being mistated to prevent the wire
	>news services from assuming all registered body counts are insurgents,
	>so the key hospital administrator quoted is exaggerating the women and
	>children.  
	>
	Propaganda sites? Unfortunately American sites are ubiquitous on the Net
	- I try to ignore them but its difficult.
	Or perhaps you mean those sites that have been telling everyone the US
	has been torturing prisoners in Iraq for months?
	The statement about "after July 1, ..." is almost as offensive as the
	original one. The fact is you could demolish  Tehran
	or Moscow or Toronto or London - the question is when is the rest of the
	world going to stop it.
	You have made bin Laden a hero. Not just to Arabs.
	Owen
	
	>
	>Greg
	>
	>       -----Original Message-----
	>       From: Owen Byrne [mailto:owen at permafrost.net]
	>       Sent: Sat 5/1/2004 7:07 PM
	>       To: Gregory Alan Bolcer
	>       Cc: fork at xent.com
	>       Subject: Re: [FoRK] Nerve
	>      
	>      
	>
	>       Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote:
	>      
	>       >They can have 100% control of fallujah in under 48 hours.   It's
	>       >politics that's holding it back.   If you say a thousand or so
	>       >means less than 60--the majorit of which have been
	>       >used as collaborators and human shields, then you're gonna run outta numbers.
	>       >
	>       >Greg
	>       >
	>       >
	>      
	>       Human shields? Were they the people driving the ambulances?
	>      
	>       > An assessment by five international non-governmental organisations on
	>       > Friday said 470 people had been killed in Falluja. Of 1,200 injured,
	>       > it said 243 were women and 200 children. The groups said their
	>       > estimate may be conservative.
	>       >
	>       > "Dead bodies are lying in the streets. Ambulances are being shot at by
	>       > snipers. Medical aid and supplies have been stopped by U.S. occupation
	>       > forces," a statement from the NGOs said.
	>       >
	>       >
	>       http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=491768&section=news
	>      
	>       Those numbers are from April 12, and the snipers being referenced are US
	>       snipers. It's politics? If "politics" means admitting that this is a war
	>       of conquest and nothing less then yes - its politics.
	>      
	>       Owen
	>      
	>      
	>       >       -----Original Message-----
	>       >       From: fork-bounces at xent.com on behalf of Owen Byrne
	>       >       Sent: Fri 4/30/2004 8:08 PM
	>       >       To: fork at xent.com
	>       >       Cc:
	>       >       Subject: [FoRK] Nerve
	>       >     
	>       >     
	>       >
	>       >       How else can I describe it. What F*cking nerve.
	>       >     
	>       >       > Abizaid said a central figure in the insurgency in Fallujah is
	>       >       > Jordanian extremist Abu Musab Zarqawi who has been linked with al-Qaida.
	>       >       > "I can't tell you that he's there now, but I can tell you that he has
	>       >       > personally been responsible for the killing of thousands of innocent
	>       >       > Iraqi citizens," Abizaid said
	>       >     
	>       >       As in "We dropped bombs on every neighbourhood in Fallujah trying to
	>       >       kill this guy. A thousand or so Iraqis died. "Collateral Damage"
	>       >       Owen
	>       >     
	>       >       >
	>       >       > U.S. commander: Send 'more Muslim troops'
	>       >       >
	>       >       > - - - - - - - - - - - -
	>       >       > *By ROBERT BURNS*
	>       >       >
	>       >       > <http://salon.com/news/wire/2004/04/30/troops/print.html>
	>       >       > <http://salon.com/news/wire/2004/04/30/troops/email.html>
	>       >       >
	>       >       > April 30, 2004 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- The top U.S. military commander in
	>       >       > the Persian Gulf area said Friday he needs no more American troops in
	>       >       > Iraq, but he pointedly urged Muslim nations to send forces.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > Gen. John Abizaid, chief of the U.S. Central Command, also disclosed
	>       >       > that about a dozen Iraqi security battalions, which failed to perform
	>       >       > in recent weeks of anti-occupation violence in central and
	>       >       > south-central Iraq, are being reorganized and retrained. As a result,
	>       >       > he said, those units will not be ready for any major challenges until
	>       >       > at least November, a delay of two months from previous schedules.
	>       >       >
	>       >       >
	>       >       > In a video teleconference with reporters at the Pentagon, Abizaid said
	>       >       > from his Persian Gulf headquarters that despite a rising death toll
	>       >       > and other recent setbacks he remains confident that the U.S.-led
	>       >       > military coalition in Iraq will bring stability.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > He urged the American public to be patient and to understand that
	>       >       > results will come slowly.
	>       >       >
	>       >       >
	>       >       >    
	>       >       >
	>       >       > <http://nx1.salon.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.salonmagazine.com/news/content/large.html/1846059002/Right1/amex_IO513_text/amex_text.html/31386465613936333366633031393730>
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	>       >       >
	>       >       >
	>       >       >    
	>       >       >
	>       >       > "We are not in any military danger of losing control of the
	>       >       > situation," he said.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > Asked about the debate in the United States over whether more American
	>       >       > troops are needed in Iraq, Abizaid said if the security situation
	>       >       > should deteriorate further he would not hesitate to ask for more. For
	>       >       > now, he said, he is satisfied that the 138,000 troops he has are enough.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > "I do favor the inclusion of more international troops, especially
	>       >       > more Muslim troops," he said. "For example, Morocco, Pakistan, Tunisia
	>       >       > – they all have very capable and very professional forces that could
	>       >       > be added to the stability equation" once Iraq regains its political
	>       >       > sovereignty. The target date for the partial turnover of power to an
	>       >       > interim Iraqi government is June 30.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > The key to progress in Iraq, he said, is getting more Iraqis to defend
	>       >       > their country.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > "I think Iraqis will second me on this: This needs to be less of an
	>       >       > American occupation and more of an international military activity
	>       >       > that includes Iraqis, international forces and Americans," he said.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > The Bush administration has been unable so far to persuade more
	>       >       > countries to send troops to Iraq, and the surging violence and
	>       >       > mounting death toll have further complicated the matter. Spain, the
	>       >       > Dominican Republic and Honduras are pulling their troops out.
	>       >       > Bulgarian President Georgi Parvanov said this week that his country's
	>       >       > contingent, which is operating in the southern Iraqi city of Karbala,
	>       >       > has found itself in "a real war it was not prepared for."
	>       >       >
	>       >       > Abizaid cautioned against expecting quick results from a new
	>       >       > arrangement with Iraqis to quell violence in the besieged city of
	>       >       > Fallujah, and a major battle for Fallujah may not be avoidable.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > He described the a "step-by-step effort" to train an Iraqi force for
	>       >       > Fallujah, which others said is being called the Fallujah Brigade,
	>       >       > under leadership of former senior officers of deposed President Saddam
	>       >       > Hussein's army.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > The outcome will depend on the actions of the insurgents inside the
	>       >       > city, he said.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > "It may be necessary to have a strong fight in there," he said, if the
	>       >       > insurgents don't cooperate, he said.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > Problems have been festering for months in Fallujah and escalated
	>       >       > after the March 31 killing and mutilation of four American private
	>       >       > contractors. Abizaid saw evidence of it when he visited there in
	>       >       > mid-February and his party came under attack by rocket-propelled
	>       >       > grenades and small arms fire.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > He said Friday that eventually the fate of Fallujah will rest with the
	>       >       > Iraqis.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > "While it is difficult for them to stand up to some of the challenges
	>       >       > and the intimidation of former regime elements, it is, nevertheless,
	>       >       > important for all of us to understand that ultimately the battle for
	>       >       > Iraq will be won by Iraqis," he said.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > Abizaid said a central figure in the insurgency in Fallujah is
	>       >       > Jordanian extremist Abu Musab Zarqawi who has been linked with al-Qaida.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > "I can't tell you that he's there now, but I can tell you that he has
	>       >       > personally been responsible for the killing of thousands of innocent
	>       >       > Iraqi citizens," Abizaid said.
	>       >       >
	>       >       > Separately, his operations chief, Maj. Gen. John Sattler said, told
	>       >       > reporters that the Marines in Iraq recently received 14 extra battle
	>       >       > tanks and the Army's 1st Infantry Division has received 23 of the 28
	>       >       > extra tanks it requested.
	>       >       >
	>       >     
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