From rschuman Mon Jul 11 06:27:11 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: SGI Faces Bankruptcy Message-ID: Curse of Beluzzo. >>> Joe Barrera 7/9/2005 1:23:26 PM >>> I know! Maybe HP can buy them! - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: SGI Faces Bankruptcy Date: 9 Jul 2005 16:26:04 -0000 From: brian-slashdotnews@hyperreal.org To: slashdotnews@hyperreal.org Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/09/1326249 Posted by: CowboyNeal, on 2005-07-09 13:35:00 from the dire-straits dept. [1]Richard Finney writes "[2] The stock chart tells the story: One time Silicon Valley high-flyer and contender for the Unix crown, SGI stock price dropped 20% on Friday ... deep into penny stock territory ... [3]after releasing fiscal fourth quarter results. The Mountain View, California maker of high end computers is '[4] exploring financing alternatives with its lender and other sources.' With mounting losses and investors giving ol' Silicon Graphics the thumbs down, things aren't looking good." References 1. mailto:FirstNameDotLastName@mail.google.com 2. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SGI&t=my&l=off&z=m&q=l&c= 3. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050707/sfth084.html?.v=14 4. http://biz.yahoo.com/cbsmb/050707/10dcf0f4eb3640a3b6aec3b87ad7fe8c.html?.v=1 . -- Sweet dreams and flying machines In pieces on the ground _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From rschuman Mon Jul 11 06:28:58 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Greg Bolcer's Latest Project Message-ID: Pretty soon we'll be talking about legacies. >>> Adam L Beberg 7/9/2005 6:34:01 AM >>> Regina Schuman wrote on 7/8/2005 1:18 PM: > Tobin Rey Bolcer > 8 pounds 14 ounces > 20-3/4" > 36.4cm head > 34cm chest. > 7/8/05 8:43am Sorry, only understood that last part. They cost way more then 8 pounds these days, and what the heck is an ounce? Nice to see the FoRK crowd is still fork()'ing ;) -- Adam L. Beberg http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From mattj Mon Jul 11 11:01:56 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] NASA world wind, Google Earth applications In-Reply-To: <42D181F4.2090306@cs.uu.nl> References: <20050710190003.7B47615DC5C8@xent.com> <42D181F4.2090306@cs.uu.nl> Message-ID: <1121104904.42d2b408ad67d@66.51.123.254> > Just being curious: have you folks already been playing around with > Google Earth? I love it. It's the most fun I've had with software in a decade. You can instantly show layers of placemarks for restaurants, parks, etc., etc. You can add your own placemarks, your own JPEG overlays (w/ transparency and altitude), your own polygons (2D or 3D), and animate through your own tours. There's a great BBS (bbs.keyhole.com) where users share placemark and overlay files. Since the user base is always combing the images for cool things (a "Duck Boat", an open drawbridge, a plane flying over the ocean), there's always more to see. It's also great entertainment for kids. You can set up a bunch of placemarks, and click through them on demand. Let's see the airplane! The rocket! The dam! In practical terms, I've used it for house hunting, and used it for planning trips. I haven't put much thought into other practical uses yet, but it's so fun (and cheap) that it doesn't matter. One negative, if you can call it that, is that the Google Earth database, like the Google web index, will change on you at any time. So that great picture of a plane over the ocean may be gone when you come back next month. If Google doesn't mind throwing a petabyte or two to the project, they could archive database editions for us. This would have immense benefits over time. Imagine a decade from now being able to look at a city, or a lake, or a glacier, or an ice shelf, at any angle/resolution/altitude, and play back a time-lapse movie of its changes. If Google does that, and throws it in for free, they deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From fork Mon Jul 11 12:41:08 2005 From: fork (Damien Morton) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube Message-ID: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> These guys get an Illuminati rating of abusive/weird http://www.timecube.com/ An open mind is a slop bucket, "THINK CUBIC". The Time Cube only offends the educated stupid - but there are so damn many of them. Academia teaches the evil of singularity to human cubics - born of opposites. I am flabbergasted that the "big brother" hired pedants can brainwash and indoctrinate the powerful antipode human mind to ignore the simple math of 4 simultaneous 24 hour days within a single rotation of Earth, to worship one and trash three. Magnificient evil job by teachers. From joe Mon Jul 11 12:55:21 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube In-Reply-To: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> References: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> Message-ID: <42D2CE94.7010800@barrera.org> Damien Morton wrote: > These guys get an Illuminati rating of abusive/weird > http://www.timecube.com/ Ah, that's old news. What bothers me is that my son (13yo) has independently come up with the notion of a "time pie" which, like, don't ask. - Joe From luis.villa Mon Jul 11 12:56:18 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube In-Reply-To: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> References: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c44050711125538727b47@mail.gmail.com> And the survey says 'ollllllllllllllld.' http://web.archive.org/web/19980118042021/http://www.timecube.com/ Some pretty funny notes taken when Gene was invited to speak at MIT in 2002: http://www.sunhelp.org/pipermail/geeks/2002-February/012432.html Luis On 7/11/05, Damien Morton wrote: > These guys get an Illuminati rating of abusive/weird > > http://www.timecube.com/ > > An open mind is a slop bucket, > "THINK CUBIC". > The Time Cube only offends > the educated stupid - but there > are so damn many of them. > Academia teaches the evil of > singularity to human cubics - > born of opposites. > I am flabbergasted that the > "big brother" hired pedants > can brainwash and indoctrinate > the powerful antipode human > mind to ignore the simple math > of 4 simultaneous 24 hour days within a single rotation of Earth, > to worship one and trash three. > Magnificient evil job by teachers. > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Mon Jul 11 12:56:58 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube In-Reply-To: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> References: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> Message-ID: <42D2CEFC.50000@barrera.org> In related news, have you guys heard my theory about how the dark side of the moon is the side facing us? Because of all those maria, you know, which are kind of dark. And which the other side doesn't have so many of. - Joe From joe Mon Jul 11 13:24:19 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shrek foot? Message-ID: <42D2D560.5090706@barrera.org> Our office is right next door to the Redwood City PDI/Dreamworks studio, and on the grass between our buildings, there is a tarp and about six people shaping clay (?) into what looks like a huge leg with a foot with three toes sticking up. Does shrek have three toes? - Joe From joe Mon Jul 11 16:28:46 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're not saying anything" Message-ID: <42D30093.3020609@barrera.org> So surreal. Something straight out of Lem, or Heller. - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're not saying anything" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:12:31 -0400 From: Doug Henwood Reply-To: lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org To: lbo-talk Q Does the President stand by his pledge to fire anyone involved in the leak of a name of a CIA operative? MR. McCLELLAN: Terry, I appreciate your question. I think your question is being asked relating to some reports that are in reference to an ongoing criminal investigation. The criminal investigation that you reference is something that continues at this point. And as I've previously stated, while that investigation is ongoing, the White House is not going to comment on it. The President directed the White House to cooperate fully with the investigation, and as part of cooperating fully with the investigation, we made a decision that we weren't going to comment on it while it is ongoing. Q Excuse me, but I wasn't actually talking about any investigation. But in June of 2004, the President said that he would fire anybody who was involved in this leak, to press of information. And I just want to know, is that still his position? MR. McCLELLAN: Yes, but this question is coming up in the context of this ongoing investigation, and that's why I said that our policy continues to be that we're not going to get into commenting on an ongoing criminal investigation from this podium. The prosecutors overseeing the investigation had expressed a preference to us that one way to help the investigation is not to be commenting on it from this podium. And so that's why we are not going to get into commenting on it while it is an ongoing investigation, or questions related to it. Q Scott, if I could -- if I could point out, contradictory to that statement, on September 29th, 2003, while the investigation was ongoing, you clearly commented on it. You were the first one who said, if anybody from the White House was involved, they would be fired. And then on June 10th of 2004, at Sea Island Plantation, in the midst of this investigation is when the President made his comment that, yes, he would fire anybody from the White House who was involved. So why have you commented on this during the process of the investigation in the past, but now you've suddenly drawn a curtain around it under the statement of, "We're not going to comment on an ongoing investigation"? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, John, I appreciate the question. I know you want to get to the bottom of this. No one wants to get to the bottom of it more than the President of the United States. And I think the way to be most helpful is to not get into commenting on it while it is an ongoing investigation. That's something that the people overseeing the investigation have expressed a preference that we follow. And that's why we're continuing to follow that approach and that policy. Now, I remember very well what was previously said. And at some point, I will be glad to talk about it, but not until after the investigation is complete. Q So could I just ask, when did you change your mind to say that it was okay to comment during the course of an investigation before, but now it's not? MR. McCLELLAN: Well, I think maybe you missed what I was saying in reference to Terry's question at the beginning. There came a point when the investigation got underway when those overseeing the investigation asked that it would be their -- or said that it would be their preference that we not get into discussing it while it is ongoing. I think that's the way to be most helpful to help them advance the investigation and get to the bottom of it. Q Scott, can I ask you this; did Karl Rove commit a crime? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, David, this is a question relating to an ongoing investigation, and you have my response related to the investigation. And I don't think you should read anything into it other than we're going to continue not to comment on it while it's ongoing. Q Do you stand by your statement from the fall of 2003 when you were asked specifically about Karl and Elliott Abrams and Scooter Libby, and you said, "I've gone to each of those gentlemen, and they have told me they are not involved in this" -- do you stand by that statement? MR. McCLELLAN: And if you will recall, I said that as part of helping the investigators move forward on the investigation we're not going to get into commenting on it. That was something I stated back near that time, as well. Q Scott, I mean, just -- I mean, this is ridiculous. The notion that you're going to stand before us after having commented with that level of detail and tell people watching this that somehow you decided not to talk. You've got a public record out there. Do you stand by your remarks from that podium, or not? MR. McCLELLAN: And again, David, I'm well aware, like you, of what was previously said, and I will be glad to talk about it at the appropriate time. The appropriate time is when the investigation -- Q Why are you choosing when it's appropriate and when it's inappropriate? MR. McCLELLAN: If you'll let me finish -- Q No, you're not finishing -- you're not saying anything. You stood at that podium and said that Karl Rove was not involved. And now we find out that he spoke out about Joseph Wilson's wife. So don't you owe the American public a fuller explanation? Was he involved, or was he not? Because, contrary to what you told the American people, he did, indeed, talk about his wife, didn't he? MR. McCLELLAN: David, there will be a time to talk about this, but now is not the time to talk about it. Q Do you think people will accept that, what you're saying today? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, I've responded to the question. Go ahead, Terry. Q Well, you're in a bad spot here, Scott, because after the investigation began, after the criminal investigation was underway, you said -- October 10th, 2003, "I spoke with those individuals, Rove, Abrams and Libby, as I pointed out, those individuals assured me they were not involved in this." From that podium. That's after the criminal investigation began. Now that Rove has essentially been caught red-handed peddling this information, all of a sudden you have respect for the sanctity of the criminal investigation? MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's not a correct characterization Terry, and I think you are well aware of that. We know each other very well, and it was after that period that the investigators had requested that we not get into commenting on an ongoing criminal investigation. And we want to be helpful so that they can get to the bottom of this, because no one wants to get to the bottom of it more than the President of the United States. I am well aware of what was said previously. I remember well what was said previously. And at some point, I look forward to talking about it. But until the investigation is complete, I'm just not going to do that. Q Do you recall when you were asked -- Q Wait, wait -- so you're now saying that after you cleared Rove and the others from that podium, then the prosecutors asked you not to speak anymore, and since then, you haven't? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, you're continuing to ask questions relating to an ongoing criminal investigation, and I'm just not going to respond any further. Q When did they ask you to stop commenting on it, Scott? Can you peg down a date? MR. McCLELLAN: Back at that time period. Q Well, then the President commented on it nine months later. So was he not following the White House plan? MR. McCLELLAN: John, I appreciate your questions. You can keep asking them, but you have my response. Go ahead, Dave. Q We are going to keep asking them. When did the President learn that Karl Rove had had a conversation with the President -- with a news reporter about the involvement of Joseph Wilson's wife and the decision to send -- MR. McCLELLAN: I've responded to the questions. Q When did the President learn that Karl Rove had -- MR. McCLELLAN: I've responded to the questions, Dick. Go ahead. Q After the investigation is completed, will you then be consistent with your word and the President's word that anybody who was involved would be let go? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, after the investigation is complete, I will be glad to talk about it at that point. Q And a follow-up. Can you walk us through why, given the fact that Rove's lawyer has spoken publicly about this, it is inconsistent with the investigation, that it compromises the investigation to talk about the involvement of Karl Rove, the Deputy Chief of Staff? MR. McCLELLAN: Well, those overseeing the investigation expressed a preference to us that we not get into commenting on the investigation while it's ongoing. And that was what they requested of the White House. And so I think in order to be helpful to that investigation, we are following their direction. Q Scott, there's a difference between commenting on an investigation and taking an action -- MR. McCLELLAN: Go ahead, Goyal. Q Can I finish, please? MR. McCLELLAN: You can come -- I'll come back to you in a minute. Go ahead, Goyal. ___________________________________ http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk -- Sweet dreams and flying machines In pieces on the ground From deafbox Mon Jul 11 18:20:00 2005 From: deafbox (Russell Turpin) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're no In-Reply-To: <42D30093.3020609@barrera.org> Message-ID: Joe Barrera: >So surreal. Something straight out of Lem, or Heller. Or 1973. From joe Mon Jul 11 18:35:36 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're no In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D31E4D.6000403@barrera.org> Russell Turpin wrote: > Joe Barrera: > >> So surreal. Something straight out of Lem, or Heller. > > Or 1973. "And it feels like it's 1974.." But it really does, doesn't it? "And as W left the Whitehouse You could hear people say, 'They'll never rehabilitate that mother, no way...'" From joe Mon Jul 11 19:03:37 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises Message-ID: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? -------- Original Message -------- From lgonze Mon Jul 11 20:34:28 2005 From: lgonze (Lucas Gonze) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> Joe Barrera wrote: > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? > And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? Terrorism. From joe Mon Jul 11 21:09:12 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> Message-ID: <42D3424A.3030203@barrera.org> Lucas Gonze wrote: > Joe Barrera wrote: > > > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? And a > > *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > > Terrorism. Impotent gangrenous oozing seeping dick suckage. So gangrenous it comes off in your mouth, not in your hand. - Joe From lgonze Mon Jul 11 22:18:11 2005 From: lgonze (Lucas Gonze) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D3424A.3030203@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> <42D3424A.3030203@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D3528F.90704@panix.com> Joe Barrera wrote: > Lucas Gonze wrote: > >> Joe Barrera wrote: >> >> > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? And a >> > *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? >> >> Terrorism. > > > Impotent gangrenous oozing seeping dick suckage. > > So gangrenous it comes off in your mouth, not in your hand. I don't understand, are you a Democrat? Is that why you are for the terrorists? p.s. my money is on Rove to try to bluster his way through, because (1) the administration's political strategy is to always take the offensive and (2) they've purged anyone willing to defer to reality. C.F. the Tom Delay train and WMDs. From eugen Tue Jul 12 01:52:53 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050712085248.GK25947@leitl.org> On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 07:03:08PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? > And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > > -------- Original Message -------- > We have a feeling that Germany has been transformed into a great house of God, including all classes, professions and creeds, where the Fuhrer as our mediator stood before the throne of the Almighty. -Joseph Goebbels, in a broadcast, 19 April 1936 -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From fork Tue Jul 12 10:52:08 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: I'm sure that's well within STDERROR. (well, I hope) -Ian. On 11-Jul-05, at 7:03 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? > And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > From joe Tue Jul 12 15:12:57 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] quote of the week Message-ID: <42D4404D.3070600@barrera.org> "I may be wrong, but I don't even think an essay on the SS would contain that many [occurrences of the word] 'Nazi' in so compact a textual space." - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [lbo-talk] blow the Christian right wide open! Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:18:08 -0400 From: Dwayne Monroe Reply-To: lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org To: lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org Doug posted: ========== Ah. I browsed to this URL and was about to skim the text when a thought took hold: don't read, just search for the word, "Nazi" and see what happens. After noting 54 occurrences (and counting!) I gave up. I may be wrong, but I don't even think an essay on the SS would contain that many "Nazis" in so compact a textual space. This not only adheres to Godwin's Law (see def. below if you're asking, whaaaa?) but adheres so closely there's not even an atom's width of space between Madsen's extravaganza (or perhaps I should say Nazi-palooza) and Godwin's adage. [...] From kelley Tue Jul 12 15:31:36 2005 From: kelley (kelley@inkworkswell.com) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050712183034.040a1110@pop.inkworkswell.com> At 10:03 PM 7/11/2005, Joe Barrera wrote: >Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? >And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > >-------- Original Message -------- > Don't forget the "rally-round-the-prez" effect. This happens whenever the president's in trouble. Nixon got bounces throughout the time preceding his resignation, when he was under attack in the press. IF you want to feel better, look at the long-term approval rating for Nixon over time. I'd look it up on the 'net, but I'm lazy. LBO will have it in the archives somehwere, no doubt. :) kelley When you need to communicate, Ink Works! http://www.inkworkswell.com +1 (727) 942-9255 From joe Tue Jul 12 15:33:21 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? Message-ID: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Well, first, I'll answer that: benchmarks. But let me continue... I have about 300 GB of mp3s (ripped from my own CDs, or purchased from emusic while they offered all-you-can-eat for a fixed amount per month). Over time, several of these files have become corrupted -- containing segments of other mp3 files, or just having trashed mp3 metadata. (This is with NTFS on Windows.) Now, at the very least, I shouldn't have to discover this corruption by playing the files -- it should be evident at the very latest when I do a chkdsk (= fsck on Windows) and/or when I open the file. But it isn't. So I end up having to write scripts to do md5sums on my mp3 files to notice changes (corruption) so I can restore from backup. This is so fuckin lame it makes my head spin backwards and tilted at at a 97 degree angle. - Joe P.S. Why isn't 97 degrees (for Neptune, duh) normalized to 83 degrees? -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From joe Tue Jul 12 15:35:36 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: HP Invents A New Way To Print Message-ID: <42D4459C.507@barrera.org> Isn't this the fuckin obvious way to do it? I thought HP incorporated the print head in the cartridge only to make money selling cartridges. Is this a defensive move against ever-cheaper color laser printers? - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: HP Invents A New Way To Print Date: 12 Jul 2005 22:26:07 -0000 From: brian-slashdotnews@hyperreal.org To: slashdotnews@hyperreal.org Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/12/1746200 Posted by: Zonk, on 2005-07-12 19:40:00 from the i-thought-we-were-a-paperless-society dept. [1]Sushant Bhatia writes "Forbes is reporting that HP is introducing new technology in its inkjet printers that should help the company and consumers save time and money. If successful, the strategy may alter the economics of the printer market. The new inkjet platform, which will initially be geared toward the high end of the market, [2]will incorporate the print head in the printer itself rather than in the ink cartridge. It means cheaper prints for consumers (about 24 cents per photo print) and faster output. HP says it has more than halved the time it takes to print a 4-inch-by-6-inch photo, to 14 seconds. [3]The press release from HP has details on the new technology." References 1. http://bhatia.net/ 2. http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/07/12/hewlett-packard-printer-strategy-cx_de_0712hp.html 3. http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050711a.html -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From fork Tue Jul 12 15:36:03 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: So how are you backing up 300GB of NTFS data? -Ian. On 12-Jul-05, at 3:32 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > Well, first, I'll answer that: benchmarks. But let me continue... > > I have about 300 GB of mp3s (ripped from my own CDs, or purchased > from emusic > while they offered all-you-can-eat for a fixed amount per month). > Over time, several > of these files have become corrupted -- containing segments of > other mp3 files, or just > having trashed mp3 metadata. (This is with NTFS on Windows.) Now, > at the very > least, I shouldn't have to discover this corruption by playing the > files -- it should be > evident at the very latest when I do a chkdsk (= fsck on Windows) > and/or when > I open the file. But it isn't. So I end up having to write scripts > to do md5sums on > my mp3 files to notice changes (corruption) so I can restore from > backup. This is > so fuckin lame it makes my head spin backwards and tilted at at a > 97 degree angle. > > - Joe > > P.S. Why isn't 97 degrees (for Neptune, duh) normalized to 83 degrees? > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell > I think we've been forced to our knees > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > From luis.villa Tue Jul 12 15:36:37 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) Luis On 7/12/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > Well, first, I'll answer that: benchmarks. But let me continue... > > I have about 300 GB of mp3s (ripped from my own CDs, or purchased from > emusic > while they offered all-you-can-eat for a fixed amount per month). Over > time, several > of these files have become corrupted -- containing segments of other mp3 > files, or just > having trashed mp3 metadata. (This is with NTFS on Windows.) Now, at the > very > least, I shouldn't have to discover this corruption by playing the files > -- it should be > evident at the very latest when I do a chkdsk (= fsck on Windows) and/or > when > I open the file. But it isn't. So I end up having to write scripts to do > md5sums on > my mp3 files to notice changes (corruption) so I can restore from > backup. This is > so fuckin lame it makes my head spin backwards and tilted at at a 97 > degree angle. > > - Joe > > P.S. Why isn't 97 degrees (for Neptune, duh) normalized to 83 degrees? > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell > I think we've been forced to our knees > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Tue Jul 12 15:39:29 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D44685.5040700@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > So how are you backing up 300GB of NTFS data? Just doing a copy to another 300GB disk. Can't be arsed to go the tape route. - Joe From joe Tue Jul 12 15:44:31 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> Luis Villa wrote: > Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't suck as bad as it does. - Joe From jm Tue Jul 12 15:59:49 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Joe Barrera writes: > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) > > Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? > > NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't > suck as bad as it does. but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional backups in the case I heard of. ouch. Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, but in the ext* case the data was always still there. - --j. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= =jW2i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jbone Tue Jul 12 16:08:50 2005 From: jbone (Jeff Bone) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! Message-ID: As Newsweek revealed Monday, Karl Rove was the source of the Plame leak. The essence of personal integrity is in doing what you say you will do. To maintain any shred, any pretense of credibility, Bush *must* now do what he promised last year and fire those responsible for the leak, i.e. Rove. Furthermore, Nixon-ian "Dirty Tricks" cannot be considered acceptable in today's GOP, or any political party. Please join me in encouraging Bush to keep his word and clean up his administration: http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove/ jb From joe Tue Jul 12 16:19:36 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Aw crap. OK. The problem is that I have one tower that I use as a file server, with everything else as laptops (albeit with a couple firewire/usb2 disks). And it's using several NTFS striped disks (60 or 80 GB each) to build ~300 GB virtual disks. So I'm going to have to do a lot of shuffling to get this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it does). If it doesn't, then this is going to have to wait until I have a couple spare 300 GB disks. How irritating. BTW I don't think I've ever pushed any of my filesystems past 95% capacity, so I don't know if the bug you described would apply. - Joe Justin Mason wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Joe Barrera writes: > > >>Luis Villa wrote: >> >> >> >>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) >>> >>> >>Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? >> >>NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't >>suck as bad as it does. >> >> > >but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS >v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode >index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the >filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after >they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on >inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional >backups in the case I heard of. ouch. > >Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) > >In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. >Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, >but in the ext* case the data was always still there. > >- --j. >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Exmh CVS > >iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 >fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= >=jW2i >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From fork Tue Jul 12 16:32:58 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> They won't do it. To fire Rove would be to excommunicate the principal architect of their core strategy (let's not believe for a second that this would at all impinge on his ability to influence decision making in the GOP, though) and, more to the point, would reveal that there is a leak in the dam. If they concede one leak then they will need to begin acknowledging all the other leaks that are popping up. They would also open the floor to unabashed criticism of the gobbermint, which is just plain unamerican. What're you gonna do then, eh?? Fire Rumsfeld for war crimes and manipulation of intelligence data? Fire Cheney for sweetheart deals to outsource the army to his former co-workers? Fire Condoleeza Rice for being EVIL? NO.. that's not the answer. The only way to get fired from this administration is to veer too dangerously close to reality, as in the case of Powell. That shit just will not do. So the strategy is clear: Deny, Deny, Deny. The seething Left-Wing (read: Mainstream) Press thinks they have seized upon a slam dunk case here but there is plenty of wriggle room. And their dogged pursuit of this morsel is just further proof of their Liberal anti- Christian bias. We are at WAR, people! Where's your humanity?! You can't encourage these people, George. Pretty soon they'll be clamoring for a democracy. -Ian. On 12-Jul-05, at 4:08 PM, Jeff Bone wrote: > > As Newsweek revealed Monday, Karl Rove was the source of the Plame > leak. > > The essence of personal integrity is in doing what you say you will > do. To maintain any shred, any pretense of credibility, Bush > *must* now do what he promised last year and fire those responsible > for the leak, i.e. Rove. Furthermore, Nixon-ian "Dirty Tricks" > cannot be considered acceptable in today's GOP, or any political > party. > > Please join me in encouraging Bush to keep his word and clean up > his administration: > > http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove/ From jm Tue Jul 12 16:34:55 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050712233259.ABFB02F058F@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 ext3 supports software-RAID striping, no problem. (I'm using it myself for a similar application, although not quite on that scale ;) FYI, the exact version of the buggy NTFS: 'it was the old ntfs ver 4 used by NT (service pack 3 I think). Since the switch to w2k and ntfs v5 it hasn't happened again.' - --j. Joe Barrera writes: > Aw crap. OK. The problem is that I have one tower that I use as a file > server, > with everything else as laptops (albeit with a couple firewire/usb2 disks). > And it's using several NTFS striped disks (60 or 80 GB each) to build > ~300 GB virtual disks. So I'm going to have to do a lot of shuffling to get > this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it does). > If it doesn't, then this is going to have to wait until I have a couple > spare 300 GB disks. How irritating. > > BTW I don't think I've ever pushed any of my filesystems past 95% > capacity, so I don't know if the bug you described would apply. > > - Joe > > Justin Mason wrote: > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > > > >Joe Barrera writes: > > > > > >>Luis Villa wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) > >>> > >>> > >>Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? > >> > >>NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't > >>suck as bad as it does. > >> > >> > > > >but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS > >v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode > >index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the > >filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after > >they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on > >inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional > >backups in the case I heard of. ouch. > > > >Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) > > > >In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. > >Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, > >but in the ext* case the data was always still there. > > > >- --j. > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) > >Comment: Exmh CVS > > > >iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 > >fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0>=jW2i > >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1FMrMJF5cimLx9ARAjm6AJ0VD2NyPt7hvxOqXAIA+YaAhzIdrwCgrArT f98L6JCviUnmIORovMpWXlk= =91wC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joe Tue Jul 12 16:39:57 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D454B2.1070504@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > What're you gonna do then, eh?? Fire Rumsfeld for war crimes and > manipulation of intelligence data? Fire Cheney for sweetheart deals > to outsource the army to his former co-workers? Fire Condoleeza Rice > for being EVIL? NO.. that's not the answer. Maybe not. But it would feel pretty god damn good. And I'm all for feeling pretty god damn good. - Joe P.S. Never knew how many more bones there were out there... From fork Tue Jul 12 16:40:01 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) Message-ID: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> Just as NASA's head nerdaucrat announced everything was fixed, a window fell out of the cockpit and damaged the engine pod, inspiring confidence for all! -Ian. ---- http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts114/050712omspod/ Cockpit window falls from Discovery, hits engine pod BY WILLIAM HARWOOD STORY WRITTEN FOR CBS NEWS "SPACE PLACE" & USED WITH PERMISSION Posted: July 12, 2005 NASA Administrator Michael Griffin, saying the space agency has done everything humanly possible to fix the problems that led to the Columbia disaster, told reporters today the shuttle Discovery is "go" for launch Wednesday, weather permitting, on an "utterly crucial" mission. "I just came from a very interesting mission management team meeting," Griffin said after the management poll to clear Discovery for flight. "The net result of all that is we're go for launch tomorrow, pending weather. We're not really working any significant issues, just working through normal closeouts and hoping the weather gods are kind for tomorrow." Late today, after Griffin's remarks, engineers were called to launch pad 39B to troubleshoot damage to protective heat shield tiles on Discovery's left-side orbital maneuvering system rocket pod. A protective plastic cockpit window cover somehow fell off and struck a tile-covered panel. The so-called carrier panel protects attachment fittings that hold the rocket pod to the shuttle's fuselage. A replacement carrier panel was taken to the launch pad for installation, a job engineers said typically takes about an hour. As of this writing, the work was not expected to impact Discovery's launching Wednesday. NASA's mission management team reviewed a handful of other open issues today, including concern about excessive heating on the strut fittings that hold Discovery's nose to its external fuel tank and concern about suspect components in one of the ship's electronic "black boxes." Griffin said all the open issues were resolved to the management team's satisfaction and Discovery's launch on the 114th shuttle mission, the first since Columbia's destruction two-and-a-half years go, remained on target for 3:50:53 p.m. Wednesday. The launch window closes at 3:55:53 p.m. On board will be commander Eileen Collins, pilot James Kelly, flight engineer Stephen Robinson, Andrew Thomas, Wendy Lawrence, Charles Camarda and Japanese astronaut Soichi Noguchi. The goal of the mission is to deliver critical supplies to the international space station; to bring trash and no-longer-needed gear back to Earth; to install a replacement gyroscope in the station's orientation control system; and to test rudimentary shuttle heat-shield repair techniques. "I had a chance earlier this morning to walk down the orbiter and to meet with the crew and the crew families and I can tell you that the crew is just raring to go and they guys who are doing all the closeout work on the orbiter and at the pad are also raring to go," Griffin said. "They're pumped. So we're looking forward to tomorrow, as I'm sure you are, after two and a half years down." Forecasters are calling for a 60 percent chance of good weather Wednesday through Friday. One long-range concern is tropical storm Emily and even though its current track carries it well to the south of Cuba and into the Gulf of Mexico, NASA managers are paying close attention. "Hurricanes are always out there, weather's always out there, we'll just deal with that as it comes," Griffin said. "Our job for tomorrow - and the whole team knows this - is to figure out if it's OK to fly tomorrow." Given the long-range weather prospects - and the fact that Discovery's launch window closes July 31 - it could be argued NASA is under a fair amount of pressure to get the shuttle off the ground as soon as possible. But Griffin said that was not the case. "How do we know we're not getting 'go' fever? Because we're working through the process, we're asking all the questions and answering them appropriately. If we can't answer them, we'll stop. It's that simple." Asked how important Discovery's flight was to NASA, Griffin said: "Obviously, it is utterly crucial for NASA, for the nation, for our space program to fly a safe mission." "We take it seriously. We have done everything that we know to do," he said. "I think we got everything that everybody knows about out on the table. Can there be something that we don't know about that can bite us? Yeah. This is a very tough business. A very tough business. But everything we know about has been covered." He said he viewed Discovery's launch and "every space launch we do" as a "tribute to all those who have gone before, the crews who have died as well as the crews who have lived." "In the course of trying to conduct spaceflight activities, we in the United States have lost three crews," Griffin said. "Russia has lost two. It's a dangerous business, it will be for the foreseeable future. We work every time to make it less dangerous than the time before. ... But this is a matter to be regarded with the perspective of generations, and not weeks and months. So I think every launch is a tribute to all those who have chosen to risk their lives for the benefit of this nation's progress in space exploration." Asked if Discovery's flight would be the safest in shuttle history, Griffin said the spaceplane has not flown enough times to provide the statistical data needed to answer the question. While the problem that doomed Columbia presumably has been fixed, "I don't think you can ever take the viewpoint that with a given launch or a given success that we have vindicated ourselves." "There is no recovery from mistakes we've made, whether it goes back to the Apollo (launch pad) fire, the loss of Challenger or the loss of Columbia," Griffin said. "Going back even further, through a hundred years of aviation, the safety lessons that we who fly have learned and know are written in other people's blood. "The minute we say we're good enough, we start getting bad again and we need not to do that. So we'll be looking at our management culture, our decision-making processes, our engineering processes aggressively as long as we hope to continue to fly safely." He reiterated that NASA had done "everything that we know to do" to make Discovery as safe as possible. "There is nothing that we know of that we have not addressed," he said. "Are there things out there that we don't know about? There may be. We sure hope not." From joe Tue Jul 12 16:40:59 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050712233259.ABFB02F058F@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050712233259.ABFB02F058F@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D454F0.7000302@barrera.org> Justin Mason wrote: > FYI, the exact version of the buggy NTFS: 'it was the old ntfs ver 4 > used by NT (service pack 3 I think). Since the switch to w2k and ntfs > v5 it hasn't happened again.' Well, I've been using W2K since '99, so I don't think that's the problem. - Joe From joe Tue Jul 12 16:46:32 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:17 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> References: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > Just as NASA's head nerdaucrat announced everything was fixed, a > window fell out of the cockpit and damaged the engine pod, inspiring > confidence for all! It's like the fuckin "K Car" of space flight. Designed to reestablish confidence in American Engineering. - Joe P.S. Except that the K Cars probably fared MUCH better... "Certainly the original K-cars, the Dodge Aires and the Plymouth Reliant, were utilitarian and admittedly hardly roadburners. But their smartly integrated front wheel drive layout represented a new breed of American automobile that would soon be ubiquitous because only such cars could compete on merit with the compact imports. And while build quality was not quite Nipponesque, it was still far superior to what Chrysler was capable of just a few years earlier, and provided a firm basis for even further improvement." From jm Tue Jul 12 16:49:56 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Yeah -- based on past actions, it's more likely that Rove would get promoted. to what, I don't know though. - --j. Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) writes: > They won't do it. To fire Rove would be to excommunicate the > principal architect of their core strategy (let's not believe for a > second that this would at all impinge on his ability to influence > decision making in the GOP, though) and, more to the point, would > reveal that there is a leak in the dam. If they concede one leak > then they will need to begin acknowledging all the other leaks that > are popping up. They would also open the floor to unabashed > criticism of the gobbermint, which is just plain unamerican. > > What're you gonna do then, eh?? Fire Rumsfeld for war crimes and > manipulation of intelligence data? Fire Cheney for sweetheart deals > to outsource the army to his former co-workers? Fire Condoleeza Rice > for being EVIL? NO.. that's not the answer. The only way to get > fired from this administration is to veer too dangerously close to > reality, as in the case of Powell. That shit just will not do. > > So the strategy is clear: Deny, Deny, Deny. The seething Left-Wing > (read: Mainstream) Press thinks they have seized upon a slam dunk > case here but there is plenty of wriggle room. And their dogged > pursuit of this morsel is just further proof of their Liberal anti- > Christian bias. We are at WAR, people! Where's your humanity?! > > You can't encourage these people, George. Pretty soon they'll be > clamoring for a democracy. > > -Ian. > > On 12-Jul-05, at 4:08 PM, Jeff Bone wrote: > > > > > As Newsweek revealed Monday, Karl Rove was the source of the Plame > > leak. > > > > The essence of personal integrity is in doing what you say you will > > do. To maintain any shred, any pretense of credibility, Bush > > *must* now do what he promised last year and fire those responsible > > for the leak, i.e. Rove. Furthermore, Nixon-ian "Dirty Tricks" > > cannot be considered acceptable in today's GOP, or any political > > party. > > > > Please join me in encouraging Bush to keep his word and clean up > > his administration: > > > > http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove/ > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1Fa1MJF5cimLx9ARApdGAJ9UjikszCFPPsVBPSxfmOQDohwIEACguN4B H/+ydACXcuPaN++nj1mIUTQ= =iEF2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joe Tue Jul 12 16:54:50 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [Fwd: Terrorism & Security - Memo: US, Brits to withdraw majority of troops by mid-2006] Message-ID: <42D4582E.3070109@barrera.org> Best fuckin' news I've heard for the past... well, for the past five years, really. - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Terrorism & Security - Memo: US, Brits to withdraw majority of troops by mid-2006 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:42:02 -0400 (EDT) From: CSMonitor Daily Update Reply-To: CSMonitor Daily Update To: csmonitor.com subscribers Leaked secret memo says coalition forces will be cut to 66,000. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0711/dailyUpdate.html Or AOL Keyword: CS Monitor To unsubscribe or update your account, go to: http://www.csmonitor.com/modifyemail For further assistance, send a message to: support@csmonitor.com (c) 2005 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved. . -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From ejw Tue Jul 12 17:19:34 2005 From: ejw (Jim Whitehead) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> While I agree there have been inconsistencies in the Administration's handling of this case, it does seem reasonable to me to refuse to comment on an ongoing criminal case. As well, while we know that Rove was one of the sources, we don't know that he was *the* source that outed Ms. Plame. I'm concerned that this could look embarassing for Dems if Rove turns out to be a minor figure. Best to wait for the final story, especially since this will come out much closer to mid-term elections. - Jim From bill Tue Jul 12 17:40:34 2005 From: bill (Bill Humphries) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> References: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> Message-ID: <0AFA25A9-B2F7-4B01-BF5C-F7DC088E74A8@whump.com> On Jul 12, 2005, at 4:46 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > P.S. Except that the K Cars probably fared MUCH better... > > I had a 'K' car back in grad school. The carburetor would die whenever it got humid. -- whump From joe Tue Jul 12 17:51:25 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <0AFA25A9-B2F7-4B01-BF5C-F7DC088E74A8@whump.com> References: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> <0AFA25A9-B2F7-4B01-BF5C-F7DC088E74A8@whump.com> Message-ID: <42D46570.8050100@barrera.org> Bill Humphries wrote: > I had a 'K' car back in grad school. The carburetor would die > whenever it got humid. Carburetors are shite. Better to have a fuel-injected candle. - Joe From luis.villa Tue Jul 12 18:03:30 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c4405071218031de596dc@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) > > Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? I've never personally had data corruption in Linux that couldn't be traced to HW failure (though I know a few people who have, mostly reiser users), and don't know anyone on Windows who *hasn't* had data corruption at some point, though the vast majority of them probably weren't using NTFS. That is purely anecdotal, of course, but... Luis From luis.villa Tue Jul 12 18:09:06 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> References: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <2cb10c44050712180918724a07@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/05, Jim Whitehead wrote: > As well, while we know that Rove was one of the > sources, we don't know that he was *the* source that outed Ms. Plame. > > I'm concerned that this could look embarassing for Dems if Rove turns out to > be a minor figure. Best to wait for the final story, especially since this > will come out much closer to mid-term elections. Yeah. It seems like there is a lot of jumping to conclusions here. I'd like as much as anyone to see Rove nailed to the wall, but what is out there is fairly thin so far. The key, of course, is who told what to Novak. [Embarassing that Novak isn't the one in jail. But of course, you all knew that.] [Tangentially, by the end of all this I may actually loathe Robert Novak more than Rove, which is hard.] Luis From lgonze Tue Jul 12 18:19:17 2005 From: lgonze (Lucas Gonze) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <2cb10c44050712180918724a07@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> <2cb10c44050712180918724a07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Luis Villa wrote: > On 7/12/05, Jim Whitehead wrote: >> As well, while we know that Rove was one of the >> sources, we don't know that he was *the* source that outed Ms. Plame. >> >> I'm concerned that this could look embarassing for Dems if Rove turns out to >> be a minor figure. Best to wait for the final story, especially since this >> will come out much closer to mid-term elections. > > Yeah. It seems like there is a lot of jumping to conclusions here. I'd > like as much as anyone to see Rove nailed to the wall, but what is out > there is fairly thin so far. Rove may not go to jail, but that's beside the point. Luskin admitted that Rove outed Plame to Cooper, and that Rove is a subject of the investigation. There is no doubt whatsoever that Rove outed Plame. From deafbox Tue Jul 12 18:33:49 2005 From: deafbox (Russell Turpin) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> Message-ID: Ian Andrew Bell: >Just as NASA's head nerdaucrat announced everything was fixed, a window >fell out of the cockpit.. Not a window, but a window cover. Very different. From jbone Tue Jul 12 18:55:41 2005 From: jbone (Jeff Bone) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2005, at 6:32 PM, Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > They won't do it. Probably not --- or maybe of course not. The real question, here, is whether this will finally sink into the thick noggins of some of the knee-jerk formerly-moderate Republicans who have inexplicably closed ranks so tightly around this gangster "presidency" over the last few years. Some of those folks, hopefully, maybe, are capable of seeing the irony of an administration that puts things like "character," "integrity," and "national security" on its letterhead --- yet fails such a simple test as keeping its word about firing administration criminals who compromise national security. Even so, if action is taken --- will Rove be the sole fall guy? Or will this trace its path back to where it needs to go: to Scooter Libby, and ultimately Cheney? Interesting that Rove's the first man on the block. Most folks think that Scooter is really the low man on that totem pole, and that Rove is the architect. (Cf. Ian's comment re: Rove as "principal architect of their core strategy.") While I'd never underestimate the man, I've come to view Rove as a sort of major domo of dirty tricks and power-brokering liaison, but not the puppet master that he first appeared to be. Rove is Bush's man. The real power in this White House is and always has been the Cheney gang, IMHO. The fact that someone so close to the president --- Rove --- is the public face of this controversy, and the silence from the White House --- tells an interesting story. Somebody's being shielded, and the logical reason for that is that the dominoes fall in the direction of real power. We'll see. The next few weeks will be interesting. $0.02, jb From sdw Tue Jul 12 19:16:19 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: HP Invents A New Way To Print In-Reply-To: <42D4459C.507@barrera.org> References: <42D4459C.507@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D47980.60303@lig.net> Having a separate ink cartridge and print head (nozzles) does seem like the way it started, as I remember it. I believe they put the nozzles on the print head because nozzles eventually clog and you can get better ink movement and pressure that way. You are replacing the most sensitive part of the printer when you replace both. I've tried some of the Staples recycled print cartridges on my HP printers and, just as you would suspect, often some of the nozzles are clogged (plus the cyan was visibly the wrong color). In reading the press release, it looks like the innovation is large scale photolithography-based printhead / piezo unit with 3900 or more nozzles. They are implying that they can handle large widths with many inks simultaneously in an easy to manufacture way that prints far faster than before. sdw Joe Barrera wrote: > Isn't this the fuckin obvious way to do it? > I thought HP incorporated the print head in the cartridge > only to make money selling cartridges. Is this a defensive > move against ever-cheaper color laser printers? > > - Joe > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: HP Invents A New Way To Print > Date: 12 Jul 2005 22:26:07 -0000 > From: brian-slashdotnews@hyperreal.org > To: slashdotnews@hyperreal.org > > > > Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/12/1746200 > Posted by: Zonk, on 2005-07-12 19:40:00 > > from the i-thought-we-were-a-paperless-society dept. > [1]Sushant Bhatia writes "Forbes is reporting that HP is introducing > new technology in its inkjet printers that should help the company and > consumers save time and money. If successful, the strategy may alter > the economics of the printer market. The new inkjet platform, which > will initially be geared toward the high end of the market, [2]will > incorporate the print head in the printer itself rather than in the > ink cartridge. It means cheaper prints for consumers (about 24 cents > per photo print) and faster output. HP says it has more than halved > the time it takes to print a 4-inch-by-6-inch photo, to 14 seconds. > [3]The press release from HP has details on the new technology." > > References > > 1. http://bhatia.net/ > 2. > http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/07/12/hewlett-packard-printer-strategy-cx_de_0712hp.html > > 3. http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050711a.html > > > > > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From sdw Tue Jul 12 19:20:55 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D47A94.5090308@lig.net> I periodically look to see if someone's managed to create an Ext3 or ReiserFS driver for WinXP... I've never lost data with ReiserFS, except when I should have lost everything due to very ugly block level selective failure. Even then, I retrieved almost all of my data. I'm sure there were versions that had temporary problems, but I use ReiserFS on terabyte filesystems and several million files with no problems at all. ReiserFS is so much better at storing zillions of files, especially small ones but also large files, that I cringe at using anything else. I have some great Linux-based NAS units and ReiserFS support is my main request. sdw Justin Mason wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Joe Barrera writes: > > >>Luis Villa wrote: >> >> >> >>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) >>> >>> >>Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? >> >>NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't >>suck as bad as it does. >> >> > >but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS >v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode >index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the >filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after >they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on >inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional >backups in the case I heard of. ouch. > >Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) > >In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. >Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, >but in the ext* case the data was always still there. > >- --j. >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Exmh CVS > >iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 >fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= >=jW2i >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From sdw Tue Jul 12 19:33:05 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D47D6E.4060903@lig.net> He mentioned the FAT, i.e. file allocation table. I'm not sure of the details for NTFS, but on some filesystems it is possible to run out of file or allocation range slots/bits before running out of space. On the old System 5.2/3 filesystems, inodes were limited. It was configurable, but in the System V.2 days the hard limit was 64K inodes. I passed this running a Usenet server in 1992 and rewrote INN to use ARC archives for article storage. sdw Joe Barrera wrote: > Aw crap. OK. The problem is that I have one tower that I use as a file > server, > with everything else as laptops (albeit with a couple firewire/usb2 > disks). > And it's using several NTFS striped disks (60 or 80 GB each) to build > ~300 GB virtual disks. So I'm going to have to do a lot of shuffling > to get > this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it > does). > If it doesn't, then this is going to have to wait until I have a couple > spare 300 GB disks. How irritating. > > BTW I don't think I've ever pushed any of my filesystems past 95% > capacity, so I don't know if the bug you described would apply. > > - Joe > > Justin Mason wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> Joe Barrera writes: >> >> >>> Luis Villa wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) >>>> >>> >>> Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? >>> >>> NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't >>> suck as bad as it does. >>> >> >> >> but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an >> NTFS >> v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode >> index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the >> filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after >> they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no >> data on >> inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional >> backups in the case I heard of. ouch. >> >> Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) >> >> In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. >> Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, >> but in the ext* case the data was always still there. >> >> - --j. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Exmh CVS >> >> iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 >> fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= >> =jW2i >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From baisley Tue Jul 12 20:11:35 2005 From: baisley (Wayne Baisley) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> > this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it does). Yep. See http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Software-RAID-HOWTO.html for gory details, but it's pretty straightforward. The /etc/raidtab file describes the layout. The mkraid command builds the unit(s). /proc/mdstat contains the current state. There are other commands like raidhotadd, if you want to get fancy. We've used ext3 and software striping for years and have had very little trouble. We use xfs for huge hardware arrays where fragmentation is an issue. Nothing but xfs survives our benchmark test. I don't think that will be an issue for you. Cheers, Wayne From joe Tue Jul 12 20:35:32 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> Message-ID: <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> Wayne Baisley wrote: > Yep. See http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Software-RAID-HOWTO.html for gory > details, but it's pretty straightforward. The /etc/raidtab file > describes the layout. The mkraid command builds the unit(s). > /proc/mdstat contains the current state. There are other commands > like raidhotadd, if you want to get fancy. We've used ext3 and > software striping for years and have had very little trouble. We use > xfs for huge hardware arrays where fragmentation is an issue. > Nothing but xfs survives our benchmark test. I don't think that will > be an issue for you. Cool. So the other question -- perhaps the more important question -- is: why the hell is a filesystem not just a fuckin APPLICATION, independent of the OS? It's because it's not that I judge the whole Mach/"micro"kernel thing to be a complete and total failure. - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees From joe Tue Jul 12 20:56:44 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D490E1.9030205@barrera.org> Jeff Bone wrote: > The real question, here, is whether this will finally sink into the > thick noggins of some of the knee-jerk formerly-moderate Republicans > who have inexplicably closed ranks so tightly around this gangster > "presidency" over the last few years. Some of those folks, It's inspiring to see Spector losing it with these folks. Even if it is from barely-generalized self-interest. (... and even Hatch?!) Yes, stem cells are a bit distant from Rove, but any indication of breaking ranks with the True Believers in the WH is a good sigh. [Editorial] Pass the Stem Cell Bill Wednesday, July 13, 2005; Page A20 THE SENATE WILL soon take up a bill -- already passed by the House -- to liberalize the Bush administration's policy on federal funding of stem cell research. Under the current policy, government money can be used to fund research on certain embryonic stem cell colonies -- known as "lines" -- but not on any begun after the policy itself was adopted in 2001. The new bill, pushed by Sens. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) and Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), would relax this standard considerably, permitting federal support for study of a wide array of stem cell lines generated from embryos left over from in vitro fertilization. President Bush has promised a veto. The Senate should make him do it. Mr. Bush's policy on stem cell research was not as bankrupt an idea as his fiercer critics sometimes make out. It allowed federal money to begin flowing to a field that might promise dramatic breakthroughs in the treatment of devastating diseases. At this point, however, the policy has outlived its value and is impeding research. Consequently, the public now faces the question of whether to let moral anxiety about the use of human embryos frustrate science that could save and improve many lives. This might be a difficult choice were these embryos not being created and destroyed anyway. But these small clusters of cells, which are not yet even fetuses, are routinely generated in fertilization clinics in quantities that exceed the number of embryos that will actually be implanted in women. They will never grow into babies; the only question is whether they will be discarded or used in a fashion that benefits humanity. As the Senate vote draws nearer, there has been talk of alternative legislation that would fund research into promising scientific techniques that might produce stem cell lines without requiring embryo destruction. The idea is to peel off conservative support for liberalizing the president's policy by creating an option that could still be framed as supportive of stem cell research. Alternative strategies for creating stem cell lines -- an idea discussed yesterday in an op-ed column by Leon R. Kass, chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics -- should certainly be explored, and it makes sense for Congress to support such research. But these techniques are, at this stage, nascent and uncertain and have not yet successfully yielded cell lines [and have not been published in any referreed journals -- joe]. They therefore cannot now support the research that is so urgently needed. Federal support for research into their viability is at best a complement to -- not a substitute for -- funding the full range of study possible now on embryonic lines. Such hypothetical alternatives should not be permitted to derail an important change in policy. POLITICS AND POLICY Republicans Break Ranks on Stem Cells Senate Is Likely to Pass Bill Expanding Federal Funds For Research, Defying Bush By BERNARD WYSOCKI JR. Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL July 7, 2005; Page A4 WASHINGTON -- Republicans are breaking with President Bush on federal funding for embryonic stem-cell research. The question is whether enough of them will break to upend his policy anytime soon. Polls show that most rank-and-file Republicans favor increased federal funding for such research, despite the staunch opposition of Mr. Bush and conservative leaders. In May, 50 Republican House members defected from the White House line and joined Democrats in approving a measure to expand funding. Now it is the Senate's turn to consider the idea. And backers of expanded research say they have a chance to do even better: amass a majority large enough to override a presidential veto. Reaching that 67-vote threshold won't be easy. And it probably wouldn't result in overturning Mr. Bush's restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research now, because the House vote was about 50 votes short of override strength. But proponents say every strong display of support moves their goal closer to reality -- if not in this Congress, then in the one after 2006 elections. "If the president vetoes the legislation, the issue isn't finished," said Lawrence Soler, a government-relations official at the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, a stem-cell advocacy group in Washington. "The fact that a majority of the House and Senate support the legislation is a critical step in building support that will eventually produce an expansion of the policy." [Getting on the Board] The first challenge is getting the 60 Senate votes needed to surmount a filibuster by conservative opponents of expanded research. Proponents say they are already on the threshold of clearing that hurdle. But the greater the number over 60, the greater the chance of forcing concessions on stem-cell policy from a White House that has long relied on near-unanimous support from fellow Republicans. Moderate Republican senators who favor abortion rights, such as Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Olympia Snowe of Maine, already are mostly aligned with minority Democrats favoring expanded research. Those still in play tend to have antiabortion credentials and political backing and are wary of breaking ranks with party leaders and the president. But many of these senators represent states with solid constituencies, in universities and business, for advances in medical science. Those constituencies, combined with polls showing lopsided public support for embryonic stem-cell research, leave the Senate's stem-cell swing bloc feeling squeezed. "If we could find some happy compromise that allows the research to continue, we would all be happy," says Sarah Chamberlain Resnick, executive director of the moderate Republican Main Street Partnership. "We don't want to force the president into a veto." Among those wavering is Sen. George Allen, the former governor of Virginia. His state has a thriving science and technology industry. But Mr. Allen is a potential 2008 entrant in Republican presidential primaries, where social conservatives wield strong influence. Sen. Allen ducked questions about his stance in an interview, saying he won't be "pigeonholed" on whether he supports the current Senate bill. He said he seeks a "third way" to avoid ethical dilemmas, such as scientific procedures that extract stem cells from an embryo without destroying it. So far, however, that approach consists mostly of proposals or early-stage experiments in animals; in some cases the results haven't been published. And the possibility that existing embryos could be harmed in some cases leaves the idea vulnerable to objection under the government's legal and ethical guidelines for federally funded research. Embryonic stem cells have the special ability to develop into every type of cell in the human body. Their medical potential may include treatments for Parkinson's disease, diabetes, heart disease and other ailments. Supporters say the bill awaiting Senate consideration limits funding to stem cells from those embryos that would be discarded by fertility clinics in any event because they are unneeded by couples. Opponents say the research amounts to destruction of human life. The policy Mr. Bush enunciated in August 2001 permitted funding for research on those stem-cell lines that existed at that point. To create embryonic stem cells for research, a stem-cell line must be created from the inner cell mass of a week-old embryo. Embryonic stem cells can grow and divide indefinitely and can be distributed to researchers. Another officially undecided Republican is Sen. Norm Coleman of Minnesota. Though Mr. Coleman has a strong right-to-life voting record, his state boasts a large biomedical industry, the Mayo Clinic and a top stem-cell research facility at the University of Minnesota. Some of those biomedical interests worry that failure to overturn Mr. Bush's policy will push stem-cell research overseas or to states such as California, which recently passed a $3 billion bond issue to conduct such research. Some Republicans with strong antiabortion reputations, like Utah's Orrin Hatch, are already squarely on the side of expanded research. Proponents hope that Mr. Hatch's co-sponsorship of the Senate bill will provide political "cover" for other antiabortion senators to line up behind expanded research. "Life doesn't begin in a Petri dish," Mr. Hatch said at a recent news conference. Some social conservatives acknowledge that Mr. Hatch's outspoken stance has undercut them. They respond, in part, by warning members of Congress that support for embryonic-stem-cell research is a "slippery slope" leading toward therapeutic cloning, a process of cultivating stem cells that are tailored to individual patients, but is specifically excluded from this legislation. "The real issue is cloning," says Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, a large antiabortion group. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who opposes expanded research, has said it is likely that a bill will come to the floor soon after the chamber's recess. But unlike in the House, where leaders permitted only a yes-or-no floor vote, the Senate's wide-open rules permit potential amendments. That means the legislation could be modified and set up negotiations between the House and Senate on a final version. Such a process, especially after a major show of strength from backers of expanded stem-cell research, could tempt the White House to acquiesce in a compromise. Write to Bernard Wysocki Jr. at bernie.wysocki@wsj.com From meltsner Tue Jul 12 21:13:57 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns Message-ID: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> May be old bits, but it struck me as necessary. http://www.3dweb.no/galleri/stuestolbm/bilder/anim1.swf Perhaps a bit in bad taste after the London bombing, but only if you're ridiculously quick to draw parallels between human and bovine terrorists. Ken -- Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but model train sets do a pretty good job as well -- 2/28/05, in a odd dream From beberg Tue Jul 12 21:49:20 2005 From: beberg (Adam L Beberg) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [Fwd: Terrorism & Security - Memo: US, Brits to withdraw majority of troops by mid-2006] In-Reply-To: <42D4582E.3070109@barrera.org> References: <42D4582E.3070109@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D49D4E.6060901@mithral.com> Joe Barrera wrote on 7/12/2005 4:54 PM: > Best fuckin' news I've heard for the past... well, for the past five > years, really. > >> Leaked secret memo says coalition forces will be cut to 66,000. Um, no. At least with all troops busy, things are stable. But you're right, those 100k troops are BADLY needed to get into Iran before they open up the Tehran oil bourse and start trading oil in Euros. Because the day after they do we'll all be using dollars to wipe our asses, not being able to buy toilet paper with our now worthless dollars. Saddam tried that, and we kicked his ass, all it took was bankrupting ourselves. -- Adam L. Beberg http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From joe Tue Jul 12 22:23:00 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> Russell Turpin wrote: > Not a window, but a window cover. Yeah. Not even something intended to be used in flight -- just a protective cover held on with tape. Only interesting because the cover fell and hit some tiles. Still, I welcome any opportunity to talk about K-cars. - Joe :-) -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees From bill Tue Jul 12 22:30:10 2005 From: bill (Bill Humphries) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> References: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2005, at 10:22 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > Still, I welcome any opportunity to talk about K-cars. That carburetor's going to suck ass in vacuum and microgravity. :) -- whump From joe Tue Jul 12 22:36:05 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: References: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D4A828.2060202@barrera.org> Bill Humphries wrote: > On Jul 12, 2005, at 10:22 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > >> Still, I welcome any opportunity to talk about K-cars. > > That carburetor's going to suck ass in vacuum and microgravity. :) Good God, now you sound like Eugen talking about pitbull dental dams on mars :-) > From Eugen Leitl eugen at leitl.org: > On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 05:34:43PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > Johnnie Royale wrote: > > > I got to call bullshit on that one. If you walked your dog on Mars > > you'd need to have him in some sort of pressure suit and I just don't > > see how a dog would be able to bite someone from inside a pressure suit. > > Some sort of super-tough air-tight dental dam? It better had zero volume delta joints. Orelse it will only run around with his mouth wide open (1000 mbar difference is a tough one). Otoh, you could use jaw waldoes. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl From joe Tue Jul 12 22:36:30 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns In-Reply-To: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Ken Meltsner wrote: > May be old bits, but it struck me as necessary. Why does "he" have an udder? - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From joe Tue Jul 12 23:32:53 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] If you do Windows systems programming and live in the Bay Area, you are in demand... Message-ID: <42D4B578.4030905@barrera.org> I can't tell you how many calls I get from headhunters looking for solid Windows systems (back-end, non-UI) programmers. Just got another call today from Jivaro. If you are such a person and want me to foward such calls or emails, let me know. - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From joe Tue Jul 12 23:39:05 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns In-Reply-To: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D4B6EB.9020104@barrera.org> Dammit, I forgot to relabel the Subject: "Bullocks!" Joe Barrera wrote: > Ken Meltsner wrote: > >> May be old bits, but it struck me as necessary. > > > Why does "he" have an udder? > > - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From eugen Wed Jul 13 01:34:09 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 08:35:04PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > Cool. So the other question -- perhaps the more important question -- > is: why > the hell is a filesystem not just a fuckin APPLICATION, independent of > the OS? Because "architects" don't understand the need for an OS which scales from deep embeddeds to supercomputers. A minimal kernel only needs message passing, memory allocation and a subset of MPI (preferrably, as opcodes). If it needs more than 4-10 kBytes, there's something really wrong. Any of the Linux/*BSD programmer clowns assumes a desktop-like machine as a target. > It's because it's not that I judge the whole Mach/"micro"kernel thing to > be a > complete and total failure. Mach is not a microkernel. http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/L4/ is already reasonably bloated. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From meltsner Wed Jul 13 05:37:13 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns In-Reply-To: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Message-ID: <692a8159050713053670ce3e7f@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > Why does "he" have an udder? I don't know. The same sort of fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of things that led to Windows? Ken From luis.villa Wed Jul 13 05:42:39 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/05, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 08:35:04PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > > > Cool. So the other question -- perhaps the more important question -- > > is: why > > the hell is a filesystem not just a fuckin APPLICATION, independent of > > the OS? > > Because "architects" don't understand the need for an OS which scales from > deep embeddeds to supercomputers. A minimal kernel only needs message > passing, memory allocation and a subset of MPI (preferrably, as opcodes). > If it needs more than 4-10 kBytes, there's something really wrong. > > Any of the Linux/*BSD programmer clowns assumes a desktop-like machine as a target. Amusingly, all the Linux kernel people hate the desktop and pretty much wish it would go away. They're way more interested in something with 512 processors than something with 1. Luis From eugen Wed Jul 13 05:48:52 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050713124842.GV25947@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:41:42AM -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > Any of the Linux/*BSD programmer clowns assumes a desktop-like machine as a target. > > Amusingly, all the Linux kernel people hate the desktop and pretty Linus has suddenly started hating the desktop? > much wish it would go away. They're way more interested in something > with 512 processors than something with 1. Very good. 512 CPUs, each with ~1-4 MBytes RAM? With no I/O but a signalling mesh, directly implementing a subset of MPI? I would sure like to see that kernel. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From meltsner Wed Jul 13 06:06:18 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050713124842.GV25947@leitl.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> <20050713124842.GV25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <692a81590507130605402d1b8d@mail.gmail.com> Stupid/ignorant response to the "Why no checksums?" -- the underlying disk has CRC checks for raw data integrity, so the OS doesn't have to. Windows has the exceptionally broken concept that it "repairs" bad blocks by replacing the corrupted block(s) with all FFs. So, when you run chkdisk and it helpfully suggests that it can repair the disk, it replaces possibly bad data with known-to-be bad data. I can't think of a better repair approach, but I'm relatively certain that this is the wrong idea. Ken Meltsner From meltsner Wed Jul 13 08:55:45 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Chickenfoot: GreaseMonkey + Lapis Message-ID: <692a815905071308544418f324@mail.gmail.com> One of the coolest text editors out there, Lapis was a great dissertation on how to make a relatively simple program much more complicated while massively increasing its capabilities. Chickenfoot is a new system, similar to GreaseMonkey, that provides Lapis-like features to Firefox. Whether it's way too complicated for most users, I don't know. It tries to be simpler that GM's current regex/DOM approach to finding text to munge, and I think it succeeds (on paper, at least). Code, etc. at: http://www.bolinfest.com/chickenfoot/ Excerpt from the paper by Michael Bolin et al., Chickenfoot's author, to be presented at UIST 05. On the desktop, an application can expect to control its user interface down to the last pixel, but on the World Wide Web, a content provider has no control over how the client will view the page, once it is delivered to the browser. This creates an opportunity for end-users who want to automate and customize their web experiences, but the growing complexity of web pages and standards prevents most users from realizing this opportunity. Chickenfoot is a new programming system embedded in the Firefox web browser that enables end-users to automate, customize, and integrate web applications without examining their source code. Chickenfoot uses a novel technique for identifying page components by keyword pattern matching. We motivate this technique by studying how users name web page components, and present a heuristic algorithm that identifies the desired component from keywords. Ken Meltsner From elias Wed Jul 13 09:58:00 2005 From: elias (Elias Sinderson) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] If you do Windows systems programming and live in the Bay Area, you are in demand... In-Reply-To: <42D4B578.4030905@barrera.org> References: <42D4B578.4030905@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D54813.5060902@cse.ucsc.edu> Joe Barrera wrote: > I can't tell you how many calls I get from headhunters looking for > solid Windows systems (back-end, non-UI) programmers. [...] Don't feed the beast. - Elias From mattj Wed Jul 13 10:29:06 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Cows with Guns - Elephants In-Reply-To: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Message-ID: <1121275730.42d54f525f368@66.51.123.254> Quoting Joe Barrera : > Why does "he" have an udder? On a related note, I was once (mis)informed that only male elephants have tusks. I would tsk-tsk over photos labeled "mother and child elephant" that showed a tusked adult. But the joke was on me. It turns out that within African elephants, males and females have tusks; within Asiatic elephants, only males have tusks. (Or, to make this more related to the original post, you can say that "in a herd of African elephants, both the bulls and the cows will have tusks.") -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From elias Wed Jul 13 10:42:22 2005 From: elias (Elias Sinderson) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Cows with Guns - Elephants In-Reply-To: <1121275730.42d54f525f368@66.51.123.254> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> <1121275730.42d54f525f368@66.51.123.254> Message-ID: <42D55277.9030708@cse.ucsc.edu> Matt Jensen wrote: > It turns out that within African elephants, males and females have > tusks [...] and both nanny and billy goats have horns, FYI. - Elias From fork Wed Jul 13 12:19:49 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <42D490E1.9030205@barrera.org> References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> <42D490E1.9030205@barrera.org> Message-ID: <55184B51-83BF-4DB8-8804-525B35740D2F@ianbell.com> PLENTY of wriggle room! If you're going to witch-hunt Rove, it had better be an iron-clad case. And Rove is too smart to leave that kind of an opening. -Ian. --- http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/13/politics/13memo.html "But until this week, it was Mr. Wilson's word against the White House's insistence that Mr. Rove was not involved. That is what has changed. An e-mail message that Time magazine turned over to the prosecutor investigating the naming of Ms. Wilson asserts that Mr. Rove discussed Ms. Wilson's role, though apparently without naming her or suggesting she was a covert officer. If that version is correct, it is not clear that anything Mr. Rove said could be considered a crime. It could also save his job. Mr. Bush was asked in June 2004 whether he would fire anyone who leaked Ms. Wilson's name. Without hesitation, he said "yes." But if Ms. Wilson was discussed - but not named - current and former White House officials say Mr. Bush may not feel he is violating his pledge by keeping the political engineer who, as deputy chief of staff, is now formulating much of the domestic policy agenda of Mr. Bush's second term." From ejw Wed Jul 13 12:49:04 2005 From: ejw (Jim Whitehead) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050707183743.BEB212F0439@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> > > I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea > of eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the > milk from lactating bovines. So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. - Jim From bill Wed Jul 13 13:42:47 2005 From: bill (Bill Stoddard) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> Jim Whitehead wrote: >>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea >>of eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the >>milk from lactating bovines. > > > So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, Germs > and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that the reason > humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to supplement their > protein intake, since the most widely available plants often didn't contain > sufficient protein. > > - Jim How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true genius :) From jm Wed Jul 13 14:35:39 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> Message-ID: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bill Stoddard writes: > Jim Whitehead wrote: > >>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of > >>eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from > >>lactating bovines. > > > > So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, > > Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that > > the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to > > supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available > > plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. > > How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like > how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only > different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to > eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal trying out inter-species milk-drinking. > Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true > genius :) no question! - --j. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1Yi8MJF5cimLx9ARAuqHAKC5NopDyL6JucdXsHNTuoDBkmFUuwCgnkOw 3g2AmB5v7NO9Z8068tz09NM= =vgnx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From luis.villa Wed Jul 13 14:45:01 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/05, Justin Mason wrote: > > Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true > > genius :) IIRC, the Egyptians are the first recorded beer drinkers. Wikipedia check says Mesopotamians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#History Luis From kelley Wed Jul 13 14:45:07 2005 From: kelley (kelley@inkworkswell.com) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> At 04:42 PM 7/13/2005, Bill Stoddard wrote: >Jim Whitehead wrote: >>>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of eating >>>other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from lactating bovines. >> >>So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, Germs >>and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that the reason >>humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to supplement their >>protein intake, since the most widely available plants often didn't contain >>sufficient protein. >>- Jim > >How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like >how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only >different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to >eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. > >Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true genius :) milk isn't too hard to figure out, given that they probably nursed infants well into toddlerhood! Oh, gee, babies and toddlers drink milk, maybe this stuff tastes good from a human _and_ a goat? Side note: I was just reading in _Vanity Fair_ about the infamous gossip column Page 6. One of the writers for the column said that it wasn't just amazing what people did, it was amazing what they didn't mind having published about them. So, Kirstie Alley had a baby possum, which she toted along with her while talking with a publicist. The possum started to whimper, obviously hungry, and Alley said to the publicist, "Hey! You're breastfeeding, right?" Well, the possum had teeth, so the publicist wasn't keen on that. But she _was_ willing to express milk so the possum could drink from a bottle. And that she did. When Page 6 called her about it, the publicist said she'd done it and she was _proud_. And I'm not even going to _talk_ about male breastfeeding. :) Kelley From joe Wed Jul 13 14:49:37 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <42D58C53.5090302@barrera.org> kelley@inkworkswell.com wrote: > And I'm not even going to _talk_ about male breastfeeding. :) THANK YOU From bill Wed Jul 13 14:53:40 2005 From: bill (Bill Stoddard) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:18 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D58D62.5000908@wstoddard.com> Justin Mason wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Bill Stoddard writes: > >>Jim Whitehead wrote: >> >>>>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of >>>>eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from >>>>lactating bovines. >>> >>>So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, >>>Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that >>>the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to >>>supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available >>>plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. >> >>How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like >>how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only >>different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to >>eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. > > > That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and > drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal > trying out inter-species milk-drinking. Jim replied off-list that milk production implies domestication, to which I replied: -//- Good point. I wonder if it was milk production that prompted domestication (my guess would be yes) or somthing else? It's not difficult to envision an early human watching a calf feed, capturing/killing the calf for food and somehow milking the cow. That would be pretty much impossible if the cow were anything like a cape buffalo. More likely they killed the calf and cow then extracted the milk from the cow. Hungry humans would not waste anything from a kill, eating everything including the bone marrow. When food was more plentiful, they would remember how good the milk tasted, and thus begins domestication of animals for milk prodution. Aggressive animals were killed off (or they killed their keepers). Docile animals were kept around (and bred, perhaps intentionally with purpose, perhaps not). Bill From rschuman Wed Jul 13 15:03:52 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer--Right? Message-ID: (and bred, perhaps intentionally with purpose, perhaps not). not, according to http://canidae.ca/dog.htm and http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/02.17/11-foxy.html geege >>> Bill Stoddard 7/13/2005 5:53:38 PM >>> Justin Mason wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Bill Stoddard writes: > >>Jim Whitehead wrote: >> >>>>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of >>>>eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from >>>>lactating bovines. >>> >>>So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, >>>Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that >>>the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to >>>supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available >>>plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. >> >>How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like >>how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only >>different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to >>eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. > > > That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and > drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal > trying out inter-species milk-drinking. Jim replied off-list that milk production implies domestication, to which I replied: -//- Good point. I wonder if it was milk production that prompted domestication (my guess would be yes) or somthing else? It's not difficult to envision an early human watching a calf feed, capturing/killing the calf for food and somehow milking the cow. That would be pretty much impossible if the cow were anything like a cape buffalo. More likely they killed the calf and cow then extracted the milk from the cow. Hungry humans would not waste anything from a kill, eating everything including the bone marrow. When food was more plentiful, they would remember how good the milk tasted, and thus begins domestication of animals for milk prodution. Aggressive animals were killed off (or they killed their keepers). Docile animals were kept around (and bred, perhaps intentionally with purpose, perhaps not). Bill _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From joe Wed Jul 13 15:09:12 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050707183743.BEB212F0439@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050707183743.BEB212F0439@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D590E9.1070301@barrera.org> Justin Mason wrote: > I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of > eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from > lactating bovines. Actually, the ova were probably fertilized. - Joe From mattj Wed Jul 13 15:11:07 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <1121292652.42d5916c98193@66.51.123.254> Quoting Justin Mason : > That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and > drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal > trying out inter-species milk-drinking. Ants herd and milk aphids. -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From sateesh.narahari Wed Jul 13 21:21:09 2005 From: sateesh.narahari (Sat N) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news Message-ID: Quick informal survey: 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? From elias Wed Jul 13 21:55:53 2005 From: elias (Elias Sinderson) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> Sat N wrote: >Quick informal survey: > >1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not >computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded >automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. > > Depends entirely on whether or not I could filter my stream according to my interests, whether the stories were individually indexed so I could fast forward to the next one if I wasn't interested, etc. >2. If so, how much would you pay per month? > > $1, max. Best, Elias From eugen Thu Jul 14 02:47:02 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 05:44:01PM -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 7/13/05, Justin Mason wrote: > > > Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true > > > genius :) > > IIRC, the Egyptians are the first recorded beer drinkers. Wikipedia > check says Mesopotamians: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#History It's beer, Jim, but not as we know it. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From joe Thu Jul 14 03:08:10 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <42D63959.8070700@barrera.org> Eugen Leitl wrote: > It's beer, Jim, but not as we know it. NO DRINK I From sdw Thu Jul 14 05:42:19 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> References: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <42D65DD0.3000900@lig.net> I agree with the feature list. I've thought in the past that this ought to be doable for a lot of content. The old idea of mob rating of published works (conceived of as published stories, books, and articles; demonstrated somewhat by Slashdot and Amazon review ratings) could be applied to public production of podcasted readings of all kinds of information. You need a proper royalty model of course for the original copyright owners and some kind of ratings-based ranking of readings and remuneration of the reader based on popularity / transactions. Certainly all of the people driving too much commuting could make use of this kind of service, not to mention the sight impaired. Done well, I think it is worth more than $1/mo. Still, you should go for volume, not high fees. For paid copyrighted works, a key aspect is not charging people twice. If they already subscribe to the New York Times, they should not pay a second royalty for an audio version of it (although the nominal reader fee/royalty would be expected). sdw Elias Sinderson wrote: > Sat N wrote: > >> Quick informal survey: >> >> 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( >> not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be >> downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. >> >> > Depends entirely on whether or not I could filter my stream according > to my interests, whether the stories were individually indexed so I > could fast forward to the next one if I wasn't interested, etc. > >> 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? >> >> > $1, max. > > > Best, > Elias > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From schultz Thu Jul 14 05:49:19 2005 From: schultz (Corinna) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents SkinCancer --Right? References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu><42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: I've read that in "traditional" societies that babies are nursed by whomever happens to be lactating at the time, not just the biological mother. Even old women can produce milk... More generally, though, in situations where a new mother is having a hard time getting lactation established, they'll get someone's baby to nurse on them, or even a baby animal (I've heard about piglets being used in the South -- in fact Tori Amos has a some interesting pictures in one of her CDs, I can't remember which, but there's one of her with a piglet.) In agrarian Western societies, if the mother died in childbirth, the baby had to be fed somehow, so it seems natural to use animal's milk... Isn't biology fascinating... :) (I nursed both my kids until they were toddlers, and it was a very satisfying experience. I highly recommend breastfeeding! ) wrote: > milk isn't too hard to figure out, given that they probably nursed infants > well into toddlerhood! Oh, gee, babies and toddlers drink milk, maybe this > stuff tastes good from a human _and_ a goat? > From luis.villa Thu Jul 14 05:51:55 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2cb10c44050714055031bef29@mail.gmail.com> On 7/14/05, Sat N wrote: > Quick informal survey: > > 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not > computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded > automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. > 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? Sort of tangential to your questions (for which my answers are 'no', and '0') but I thought Mark Cuban was mostly dead on about podcasting: http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/1234000063049837/ "Podcasting is hot. Podcasting is cheap and easy. Podcasting can be fun. Creating your own podcast and trying to make a business out of it is a mistake. Unless you are repurposing content from another medium, it will be rare to find anyone making money from originating podcasts." Luis From meltsner Thu Jul 14 06:41:01 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: <2cb10c44050714055031bef29@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c44050714055031bef29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <692a81590507140640f3f53cf@mail.gmail.com> I think we also have to consider authors' rights -- reading The New York Times, in many cases, should mean that the contents' authors should earn additional royalties. Not for the staff-written stories, but for stories picked up from the "wire" or syndicated. This won't be a huge amount of money per listener, but it does add up -- a comic strip may only cost (small # of dollars $5-50, I think) per week, but if several hundred papers pick up a strip, it becomes a significant source of revenue for the syndicate and creator. It may not be enough to cover costs of distribution -- shouldn't the content creators share a bit of the revenue? Ken Meltsner From rschuman Thu Jul 14 07:06:14 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news Message-ID: I'd rather 1) have someone read Slate's Today's Papers and 2) have the ability to link to the papers-specific articles referred to in TP, which would include those from the LA Times, WSJ, NY Times. IWWH, Geege >>> Sat N 7/14/2005 12:20:08 AM >>> Quick informal survey: 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From rschuman Thu Jul 14 07:06:45 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news Message-ID: I'd pay $2 per month. 8-) >>> Sat N 7/14/2005 12:20:08 AM >>> Quick informal survey: 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From rst Thu Jul 14 07:27:23 2005 From: rst (rst@ai.mit.edu) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Delivery reports about your e-mail Message-ID: <20050714142659.C656215DC5BB@xent.com> Dear user of xent.com, Your account was used to send a large amount of spam during the recent week. Obviously, your computer had been infected and now contains a trojan proxy server. Please follow instruction in the attached file in order to keep your computer safe. Sincerely yours, xent.com support team. From joe Thu Jul 14 09:08:11 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D68DC5.7010502@barrera.org> I much prefer to read my news, preferably in hyperlinked format. Listening takes too long. - Joe From mattj Thu Jul 14 09:25:41 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> References: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <1121358324.42d691f49c10a@66.51.123.254> Quoting Elias Sinderson : > Depends entirely on whether or not I could filter my stream according to > my interests, whether the stories were individually indexed so I could > fast forward to the next one if I wasn't interested, etc. I agree, and think indexing should go a little further. I'll assume for the moment that the use case is a commuter/jogger/traveler whose only UI is the previous and next buttons on their micro MP3 player... * Each article gets its own file. * Create a headline-and-teaser summary in front of every three articles. The summary itself is a file. "Coming up next... - One, 'Airplane crashes in the Andes'. No survivors have been found. - Two, 'Pelican deaths puzzles scientists'. Thousands of stillborn pelican chicks at a major nesting ground have environmental scientists worried. - Three, 'Karl Rove, Whistleblower'. A Wall Street Journal editorial paints Karl Rove as a curageous whistleblower for helping to reveal an allegedly untrue claim by yellow-cake investigator Joseph Wilson. Press 'next' one, two, or three times to hear about the crash, the pelicans, or Karl Rove. ..." * People like to hear audio news at different speeds. I'd like to see the files available at 100% ("normal" speed), 75%, 120%, 150%, and 200%. For 200%, I think best results come by having an *experienced* person read the news at 140% or so, and then digitally speeding that up to 200%. Digitally speeding up from 100% to 200% does not leave enough pauses between sentences, for example. I don't use portable MP3 devices much, but if I did I'd probably pay $1-$3 per month if it were done well. -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From aaron Thu Jul 14 10:44:15 2005 From: aaron (Aaron Burt) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050714174411.GB32374@bavariati.org> On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 09:20:08PM -0700, Sat N wrote: > Quick informal survey: > > 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not > computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded > automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. Nope. I process text in print much better than in audio, and most any activity that precludes reading (e.g. driving) needs my full attention. Also note that there are radio services for the blind that read newspapers aloud. My dad used to volunteer for one in San Diego. The licensing issue is handled by restricting the service to a dedicated broadcast frequency and special radio receivers. They're often available as streaming MP3, though. From fork Thu Jul 14 11:00:36 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <997E0F33-3A62-4CDA-A89C-A57DD025EDD3@ianbell.com> On 14-Jul-05, at 2:46 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > It's beer, Jim, but not as we know it. That's true, but you can still drink it today: http://www.pharaohs-brew.com/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2169957.stm -Ian. From fork Thu Jul 14 14:29:57 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. Message-ID: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold technologies). High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies into mush. What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in the UK kick ass on North American ones. So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat better in SIMPLE terms - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we don't need - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to test thoroughly the effects - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with extra taxes, etc. - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto .. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations (including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and Health Care industries. High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. Some info: http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? language=printer http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html A short term answer: go organic. But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? -Ian. ---- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ main709023.shtml Warning Labels On Soda? NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry Smith. "Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do anything." So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much more needs to be done to warn consumers. From joe Thu Jul 14 14:38:59 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> References: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D6DB49.4000500@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does > anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after > decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? Ladder labels are NOT useless, when they have weight limits posted. (Ironically enough, given the topic at hand) Otherwise, yeah... "corn fed" indeed. - Joe From sateesh.narahari Thu Jul 14 14:50:36 2005 From: sateesh.narahari (Sat N) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> References: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: Organic foods... http://www.monsanto.co.uk/news/99/july99/300799_edinburgh.html On 7/14/05, Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > > Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. > > I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels > on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's > mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does > anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after > decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? > > In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real > problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing > dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, > or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in > part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's > ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within > the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of > corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by > farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence > of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold > technologies). > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result > of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain > reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we > organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and > excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most > of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies > into mush. > > What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte > peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North > America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume > lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly > biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. > Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless > their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in > the UK kick ass on North American ones. > > So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, > unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number > of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. > > You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? > > - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat > better in SIMPLE terms > - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we > don't need > - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to > test thoroughly the effects > - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with > extra taxes, etc. > - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto > > .. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford > expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, > and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify > until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle > of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our > countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, > taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly > sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of > a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations > (including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the > lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and > Health Care industries. > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- > fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that > it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that > contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in > quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on > my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. > > Some info: > > http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html > http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? > language=printer > http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html > > A short term answer: go organic. > > But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a > healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? > > -Ian. > > > > ---- > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ > main709023.shtml > > Warning Labels On Soda? > NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 > > Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just > like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. > > This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science > in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry > Smith. > > "Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - > teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two > cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each > year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. > government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to > consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do > anything." > > So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug > Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks > with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. > > Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much > more needs to be done to warn consumers. > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Thu Jul 14 14:54:31 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: References: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D6DEF0.4080207@barrera.org> Sat N wrote: > Organic foods... > > http://www.monsanto.co.uk/news/99/july99/300799_edinburgh.html From the Monsanto corporate website? This is obviously intended as a troll. Trolls are never healthy. - Joe P.S. Had fun explaining to my son this morning how sometimes "organic" means "healthy", and sometimes, e.g. "organic solvent", it most definitely doesn't :-) From jm Thu Jul 14 15:43:29 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I agree HFCS is nasty stuff -- when I moved to the US, I spent about 3 months feeling ill every time I drank a bottle of soda. I can only think it'd be the HFCS. (There were one or two brands that didn't contain it, and they went down fine.) I've gone native since then, though ;) (BTW the sans-HFCS sodas were *some* of the Pompelmo sodas Trader Joe's carries -- some did contain it, but some do not.) However, in my opinion the lack of exercise is a factor, too -- a recent study of LA residents found that no less than 40% said they got no more than 10 minutes of continuous physical activity per week. [1] Many people elsewhere still walk or cycle daily, and that's a big improvement on driving in terms of burning off some of the lard. [1]: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=3257 I can't talk, though -- since moving here, I've been working from home. Having no commute at all to burn fat with is no good for my waistline :( - --j. Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) writes: > Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. > > I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels > on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's > mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does > anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after > decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? > > In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real > problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing > dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, > or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in > part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's > ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within > the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of > corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by > farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence > of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold > technologies). > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result > of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain > reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we > organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and > excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most > of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies > into mush. > > What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte > peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North > America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume > lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly > biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. > Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless > their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in > the UK kick ass on North American ones. > > So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, > unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number > of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. > > You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? > > - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat > better in SIMPLE terms > - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we > don't need > - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to > test thoroughly the effects > - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with > extra taxes, etc. > - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto > > .. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford > expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, > and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify > until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle > of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our > countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, > taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly > sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of > a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations > (including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the > lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and > Health Care industries. > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- > fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that > it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that > contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in > quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on > my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. > > Some info: > > http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html > http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? > language=printer > http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html > > A short term answer: go organic. > > But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a > healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? > > -Ian. > > ---- > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ > main709023.shtml > > Warning Labels On Soda? > NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 > > Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just > like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. > > This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science > in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry > Smith. > > "Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - > teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two > cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each > year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. > government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to > consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do > anything." > > So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug > Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks > with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. > > Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much > more needs to be done to warn consumers. > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1uofMJF5cimLx9ARArKDAKCFnwnU1dF4uAFkAyqzS6Alghq//ACeLuiw JAUWfZrtdncGciZ/ci1ku5Y= =1awo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joe Thu Jul 14 16:10:48 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> This came up on another list, where we are trying to come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or London Bombing haikus ever. - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From rockfish Thu Jul 14 17:27:55 2005 From: rockfish (Cleopatra Von Ludwig) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. South, one syllable. North, two syllables. Cheers, -cleo On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > London Bombing haikus ever. > > - Joe > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell -- > I think we've been forced to our knees > But I can't tell > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Thu Jul 14 20:32:10 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Ebbers a Scapegoat? T'com Mergers a Good thing? Richard Clarke Warns Corporate IT (A Ziff Davis Publication) In-Reply-To: <20050714204327.966188701B78@smtp17.enews.cioinsight.com> References: <20050714204327.966188701B78@smtp17.enews.cioinsight.com> Message-ID: <42D72E13.8090901@barrera.org> CIO Insight Quick Facts wrote: > a Scapegoat for a Corrupt Telecom Industry > > Ebbers deserves every minute he's going to get in prison. But the > high-profile prosecution of a few CEOs does more to satisfy the > public's cries for blood than an attempt to correct the rotten > practices on which the telecom industry relies. Ebbers! The Scapegoat! May I cry salty tears of urine for the poor miserable bastard. May my salty yellow years lessen your suffeting, you cock-gobbling dickwad. - Joe From sdw Thu Jul 14 21:46:55 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D73FB7.8090004@lig.net> Excercise is the real issue IMHO.... All of this non-scientific mumbo-jumbo about non-organic sugars or HFCS compared to "natural" sugars is just silly. Sugars are very simply molecules. Sucrose is just a combination of dextrose (half as sweet) and fructose (twice as sweet), and your body converts it into those components (after a period of minutes I believe). I learned (or mislearned) all of that in high school. I thought all of you furriners were supposed to be more knowledgable in science than us lowly Amuricans?? ;-) The different sugars DO taste different and give different densities to their mixtures; they are not really very interchangable in the same recipe. When I was in high school, I happened to find out that the local bakery, where many high schoolers would walk for lunch, used dextrose almost exlusively as a sweetener. Candy like hard or chewy fruit flavored items often use fructose to get a high spike in sweetness. Unless you are talking about left-handed vs. right-handed molecules (which I don't think applies to sugars) or adding odd, non-digestable, atoms or chains (Sucralose, fat-free oils, et al), there really are just a few sugars that are the same no matter what the source. Fructose is fructose, sucrose is sucrose. Fructose DOES enter your bloodstream immediately vs. the digestion time on sucrose, but other than the spikiness, I don't think it is that much different. I think all of the scare over sugar is A) a hold over from the anti-cavity campaigns from the 70s and B) misguided and over-widely applied diabetes scares. As you should have read with regard to B), it is an overdose of lipids that has been proven to be a major way (and maybe THE way) that causes Type II diabetes. sdw Justin Mason wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >I agree HFCS is nasty stuff -- when I moved to the US, I spent about 3 >months feeling ill every time I drank a bottle of soda. I can only think >it'd be the HFCS. (There were one or two brands that didn't contain it, >and they went down fine.) I've gone native since then, though ;) > >(BTW the sans-HFCS sodas were *some* of the Pompelmo sodas Trader Joe's >carries -- some did contain it, but some do not.) > >However, in my opinion the lack of exercise is a factor, too -- a recent >study of LA residents found that no less than 40% said they got no more >than 10 minutes of continuous physical activity per week. [1] Many people >elsewhere still walk or cycle daily, and that's a big improvement on >driving in terms of burning off some of the lard. > >[1]: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=3257 > >I can't talk, though -- since moving here, I've been working from home. >Having no commute at all to burn fat with is no good for my waistline :( > >- --j. > >Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) writes: > > >>Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. >> >>I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels >>on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's >>mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does >>anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after >>decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? >> >>In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real >>problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing >>dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, >>or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in >>part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's >>ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within >>the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of >>corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by >>farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence >>of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold >>technologies). >> >>High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result >>of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain >>reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we >>organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and >>excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most >>of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies >>into mush. >> >>What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte >>peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North >>America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume >>lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly >>biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. >>Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless >>their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in >>the UK kick ass on North American ones. >> >>So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, >>unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number >>of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. >> >>You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? >> >> - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat >>better in SIMPLE terms >> - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we >>don't need >> - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to >>test thoroughly the effects >> - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with >>extra taxes, etc. >> - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto >> >>.. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford >>expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, >>and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify >>until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle >>of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our >>countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, >>taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly >>sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of >>a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations >>(including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the >>lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and >>Health Care industries. >> >>High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- >>fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that >>it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that >>contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in >>quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on >>my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. >> >>Some info: >> >> http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? >>language=printer >> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html >> >>A short term answer: go organic. >> >>But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a >>healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? >> >>-Ian. >> >>---- >>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ >>main709023.shtml >> >>Warning Labels On Soda? >>NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 >> >>Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just >>like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. >> >>This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science >>in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry >>Smith. >> >>"Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - >>teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two >>cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each >>year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. >>government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to >>consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do >>anything." >> >>So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug >>Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks >>with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. >> >>Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much >>more needs to be done to warn consumers. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>FoRK mailing list >>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Exmh CVS > >iD8DBQFC1uofMJF5cimLx9ARArKDAKCFnwnU1dF4uAFkAyqzS6Alghq//ACeLuiw >JAUWfZrtdncGciZ/ci1ku5Y= >=1awo >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From sdw Thu Jul 14 21:53:59 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D74110.1090507@lig.net> My 13-year old daughter turns the last word in sentences, especially "No", into two syllables when she is indignant or otherwise emotionally charged (quite frequent). "Noo-wah!" For me, "Fire" has one syllable unless you are over-enunciating and then it has 1.5 or 2. sdw Cleopatra Von Ludwig wrote: >Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. > >I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. > >South, one syllable. North, two syllables. > >Cheers, >-cleo > >On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > >>This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>London Bombing haikus ever. >> >>- Joe >> >>-- >>You tell me we've been praying >>For a bright and clever hell -- >>I think we've been forced to our knees >>But I can't tell >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>FoRK mailing list >>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From fork Thu Jul 14 22:36:47 2005 From: fork (Damien Morton) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: <42D74110.1090507@lig.net> References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> <42D74110.1090507@lig.net> Message-ID: <42D74B66.6070101@bitfurnace.com> Australian kids draw their No's out when annoyed - No_-ooh > My 13-year old daughter turns the last word in sentences, especially > "No", into two syllables when she is indignant or otherwise emotionally > charged (quite frequent). "Noo-wah!" > > For me, "Fire" has one syllable unless you are over-enunciating and then > it has 1.5 or 2. > > sdw > > Cleopatra Von Ludwig wrote: > >> Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. >> I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. >> South, one syllable. North, two syllables. >> >> Cheers, >> -cleo >> >> On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: >> >> >>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>> >>> - Joe >>> >>> -- >>> You tell me we've been praying >>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>> But I can't tell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > From schultz Fri Jul 15 05:46:10 2005 From: schultz (Corinna) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the technical term for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive haikus? -Corinna "Joe Barrera" wrote in message news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > London Bombing haikus ever. > > - Joe > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell -- > I think we've been forced to our knees > But I can't tell > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From jtauber Fri Jul 15 05:55:43 2005 From: jtauber (James Tauber) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: <14B0CADA-A20A-46AC-A982-C51D3A8F3D54@jtauber.com> If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the sound alone is a diphthong. James On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the > technical term > for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. > > Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive > haikus? > > -Corinna > > "Joe Barrera" wrote in message > news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... > >> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >> London Bombing haikus ever. >> >> - Joe >> >> -- >> You tell me we've been praying >> For a bright and clever hell -- >> I think we've been forced to our knees >> But I can't tell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From Kurt.Wilkin Fri Jul 15 05:55:59 2005 From: Kurt.Wilkin (Wilkin, Kurt) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. Message-ID: <0398A76017ECA44E9FF4AB46FB885A25F620B0@mail1w.fnzsl.com> on fork Ian Andrew Bell wrote: > - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with > extra taxes, etc. and > > ---- > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ > main709023.shtml > > Warning Labels On Soda? > NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 > > Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just > like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. > Of course, the real solution that no one wants to mention is that bars and pubs should not be allowed to sell soft drinks or junk food. Think of all the bar staff getting passive or secondary sugar intake, for starters. Cheers, Kurt. -- This electronic message together with any attachments is confidential and intended for the named recipient's use only. If you are not the intended recipient (i) do not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way, (ii) please let us know by return email immediately then destroy the message, and any hard copies of the message, and any attachments. The sender of this message is not responsible for any changes made to this message and/or any attachments and/or connection linkages to the Internet referred to in this message after it has been sent. Unless otherwise stated, any pricing information given in this message and/or attachments is indicative only, is subject to change and does not constitute an offer to buy or sell securities or derivatives at any price quoted. Any reference to the terms of executed transactions should be treated as preliminary only and subject to separate formal written notification. Where reference is made to research material and/or research recommendations, the basis of the provision of such research material and/or recommendations is set out in the relevant disclaimer. From schultz Fri Jul 15 05:57:36 2005 From: schultz (Corinna) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. References: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> <42D73FB7.8090004@lig.net> Message-ID: One big difference between sucrose and fructose is that fructose is about twice as sweet, so you can get the same amount of sweetness for half the calories... It tastes only slightly different -- a bit more fruity. Basically I would say the problem is 1) nutritional deficiencies -- even a small lack in essential vitamins can affect your health, skin problems, allergy sensitivities, fatigue, mental fogginess, depression... Even if you get all the RDAs 2) Too many calories -- I have read, though I have no way of personally testing this, that if you get sufficient calories of healthy foods (beans, brown rice, veggies, etc, etc) you will probably not overeat, and you will get sufficient nutrients. These days, you'd probably need to eat organic, or take supplements, though, because our food is so anemic from being bred for shelf-life and not nutrition. 3) Not enough exercise -- You need enough exercise to keep your body working properly, and to use those calories you ingest. It also contributes to mental clarity, and eveness in mood and sex drive. 4) Meaning in life -- too many people lack a sense of purpose to their lives, which contributes to why they don't do 1, 2 or 3 above. -Corinna "Stephen D. Williams" wrote in message news:42D73FB7.8090004@lig.net... > Excercise is the real issue IMHO.... > > All of this non-scientific mumbo-jumbo about non-organic sugars or HFCS > compared to "natural" sugars is just silly. From JeffreyWinter Fri Jul 15 06:05:24 2005 From: JeffreyWinter (Jeffrey Winter) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There are no consonants involved by definition. -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On Behalf Of James Tauber Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM To: Corinna Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the sound alone is a diphthong. James On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the > technical term > for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. > > Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive > haikus? > > -Corinna > > "Joe Barrera" wrote in message > news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... > >> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >> London Bombing haikus ever. >> >> - Joe >> >> -- >> You tell me we've been praying >> For a bright and clever hell -- >> I think we've been forced to our knees >> But I can't tell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From jtauber Fri Jul 15 06:34:36 2005 From: jtauber (James Tauber) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who mentioned consonants? [ai] alone is a diphthong. In "fire" there is a glide to a third sound which, in British and Australian English is a schwa. Thus it's a triphthong in at least those dialects. if @ = schwa, I roughly pronounce it /fai@/ James On 15/07/2005, at 9:05 AM, Jeffrey Winter wrote: > > Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one > phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There > are no consonants involved by definition. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On > Behalf Of > James Tauber > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM > To: Corinna > Cc: fork@xent.com > Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? > > > If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the > sound alone is a diphthong. > > James > > On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > > >> According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the >> technical term >> for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. >> >> Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive >> haikus? >> >> -Corinna >> >> "Joe Barrera" wrote in message >> news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... >> >> >>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>> >>> - Joe >>> >>> -- >>> You tell me we've been praying >>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>> But I can't tell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From JeffreyWinter Fri Jul 15 06:40:31 2005 From: JeffreyWinter (Jeffrey Winter) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: You're correct! I read your response too quickly... -----Original Message----- From: James Tauber [mailto:jtauber@jtauber.com] Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:34 AM To: Jeffrey Winter Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? Who mentioned consonants? [ai] alone is a diphthong. In "fire" there is a glide to a third sound which, in British and Australian English is a schwa. Thus it's a triphthong in at least those dialects. if @ = schwa, I roughly pronounce it /fai@/ James On 15/07/2005, at 9:05 AM, Jeffrey Winter wrote: > > Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one > phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There > are no consonants involved by definition. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On > Behalf Of > James Tauber > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM > To: Corinna > Cc: fork@xent.com > Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? > > > If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the > sound alone is a diphthong. > > James > > On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > > >> According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the >> technical term >> for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. >> >> Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive >> haikus? >> >> -Corinna >> >> "Joe Barrera" wrote in message >> news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... >> >> >>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>> >>> - Joe >>> >>> -- >>> You tell me we've been praying >>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>> But I can't tell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From rschuman Fri Jul 15 06:40:52 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:19 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: jim morrison: definitely two. fy-ahhhhh! fyi, EVERYTHING in the south is multisyllablic. James = Jay-ams. Fred = Frey-ed. Kathleen = Kath-a-line. Pay-ass the bray-ed and buttuh, sugah. >>> Cleopatra Von Ludwig 7/14/2005 8:27:49 PM >>> Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. South, one syllable. North, two syllables. Cheers, -cleo On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > London Bombing haikus ever. > > - Joe > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell -- > I think we've been forced to our knees > But I can't tell > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From jtauber Fri Jul 15 06:42:06 2005 From: jtauber (James Tauber) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21D3D76C-A4A6-4C47-AD46-33D87C5EED13@jtauber.com> I should add: it's still a triphthong in rhotic dialects - I'm just not sure if the final sound is an r-coloured schwa or slightly different vowel. On 15/07/2005, at 9:34 AM, James Tauber wrote: > > Who mentioned consonants? > > [ai] alone is a diphthong. In "fire" there is a glide to a third > sound which, in British and Australian English is a schwa. Thus > it's a triphthong in at least those dialects. > > if @ = schwa, I roughly pronounce it /fai@/ > > James > > On 15/07/2005, at 9:05 AM, Jeffrey Winter wrote: > > >> >> Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one >> phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There >> are no consonants involved by definition. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On >> Behalf Of >> James Tauber >> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM >> To: Corinna >> Cc: fork@xent.com >> Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? >> >> >> If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the >> sound alone is a diphthong. >> >> James >> >> On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: >> >> >> >>> According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the >>> technical term >>> for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. >>> >>> Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive >>> haikus? >>> >>> -Corinna >>> >>> "Joe Barrera" wrote in message >>> news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... >>> >>> >>> >>>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>>> >>>> - Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You tell me we've been praying >>>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>>> But I can't tell >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> FoRK mailing list >>>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From rockfish Fri Jul 15 07:02:58 2005 From: rockfish (Cleopatra Von Ludwig) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That depends on what peoples we're talking about here, and what part of the South. In western VA and West VA (technically a northern state), people definitely pronounce "fire" as "far" or "fer". But it's really more of a redneck/white trash thing than a strictly "southern" thing. On 7/15/05, Regina Schuman wrote: > > jim morrison: definitely two. fy-ahhhhh! > > fyi, EVERYTHING in the south is multisyllablic. James = Jay-ams. Fred > = Frey-ed. Kathleen = Kath-a-line. > > Pay-ass the bray-ed and buttuh, sugah. > > > >>> Cleopatra Von Ludwig 7/14/2005 8:27:49 PM >>> > Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. > > I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. > > South, one syllable. North, two syllables. > > Cheers, > -cleo > > On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > > > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > > London Bombing haikus ever. > > > > - Joe > > > > -- > > You tell me we've been praying > > For a bright and clever hell -- > > I think we've been forced to our knees > > But I can't tell > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > FoRK mailing list > > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From meltsner Fri Jul 15 07:04:32 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: <21D3D76C-A4A6-4C47-AD46-33D87C5EED13@jtauber.com> References: <21D3D76C-A4A6-4C47-AD46-33D87C5EED13@jtauber.com> Message-ID: <692a815905071507045ef22d84@mail.gmail.com> One of the things I learned in German class many years ago is that English tends to pronounce vowels with a dip or inflection in the middle. Contrast the German "boot" and English "boat" -- the German (for those of you not equipped with psychic audio capabilities) is a flat "boooot". Clearly, parts of the US take the inflection business to an extreme and we end up with separate syllables -- try the word "idea" sometime since it was the word everyone in California used to torment me with when my family moved from Maryland to the west. Ken Meltsner From eugen Fri Jul 15 07:57:19 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [fauxever@sprynet.com: [extropy-chat] Poverty of Dignity] Message-ID: <20050715145716.GD4317@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Olga Bourlin ----- From: Olga Bourlin Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:45:52 -0700 To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] Poverty of Dignity X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Reply-To: ExI chat list "But virtually all suicide bombers, of late, have been Sunni Muslims. There are a lot of angry people in the world. Angry Mexicans. Angry Africans. Angry Norwegians. But the only ones who seem to feel entitled and motivated to kill themselves and totally innocent people, including other Muslims, over their anger are young Sunni radicals. What is going on? ... Clearly, several things are at work. One is that Europe is not a melting pot and has never adequately integrated its Muslim minorities, who, as The Financial Times put it, often find themselves 'cut off from their country, language and culture of origin' without being assimilated into Europe, making them easy prey for peddlers of a new jihadist identity. " http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/opinion/15friedman.html?hp July 15, 2005 A Poverty of Dignity and a Wealth of Rage By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN A few years ago I was visiting Bahrain and sitting with friends in a fish restaurant when news appeared on an overhead TV about Muslim terrorists, men and women, who had taken hostages in Russia. What struck me, though, was the instinctive reaction of the Bahraini businessman sitting next to me, who muttered under his breath, "Why are we in every story?" The "we" in question was Muslims. The answer to that question is one of the most important issues in geopolitics today: Why are young Sunni Muslim males, from London to Riyadh and Bali to Baghdad, so willing to blow up themselves and others in the name of their religion? Of course, not all Muslims are suicide bombers; it would be ludicrous to suggest that. But virtually all suicide bombers, of late, have been Sunni Muslims. There are a lot of angry people in the world. Angry Mexicans. Angry Africans. Angry Norwegians. But the only ones who seem to feel entitled and motivated to kill themselves and totally innocent people, including other Muslims, over their anger are young Sunni radicals. What is going on? Neither we nor the Muslim world can run away from this question any longer. This is especially true when it comes to people like Muhammad Bouyeri - a Dutch citizen of Moroccan origin who last year tracked down the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a critic of Islamic intolerance, on an Amsterdam street, shot him 15 times and slit his throat with a butcher knife. He told a Dutch court on the final day of his trial on Tuesday: "I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion." Clearly, several things are at work. One is that Europe is not a melting pot and has never adequately integrated its Muslim minorities, who, as The Financial Times put it, often find themselves "cut off from their country, language and culture of origin" without being assimilated into Europe, making them easy prey for peddlers of a new jihadist identity. Also at work is Sunni Islam's struggle with modernity. Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam. Islam's self-identity is that it is the authentic and ideal expression of monotheism. Muslims are raised with the view that Islam is God 3.0, Christianity is God 2.0, Judaism is God 1.0, and Hinduism is God 0.0. Part of what seems to be going on with these young Muslim males is that they are, on the one hand, tempted by Western society, and ashamed of being tempted. On the other hand, they are humiliated by Western society because while Sunni Islamic civilization is supposed to be superior, its decision to ban the reform and reinterpretation of Islam since the 12th century has choked the spirit of innovation out of Muslim lands, and left the Islamic world less powerful, less economically developed, less technically advanced than God 2.0, 1.0 and 0.0. "Some of these young Muslim men are tempted by a civilization they consider morally inferior, and they are humiliated by the fact that, while having been taught their faith is supreme, other civilizations seem to be doing much better," said Raymond Stock, the Cairo-based biographer and translator of Naguib Mahfouz. "When the inner conflict becomes too great, some are turned by recruiters to seek the sick prestige of 'martyrdom' by fighting the allegedly unjust occupation of Muslim lands and the 'decadence' in our own." This is not about the poverty of money. This is about the poverty of dignity and the rage it can trigger. One of the London bombers was married, with a young child and another on the way. I can understand, but never accept, suicide bombing in Iraq or Israel as part of a nationalist struggle. But when a British Muslim citizen, nurtured by that society, just indiscriminately blows up his neighbors and leaves behind a baby and pregnant wife, to me he has to be in the grip of a dangerous cult or preacher - dangerous to his faith community and to the world. How does that happen? Britain's Independent newspaper described one of the bombers, Hasib Hussain, as having recently undergone a sudden conversion "from a British Asian who dressed in Western clothes to a religious teenager who wore Islamic garb and only stopped to say salaam to fellow Muslims." The secret of this story is in that conversion - and so is the crisis in Islam. The people and ideas that brought about that sudden conversion of Hasib Hussain and his pals - if not stopped by other Muslims - will end up converting every Muslim into a suspect and one of the world's great religions into a cult of death. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From zero Fri Jul 15 13:01:27 2005 From: zero (Zee Roe) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Space mirrors. Message-ID: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> Feasibility: 1. :) How Earth-Scale Engineering Can Save the Planet Maybe we can have our fossil fuels and burn 'em too. These scientists have come up with a plan to end global warming. One idea: A 600,000-square-mile space mirror By Michael Behar | August 2005 David Keith never expected to get a summons from the White House. But in September 2001, officials with the President's Climate Change Technology Program invited him and more than two dozen other scientists to participate in a roundtable discussion called "Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change." While administration officials were insisting in public that there was no firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring potential ways to turn down the heat. Most of the world's industrialized nations had already vowed to combat global warming by reining in their emissions of carbon dioxide, the chief "greenhouse gas" blamed for trapping heat in Earth's atmosphere. But in March 2001 President George W. Bush had withdrawn U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol, the international treaty mandating limits on CO2 emissions, and asked his administration to begin studying other options. Keith, a physicist and economist in the chemical and petroleum engineering department at the University of Calgary, had for more than a decade been investigating strategies to curtail global warming. He and the other scientists at the meeting=97including physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who had spent a chunk of their careers designing nuclear weapons=97had come up with some ideas for "geoengineering" Earth's climate. What they proposed was tinkering on a global scale. "We already are inadvertently changing the climate, so why not advertently try to counterbalance it?" asks retired Lawrence Livermore physicist Michael MacCracken, a former senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program who helped organize the meeting. "If they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there would have been riots," Keith says. "Here were the bomb guys from Livermore talking about stuff that strikes most greens as being completely wrong and off-the-wall." But today, a growing number of physicists, oceanographers and climatologists around the world are seriously considering technologies for the deliberate manipulation of Earth's climate. Some advocate planetary air-conditioning devices such as orbiting space mirrors that deflect sunlight away from Earth, or ships that intensify cloud cover to block the sun's rays. Others are suggesting that we capture carbon dioxide=97from the air, from cars and power plants=97and stash it underground or react it with chemicals that turn it to stone. Carbon dioxide wasn't always public enemy number one. For the past 400,000 years, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has fluctuated between about 180 and 280 ppm (parts per million, the number of CO2 molecules per million molecules of air). But in the late 1800s, when humans set about burning fossil fuels in earnest, atmospheric CO2 began to increase with alarming speed=97from about 280 ppm to the current level of almost 380 ppm, in a scant 100 years. Experts predict that CO2 could climb as high as 500 ppm by 2050 and possibly twice that by the end of the century. As CO2 levels continue to rise, the planet will get hotter. "The question now," says Ken Caldeira, an atmospheric scientist at Lawrence Livermore and one of the world's leading authorities on climate change, "is what can we actually do about it?" Here are some of the geoengineering schemes under consideration. 1. Store CO2 Underground Feasibility: 10 Cost: $$ RISK: 4 In the southeastern corner of Saskatchewan, just outside the town of Weyburn=97the "Opportunity City"=97a steel pipeline descends 4,000 feet below the prairie at the edge of a 70-square-mile oil field. Into this subterranean cavern, petroleum engineers are pumping 5,000 tons of pressurized, liquefied carbon dioxide every day. The aim is twofold: Use high-pressure CO2 to drive oil from the porous rock in the reservoir to the surface, and trap the carbon dioxide underground. Welcome to the world's largest carbon-sequestering operation. Dubbed the Weyburn Project, it began in July 2000 as a partnership between EnCana, a Canadian oil and gas company, and Canada's Petroleum Technology Research Centre. With $13 million in funding from more than a dozen sponsors, including the U.S. Department of Energy, engineers have already socked away six million tons of carbon dioxide, roughly the amount produced by burning half a billion gallons of gasoline. The Timeline Unlike other geoengineering schemes, this one is already happening, with more than half a dozen major projects under way. The problem, says Howard Herzog, a principal research engineer at MIT's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, is that concentrated CO2 is in short supply. There's too much of the gas floating around in the air, but actually capturing, compressing, and transporting it costs money. In the U.S. and most other nations, there are no laws requiring fossil-fuel-burning power plants=97the primary source of CO2 emissions=97to capture a single molecule of the gas. The Promise By 2033, the Weyburn Project will store 25 million tons of carbon dioxide. "That's like taking 6.8 million cars off the road for one year," says project manager Mike Monea, "and this is just a pilot test in a small oil reservoir." Saline aquifers, giant pools of saltwater that have been trapped underground for millions of years, could hold even more CO2. Humans dump about 28 gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. Geologists estimate that underground reservoirs and saline aquifers could store as much as 200,000 gigatons. The Perils Before CO2 is injected into the ground, it's compressed into what's called a supercritical state=97it's extremely dense and viscous, and behaves more like a liquid than a gas. In this form, CO2 should remain trapped underground for thousands of years, if not indefinitely. The danger is if engineers accidentally "depressurize" an aquifer while probing for oil or natural gas. There's also a risk that carbon dioxide could escape slowly through natural fissures in subterranean rock and pool up in basements or cellars. "If you walked down into a basement [full of CO2]," Keith says, "you wouldn't smell it or see it, but it would kill you." 2. Filter CO2 from the air Feasibility: 4 Cost: $$$ RISK: 4 Klaus Lackner is accustomed to skeptics. They've doubted him since he first presented his idea for extracting carbon dioxide from ambient air in March 1999, at an international symposium on coal and fuel technology. "The reaction from everyone there was utter disbelief," recalls Lackner, a physicist with the Earth Engineering Center at Columbia University. He called for the construction of giant filters that would act like flypaper, trapping CO2 molecules as they drifted past in the wind. Sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide=97chemicals that bind with carbon dioxide=97would be pumped through the porous filters much the way antifreeze is circulated through a car's radiator. A secondary process would strip the CO2 from the binding chemical. The chemical would recirculate through the filter, while the CO2 would be set aside for disposal. The Timeline Lackner is collaborating with engineer Allen Wright, who founded Global Research Technologies in Tucson, Arizona. Wright is developing a wind-scrubber prototype but remains tight-lipped about the project. He estimates that a completed system is at least two years away. The Promise Wind scrubbers can be placed wherever it's convenient to capture carbon dioxide, so there's no need to transport it. Lackner calculates that a wind scrubber designed to retain 25 tons of CO2 per year=97the average amount each American adds to the atmosphere annually=97would require a device about the size of a large plasma- screen television. A single industrial-size wind scrubber about 200 feet high and 165 feet wide would snag about 90,000 tons of CO2 a year. The Perils Some experts are dubious about the ease of separating carbon dioxide from the binding chemical, a process that in itself would require energy from fossil fuels. "CO2 is so dilute in the air that to try to scrub from it, you have to pay too much for energy use," Herzog says. And to capture all the carbon dioxide being added to the atmosphere by humans, you'd need to blanket an area at least the size of Arizona with scrubber towers. 3.Fertilize the ocean Feasibility: 10 Cost: $ RISK: 9 On January 5, 2002, Revelle, a research vessel operated by the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, left New Zealand for the Southern Ocean=97a belt of frigid, stormy seas that separates Antarctica from the rest of the world. There the scientists dumped almost 6,000 pounds of iron powder overboard and unleashed an armada of instruments to gauge the results. The intent was to test a hypothesis put forth by oceanographer John Martin. At a lecture more than a decade ago, Martin declared: "Give me a half-tanker of iron, and I will give you an ice age." He was alluding to the fact that the Southern Ocean is packed with minerals and nutrients but strangely devoid of sea life. Martin had concluded that the ocean was anemic=97containing very little iron, an essential nutrient for plankton growth. Adding iron, Martin believed, would cool the planet by triggering blooms of CO2-consuming plankton. Oceanographer Kenneth Coale, who directs the Moss Landing Marine Laboratories near Monterey, California, was a chief scientist on the Southern Ocean cruise. He says the project was a success, proving that relatively small quantities of iron could spawn colossal blooms of plankton. The Timeline Scientists are wary, saying that too little is known about the deep- ocean environment to endorse further large-scale experiments. In October, Coale and other scientists will gather in New Zealand for a weeklong meeting sponsored by the National Science Foundation, New Zealand's National Institute for Water and Atmosphere, and the International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme to decide how to proceed. The Promise Iron fertilization is by far the cheapest and easiest way to mitigate carbon dioxide. Coale estimates that just one pound of iron could conceivably hatch enough plankton to sequester 100,000 pounds of CO2. "Even if the process is only 1 percent efficient, you just sequestered half a ton of carbon for a dime." The Perils "What is still a mystery," Coale says, "is the ripple effect on the rest of the ocean and the food chain." One fear is that huge plankton blooms, in addition to gorging on CO2, will devour other nutrients. Deep currents carry nutrient-rich water from the Southern Ocean northward to regions where fish rely on the nutrients to survive. Says Coale, "A fertilization event to take care of atmospheric CO2 could have the unintended consequence of turning the oceans sterile. Oops." 4. Turn CO2 to Stone Feasibility: 7 Cost: $$ RISK: 3 The Grand Canyon is one of the largest carbon dioxide repositories on Earth. Hundreds of millions of years ago, a vast sea covered the land there. The water, rich in carbon dioxide, slowly reacted with other chemicals to create calcium carbonate, or limestone=97the pinkish bands striping the canyon walls today. Nature's method for turning CO2 to stone is achingly slow, but researchers at the Goldwater Materials Science Laboratory at Arizona State University are working on a way to speed up the process. Michael McKelvy and Andrew Chizmeshya use serpentine or olivine, widely available and inexpensive minerals, as feedstock to fuel a chemical reaction that transforms CO2 into magnesium carbonate, a cousin of limestone. To initiate the reaction=97known as "mineral carbonation"=97the CO2 is compressed, heated, and mixed with feedstock and a catalyst, such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). The Timeline Scaling up the process to handle millions of tons of CO2 would require huge quantities of serpentine or olivine. A single mineral- carbonation plant would carve out a mountain, but, McKelvy says, "You could carbonate [the CO2] and put it right back where the feedstock came from." The Promise Mineral carbonation is simply an accelerated version of a benign natural process. The limestone in the Grand Canyon is 500 feet thick, McKelvy says, "and it has been sitting there not bothering anybody for millennia." The Perils It costs roughly $70 to eliminate one ton of CO2, a price that McKelvy says is too high. Also, the feedstock and CO2 must be heated to high temperatures. "You wind up having to burn fossil fuels in order to provide the energy to activate the mineral to put away the CO2," he says. 5. Enhance Clouds to Reflect Sunlight Feasibility: 6 Cost: $$ RISK: 7 Some proposed solutions to global warming don't involve capturing carbon dioxide. Instead they focus on turning down the heat by deflecting or filtering incoming sunlight. On any given day, marine stratocumulus clouds blanket about one third of the world's oceans, mostly around the tropics. Clouds form when water vapor clings to dust or other particles, creating droplets. Seeding clouds with tiny salt particles would enable more droplets to form=97making the clouds whiter and therefore more reflective. According to physicist John Latham, a senior research associate at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, boosting reflectivity, or albedo, in just 3 percent of marine stratocumulus clouds would reflect enough sunlight to curb global warming. "It would be like a mirror for incoming solar radiation," Latham explains. Latham is collaborating with Stephen Salter, an emeritus professor of engineering design at the University of Edinburgh, who is making sketches for GPS-steered wind- powered boats that would cruise the tropical latitudes, churning up salt spray. "I am planning a flotilla of unmanned yachts sailing backward and forward across the wind," Salter says. "They would drag propellers through the water to generate electricity, which we'd use to make the spray." Salter wants to outfit each boat with four 60-foot-tall Flettner rotors, which look like smokestacks but act like sails. An electric motor starts each rotor spinning, which, along with the wind, creates a pressure differential (less pressure in front of the rotor, more in back), generating forward thrust. From the top of the rotor, an impeller would blast a fine saltwater mist into the air. Until the concept is tested, Salter isn't sure exactly how many ships would be needed to mitigate global warming. "Maybe between 5,000 and 30,000," he says. That may sound like a lot, but Salter notes that for World War II, the U.S. built nearly 100,000 aircraft in 1944 alone. The Timeline Latham initially raised the notion in a 1990 paper. "The article went down like a lead balloon," he says. But early last year in England, at a geoengineering conference hosted by MIT and the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, he presented the concept again. "The consensus was that a number of ideas originally thought to be outlandish were deemed sufficiently plausible to be supported further. Our work fell into that category." Latham needs a few million dollars to test his idea. "On the scale of the damage that will be caused by global warming, that is utterly peanuts." The Promise What's nice about this idea is that it can easily be fine-tuned. "If we tried it and there was some deleterious effect, we could switch it off, and within four or five days all evidence would have disappeared," Latham says. The Perils One worry is that although the tiny salt particles released by evaporating sea mist are perfect for marine stratocumulus-cloud formation, they are too small to create rain clouds. "You might make it harder for rain to form," Salter says. "Therefore, you would not want to do this upwind of a place where there is a bad drought." 6. Deflect Sunlight With A Mirror Feasibility: 1 Cost: $$$$ RISK: 5 One of the most ambitious schemes is a giant space "mirror" positioned between the Earth and sun to intercept sunlight. To build the mirror, physicist Lowell Wood, a senior staff scientist at Lawrence Livermore, proposes using a mesh of aluminum threads that are only a millionth of an inch in diameter and a thousandth of an inch apart. "It would be like a window screen made of exceedingly fine metal wire," he explains. The screen wouldn't actually block the light but would simply filter it so that some of the incoming infrared radiation wouldn't reach Earth's atmosphere. The Timeline Wood, who has been researching the mirror idea for more than a decade, says it should be considered only as a safety net if all other means of reversing global warming "fail or fall grossly short over the next few decades." The Promise Once in place, the mirror would cost almost nothing to operate. From Earth, it would look like a tiny black spot on the sun. "People really wouldn't see it," says Michael MacCracken. And plant photosynthesis isn't expected to be affected by the slight reduction in sunlight. The Perils Wood calculates that deflecting 1 percent of incoming solar radiation would stabilize the climate, but doing so would require a mirror spanning roughly 600,000 square miles=97or several smaller ones. Putting something that size in orbit would be a massive challenge, not to mention exorbitantly expensive. From deafbox Fri Jul 15 14:04:02 2005 From: deafbox (Russell Turpin) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [fauxever@sprynet.com: [extropy-chat] Poverty of Dignity] In-Reply-To: <20050715145716.GD4317@leitl.org> Message-ID: Thomas Friedman: >What struck me, though, was the instinctive reaction >of the Bahraini businessman sitting next to me, who >muttered under his breath, "Why are we in every story?" The "we" in >question was Muslims. The obvious response is that belonging to that group is entirely voluntary. I wonder if such events cause even a few Muslims to question their faith? I doubt very many. That might be the scariest thing of all. From dave.long Sat Jul 16 05:59:25 2005 From: dave.long (Dave Long) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <20050715190007.0690515DC6A0@xent.com> References: <20050715190007.0690515DC6A0@xent.com> Message-ID: <30ECA907-F5F9-11D9-AC88-001124785D62@bluewin.ch> 1/ For those of you resident in NA who'd like sodas bottled with real sugar, I suggest Hawaii. 2/ In Switzerland, the McDo's place buckets next to the trash cans, in which one can dump the excessive soda that came with the meal. (3dl is a fair sized drink, by the local standards. Supersize, I think, would be more than 12dl...) -Dave :: :: :: how many metric beers in a 24? From sdw Sat Jul 16 15:18:09 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Space mirrors. In-Reply-To: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <42D987CF.6080405@lig.net> This was from Popular Science this month. I looked for an electronic version and didn't find it; thanks! The specific space mirror proposal was interesting, but not the only method and possibly not the most feasible method. sdw Zee Roe wrote: >Feasibility: 1. :) > > > >How Earth-Scale Engineering Can Save the Planet > >Maybe we can have our fossil fuels and burn 'em too. These >scientists have come up with a plan to end global warming. One idea: >A 600,000-square-mile space mirror > >By Michael Behar | August 2005 > >David Keith never expected to get a summons from the White House. >But in September 2001, officials with the President's Climate Change >Technology Program invited him and more than two dozen other >scientists to participate in a roundtable discussion >called "Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change." While >administration officials were insisting in public that there was no >firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring >potential ways to turn down the heat. >Most of the world's industrialized nations had already vowed to >combat global warming by reining in their emissions of carbon >dioxide, the chief "greenhouse gas" blamed for trapping heat in >Earth's atmosphere. But in March 2001 President George W. Bush had >withdrawn U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol, the international >treaty mandating limits on CO2 emissions, and asked his >administration to begin studying other options. > >Keith, a physicist and economist in the chemical and petroleum >engineering department at the University of Calgary, had for more >than a decade been investigating strategies to curtail global >warming. He and the other scientists at the meeting?including >physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who had spent >a chunk of their careers designing nuclear weapons?had come up with >some ideas for "geoengineering" Earth's climate. What they proposed >was tinkering on a global scale. "We already are inadvertently >changing the climate, so why not advertently try to counterbalance >it?" asks retired Lawrence Livermore physicist Michael MacCracken, a >former senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program >who helped organize the meeting. > >"If they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there >would have been riots," Keith says. "Here were the bomb guys from >Livermore talking about stuff that strikes most greens as being >completely wrong and off-the-wall." But today, a growing number of >physicists, oceanographers and climatologists around the world are >seriously considering technologies for the deliberate manipulation >of Earth's climate. Some advocate planetary air-conditioning devices >such as orbiting space mirrors that deflect sunlight away from >Earth, or ships that intensify cloud cover to block the sun's rays. >Others are suggesting that we capture carbon dioxide?from the air, >from cars and power plants?and stash it underground or react it with >chemicals that turn it to stone. > > > >Carbon dioxide wasn't always public enemy number one. For the past >400,000 years, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has >fluctuated between about 180 and 280 ppm (parts per million, the >number of CO2 molecules per million molecules of air). But in the >late 1800s, when humans set about burning fossil fuels in earnest, >atmospheric CO2 began to increase with alarming speed?from about 280 >ppm to the current level of almost 380 ppm, in a scant 100 years. >Experts predict that CO2 could climb as high as 500 ppm by 2050 and >possibly twice that by the end of the century. As CO2 levels >continue to rise, the planet will get hotter. "The question now," >says Ken Caldeira, an atmospheric scientist at Lawrence Livermore >and one of the world's leading authorities on climate change, "is >what can we actually do about it?" Here are some of the >geoengineering schemes under consideration. > >1. Store CO2 Underground >Feasibility: 10 >Cost: $$ >RISK: 4 >In the southeastern corner of Saskatchewan, just outside the town of >Weyburn?the "Opportunity City"?a steel pipeline descends 4,000 feet >below the prairie at the edge of a 70-square-mile oil field. Into >this subterranean cavern, petroleum engineers are pumping 5,000 tons >of pressurized, liquefied carbon dioxide every day. The aim is >twofold: Use high-pressure CO2 to drive oil from the porous rock in >the reservoir to the surface, and trap the carbon dioxide >underground. >Welcome to the world's largest carbon-sequestering operation. Dubbed >the Weyburn Project, it began in July 2000 as a partnership between >EnCana, a Canadian oil and gas company, and Canada's Petroleum >Technology Research Centre. With $13 million in funding from more >than a dozen sponsors, including the U.S. Department of Energy, >engineers have already socked away six million tons of carbon >dioxide, roughly the amount produced by burning half a billion >gallons of gasoline. > >The Timeline >Unlike other geoengineering schemes, this one is already happening, >with more than half a dozen major projects under way. The problem, >says Howard Herzog, a principal research engineer at MIT's >Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, is that concentrated CO2 >is in short supply. There's too much of the gas floating around in >the air, but actually capturing, compressing, and transporting it >costs money. In the U.S. and most other nations, there are no laws >requiring fossil-fuel-burning power plants?the primary source of CO2 >emissions?to capture a single molecule of the gas. > >The Promise >By 2033, the Weyburn Project will store 25 million tons of carbon >dioxide. "That's like taking 6.8 million cars off the road for one >year," says project manager Mike Monea, "and this is just a pilot >test in a small oil reservoir." Saline aquifers, giant pools of >saltwater that have been trapped underground for millions of years, >could hold even more CO2. Humans dump about 28 gigatons of CO2 into >the atmosphere every year. Geologists estimate that underground >reservoirs and saline aquifers could store as much as 200,000 >gigatons. > >The Perils >Before CO2 is injected into the ground, it's compressed into what's >called a supercritical state?it's extremely dense and viscous, and >behaves more like a liquid than a gas. In this form, CO2 should >remain trapped underground for thousands of years, if not >indefinitely. The danger is if engineers accidentally "depressurize" >an aquifer while probing for oil or natural gas. There's also a risk >that carbon dioxide could escape slowly through natural fissures in >subterranean rock and pool up in basements or cellars. "If you >walked down into a basement [full of CO2]," Keith says, "you >wouldn't smell it or see it, but it would kill you." > >2. Filter CO2 from the air >Feasibility: 4 >Cost: $$$ >RISK: 4 >Klaus Lackner is accustomed to skeptics. They've doubted him since >he first presented his idea for extracting carbon dioxide from >ambient air in March 1999, at an international symposium on coal and >fuel technology. "The reaction from everyone there was utter >disbelief," recalls Lackner, a physicist with the Earth Engineering >Center at Columbia University. > >He called for the construction of giant filters that would act like >flypaper, trapping CO2 molecules as they drifted past in the wind. >Sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide?chemicals that bind with >carbon dioxide?would be pumped through the porous filters much the >way antifreeze is circulated through a car's radiator. A secondary >process would strip the CO2 from the binding chemical. The chemical >would recirculate through the filter, while the CO2 would be set >aside for disposal. > >The Timeline >Lackner is collaborating with engineer Allen Wright, who founded >Global Research Technologies in Tucson, Arizona. Wright is >developing a wind-scrubber prototype but remains tight-lipped about >the project. He estimates that a completed system is at least two >years away. > >The Promise >Wind scrubbers can be placed wherever it's convenient to capture >carbon dioxide, so there's no need to transport it. Lackner >calculates that a wind scrubber designed to retain 25 tons of CO2 >per year?the average amount each American adds to the atmosphere >annually?would require a device about the size of a large plasma- >screen television. A single industrial-size wind scrubber about 200 >feet high and 165 feet wide would snag about 90,000 tons of CO2 a >year. > >The Perils >Some experts are dubious about the ease of separating carbon dioxide >from the binding chemical, a process that in itself would require >energy from fossil fuels. "CO2 is so dilute in the air that to try >to scrub from it, you have to pay too much for energy use," Herzog >says. And to capture all the carbon dioxide being added to the >atmosphere by humans, you'd need to blanket an area at least the >size of Arizona with scrubber towers. > >3.Fertilize the ocean >Feasibility: 10 >Cost: $ >RISK: 9 >On January 5, 2002, Revelle, a research vessel operated by the >Scripps Institution of Oceanography, left New Zealand for the >Southern Ocean?a belt of frigid, stormy seas that separates >Antarctica from the rest of the world. There the scientists dumped >almost 6,000 pounds of iron powder overboard and unleashed an armada >of instruments to gauge the results. >The intent was to test a hypothesis put forth by oceanographer John >Martin. At a lecture more than a decade ago, Martin declared: "Give >me a half-tanker of iron, and I will give you an ice age." He was >alluding to the fact that the Southern Ocean is packed with minerals >and nutrients but strangely devoid of sea life. Martin had concluded >that the ocean was anemic?containing very little iron, an essential >nutrient for plankton growth. Adding iron, Martin believed, would >cool the planet by triggering blooms of CO2-consuming plankton. > >Oceanographer Kenneth Coale, who directs the Moss Landing Marine >Laboratories near Monterey, California, was a chief scientist on the >Southern Ocean cruise. He says the project was a success, proving >that relatively small quantities of iron could spawn colossal blooms >of plankton. > >The Timeline >Scientists are wary, saying that too little is known about the deep- >ocean environment to endorse further large-scale experiments. In >October, Coale and other scientists will gather in New Zealand for a >weeklong meeting sponsored by the National Science Foundation, New >Zealand's National Institute for Water and Atmosphere, and the >International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme to decide how to proceed. > >The Promise >Iron fertilization is by far the cheapest and easiest way to >mitigate carbon dioxide. Coale estimates that just one pound of iron >could conceivably hatch enough plankton to sequester 100,000 pounds >of CO2. "Even if the process is only 1 percent efficient, you just >sequestered half a ton of carbon for a dime." > >The Perils >"What is still a mystery," Coale says, "is the ripple effect on the >rest of the ocean and the food chain." One fear is that huge >plankton blooms, in addition to gorging on CO2, will devour other >nutrients. Deep currents carry nutrient-rich water from the Southern >Ocean northward to regions where fish rely on the nutrients to >survive. Says Coale, "A fertilization event to take care of >atmospheric CO2 could have the unintended consequence of turning the >oceans sterile. Oops." > >4. Turn CO2 to Stone >Feasibility: 7 >Cost: $$ >RISK: 3 >The Grand Canyon is one of the largest carbon dioxide repositories >on Earth. Hundreds of millions of years ago, a vast sea covered the >land there. The water, rich in carbon dioxide, slowly reacted with >other chemicals to create calcium carbonate, or limestone?the >pinkish bands striping the canyon walls today. > >Nature's method for turning CO2 to stone is achingly slow, but >researchers at the Goldwater Materials Science Laboratory at Arizona >State University are working on a way to speed up the process. >Michael McKelvy and Andrew Chizmeshya use serpentine or olivine, >widely available and inexpensive minerals, as feedstock to fuel a >chemical reaction that transforms CO2 into magnesium carbonate, a >cousin of limestone. To initiate the reaction?known as "mineral >carbonation"?the CO2 is compressed, heated, and mixed with feedstock >and a catalyst, such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). > >The Timeline >Scaling up the process to handle millions of tons of CO2 would >require huge quantities of serpentine or olivine. A single mineral- >carbonation plant would carve out a mountain, but, McKelvy >says, "You could carbonate [the CO2] and put it right back where the >feedstock came from." > >The Promise >Mineral carbonation is simply an accelerated version of a benign >natural process. The limestone in the Grand Canyon is 500 feet >thick, McKelvy says, "and it has been sitting there not bothering >anybody for millennia." > >The Perils >It costs roughly $70 to eliminate one ton of CO2, a price that >McKelvy says is too high. Also, the feedstock and CO2 must be heated >to high temperatures. "You wind up having to burn fossil fuels in >order to provide the energy to activate the mineral to put away the >CO2," he says. > > > >5. Enhance Clouds to Reflect Sunlight >Feasibility: 6 >Cost: $$ >RISK: 7 >Some proposed solutions to global warming don't involve capturing >carbon dioxide. Instead they focus on turning down the heat by >deflecting or filtering incoming sunlight. >On any given day, marine stratocumulus clouds blanket about one >third of the world's oceans, mostly around the tropics. Clouds form >when water vapor clings to dust or other particles, creating >droplets. Seeding clouds with tiny salt particles would enable more >droplets to form?making the clouds whiter and therefore more >reflective. According to physicist John Latham, a senior research >associate at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in >Boulder, Colorado, boosting reflectivity, or albedo, in just 3 >percent of marine stratocumulus clouds would reflect enough sunlight >to curb global warming. "It would be like a mirror for incoming >solar radiation," Latham explains. > >Latham is collaborating with Stephen Salter, an emeritus professor >of engineering design at the University of Edinburgh, who is making >sketches for GPS-steered wind- powered boats that would cruise the >tropical latitudes, churning up salt spray. "I am planning a >flotilla of unmanned yachts sailing backward and forward across the >wind," Salter says. "They would drag propellers through the water to >generate electricity, which we'd use to make the spray." > >Salter wants to outfit each boat with four 60-foot-tall Flettner >rotors, which look like smokestacks but act like sails. An electric >motor starts each rotor spinning, which, along with the wind, >creates a pressure differential (less pressure in front of the >rotor, more in back), generating forward thrust. From the top of the >rotor, an impeller would blast a fine saltwater mist into the air. > >Until the concept is tested, Salter isn't sure exactly how many >ships would be needed to mitigate global warming. "Maybe between >5,000 and 30,000," he says. That may sound like a lot, but Salter >notes that for World War II, the U.S. built nearly 100,000 aircraft >in 1944 alone. > >The Timeline >Latham initially raised the notion in a 1990 paper. "The article >went down like a lead balloon," he says. But early last year in >England, at a geoengineering conference hosted by MIT and the >Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, he presented the concept >again. "The consensus was that a number of ideas originally thought >to be outlandish were deemed sufficiently plausible to be supported >further. Our work fell into that category." Latham needs a few >million dollars to test his idea. "On the scale of the damage that >will be caused by global warming, that is utterly peanuts." > >The Promise >What's nice about this idea is that it can easily be fine-tuned. "If >we tried it and there was some deleterious effect, we could switch >it off, and within four or five days all evidence would have >disappeared," Latham says. > >The Perils >One worry is that although the tiny salt particles released by >evaporating sea mist are perfect for marine stratocumulus-cloud >formation, they are too small to create rain clouds. "You might make >it harder for rain to form," Salter says. "Therefore, you would not >want to do this upwind of a place where there is a bad drought." > >6. Deflect Sunlight With A Mirror >Feasibility: 1 >Cost: $$$$ >RISK: 5 >One of the most ambitious schemes is a giant space "mirror" >positioned between the Earth and sun to intercept sunlight. To build >the mirror, physicist Lowell Wood, a senior staff scientist at >Lawrence Livermore, proposes using a mesh of aluminum threads that >are only a millionth of an inch in diameter and a thousandth of an >inch apart. "It would be like a window screen made of exceedingly >fine metal wire," he explains. The screen wouldn't actually block >the light but would simply filter it so that some of the incoming >infrared radiation wouldn't reach Earth's atmosphere. > >The Timeline >Wood, who has been researching the mirror idea for more than a >decade, says it should be considered only as a safety net if all >other means of reversing global warming "fail or fall grossly short >over the next few decades." > >The Promise >Once in place, the mirror would cost almost nothing to operate. From >Earth, it would look like a tiny black spot on the sun. "People >really wouldn't see it," says Michael MacCracken. And plant >photosynthesis isn't expected to be affected by the slight reduction >in sunlight. > >The Perils >Wood calculates that deflecting 1 percent of incoming solar >radiation would stabilize the climate, but doing so would require a >mirror spanning roughly 600,000 square miles?or several smaller >ones. Putting something that size in orbit would be a massive >challenge, not to mention exorbitantly expensive. > > > > >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From fork Sat Jul 16 16:01:36 2005 From: fork (Damien Morton) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Space mirrors. In-Reply-To: <42D987CF.6080405@lig.net> References: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> <42D987CF.6080405@lig.net> Message-ID: <42D991C8.8050105@bitfurnace.com> When I was a kid, I dreamed of being an Astronaut. I was old enough to watch the first landing on the moon, and was pripping my seat during Apollo 13. I saw the first shuttle go up, and ive seen shuttles come down. I love space. When I read about solar power satelites and microwave downlinks, or I hear about space mirrors, I worry. These are weapons. Incontrovertably. I ask myself - whats wrong with terrestrial solar power - it has no weapons potential, is entirely passive, and apart from any industrial effluent in the production of the cells, has no environmental impact apart from using up at lot of land, the most suitable of which is the most least humanly useable. And when it comes to space mirrors mitigating greenhouse effects - I ask myself - whats wrong with fixing the bloody problem instead of an enormous engineering effort to fix the symptoms. So... I love space, but given the cost of putting up a 1 tonne satelite into low orbit, including the environmental cost of a single launch, its seems eminently stupid to suggest that putting multiple thousand tonnes of solar power satelites and/or space mirrors into high orbit will solve our environmental or energy problems, not to mention the security problems that putting enormous frikken directed energy weapons over our heads will cause. Space advocates simply do themselves a disservice going down this road. Here's a simple solution. Every time the price of gas rises, institute a tax to ensure that it doesnt fall again. That tax revenue then gets directed to subsidising alternative power sources and energy consumption and generation efficiency measures, essentially legislating fossil fuel slowly out of existance. Everyone gains - the alternate power people get assurance that fossil fuels will never go down in price, as well as bonuses when they do. The fossil fuel people, gain no incentives to reduce their prices or increase their production efficiency or output. Lets face it - fossil fuels were a bad decision - but they were the only decision we had. Now we know better, and we have other choices, so the quicker we ditch them, the better. As far as space goes, well, until we get space elevators, or some other to-orbit system that doesnt rely on ejecting millions of pounds of chemical-combustion exhaust into the atmosphere to lift a relatively small payload, we will should stick to throwing barrel-sized probes and toy trucks at other planets. > This was from Popular Science this month. I looked for an electronic > version and didn't find it; thanks! > > The specific space mirror proposal was interesting, but not the only > method and possibly not the most feasible method. > > sdw > > Zee Roe wrote: > >> Feasibility: 1. :) >> >> >> >> How Earth-Scale Engineering Can Save the Planet >> >> Maybe we can have our fossil fuels and burn 'em too. These >> scientists have come up with a plan to end global warming. One idea: >> A 600,000-square-mile space mirror >> >> By Michael Behar | August 2005 >> >> David Keith never expected to get a summons from the White House. >> But in September 2001, officials with the President's Climate Change >> Technology Program invited him and more than two dozen other >> scientists to participate in a roundtable discussion >> called "Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change." While >> administration officials were insisting in public that there was no >> firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring >> potential ways to turn down the heat. >> Most of the world's industrialized nations had already vowed to >> combat global warming by reining in their emissions of carbon >> dioxide, the chief "greenhouse gas" blamed for trapping heat in >> Earth's atmosphere. But in March 2001 President George W. Bush had >> withdrawn U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol, the international >> treaty mandating limits on CO2 emissions, and asked his >> administration to begin studying other options. >> >> Keith, a physicist and economist in the chemical and petroleum >> engineering department at the University of Calgary, had for more >> than a decade been investigating strategies to curtail global >> warming. He and the other scientists at the meeting?including >> physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who had spent >> a chunk of their careers designing nuclear weapons?had come up with >> some ideas for "geoengineering" Earth's climate. What they proposed >> was tinkering on a global scale. "We already are inadvertently >> changing the climate, so why not advertently try to counterbalance >> it?" asks retired Lawrence Livermore physicist Michael MacCracken, a >> former senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program >> who helped organize the meeting. >> >> "If they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there >> would have been riots," Keith says. "Here were the bomb guys from >> Livermore talking about stuff that strikes most greens as being >> completely wrong and off-the-wall." But today, a growing number of >> physicists, oceanographers and climatologists around the world are >> seriously considering technologies for the deliberate manipulation >> of Earth's climate. Some advocate planetary air-conditioning devices >> such as orbiting space mirrors that deflect sunlight away from >> Earth, or ships that intensify cloud cover to block the sun's rays. >> Others are suggesting that we capture carbon dioxide?from the air, >> from cars and power plants?and stash it underground or react it with >> chemicals that turn it to stone. >> >> >> >> Carbon dioxide wasn't always public enemy number one. For the past >> 400,000 years, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has >> fluctuated between about 180 and 280 ppm (parts per million, the >> number of CO2 molecules per million molecules of air). But in the >> late 1800s, when humans set about burning fossil fuels in earnest, >> atmospheric CO2 began to increase with alarming speed?from about 280 >> ppm to the current level of almost 380 ppm, in a scant 100 years. >> Experts predict that CO2 could climb as high as 500 ppm by 2050 and >> possibly twice that by the end of the century. As CO2 levels >> continue to rise, the planet will get hotter. "The question now," >> says Ken Caldeira, an atmospheric scientist at Lawrence Livermore >> and one of the world's leading authorities on climate change, "is >> what can we actually do about it?" Here are some of the >> geoengineering schemes under consideration. >> >> 1. Store CO2 Underground >> Feasibility: 10 >> Cost: $$ >> RISK: 4 >> In the southeastern corner of Saskatchewan, just outside the town of >> Weyburn?the "Opportunity City"?a steel pipeline descends 4,000 feet >> below the prairie at the edge of a 70-square-mile oil field. Into >> this subterranean cavern, petroleum engineers are pumping 5,000 tons >> of pressurized, liquefied carbon dioxide every day. The aim is >> twofold: Use high-pressure CO2 to drive oil from the porous rock in >> the reservoir to the surface, and trap the carbon dioxide >> underground. >> Welcome to the world's largest carbon-sequestering operation. Dubbed >> the Weyburn Project, it began in July 2000 as a partnership between >> EnCana, a Canadian oil and gas company, and Canada's Petroleum >> Technology Research Centre. With $13 million in funding from more >> than a dozen sponsors, including the U.S. Department of Energy, >> engineers have already socked away six million tons of carbon >> dioxide, roughly the amount produced by burning half a billion >> gallons of gasoline. >> >> The Timeline >> Unlike other geoengineering schemes, this one is already happening, >> with more than half a dozen major projects under way. The problem, >> says Howard Herzog, a principal research engineer at MIT's >> Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, is that concentrated CO2 >> is in short supply. There's too much of the gas floating around in >> the air, but actually capturing, compressing, and transporting it >> costs money. In the U.S. and most other nations, there are no laws >> requiring fossil-fuel-burning power plants?the primary source of CO2 >> emissions?to capture a single molecule of the gas. >> >> The Promise >> By 2033, the Weyburn Project will store 25 million tons of carbon >> dioxide. "That's like taking 6.8 million cars off the road for one >> year," says project manager Mike Monea, "and this is just a pilot >> test in a small oil reservoir." Saline aquifers, giant pools of >> saltwater that have been trapped underground for millions of years, >> could hold even more CO2. Humans dump about 28 gigatons of CO2 into >> the atmosphere every year. Geologists estimate that underground >> reservoirs and saline aquifers could store as much as 200,000 >> gigatons. >> >> The Perils >> Before CO2 is injected into the ground, it's compressed into what's >> called a supercritical state?it's extremely dense and viscous, and >> behaves more like a liquid than a gas. In this form, CO2 should >> remain trapped underground for thousands of years, if not >> indefinitely. The danger is if engineers accidentally "depressurize" >> an aquifer while probing for oil or natural gas. There's also a risk >> that carbon dioxide could escape slowly through natural fissures in >> subterranean rock and pool up in basements or cellars. "If you >> walked down into a basement [full of CO2]," Keith says, "you >> wouldn't smell it or see it, but it would kill you." >> >> 2. Filter CO2 from the air >> Feasibility: 4 >> Cost: $$$ >> RISK: 4 >> Klaus Lackner is accustomed to skeptics. They've doubted him since >> he first presented his idea for extracting carbon dioxide from >> ambient air in March 1999, at an international symposium on coal and >> fuel technology. "The reaction from everyone there was utter >> disbelief," recalls Lackner, a physicist with the Earth Engineering >> Center at Columbia University. >> >> He called for the construction of giant filters that would act like >> flypaper, trapping CO2 molecules as they drifted past in the wind. >> Sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide?chemicals that bind with >> carbon dioxide?would be pumped through the porous filters much the >> way antifreeze is circulated through a car's radiator. A secondary >> process would strip the CO2 from the binding chemical. The chemical >> would recirculate through the filter, while the CO2 would be set >> aside for disposal. >> >> The Timeline >> Lackner is collaborating with engineer Allen Wright, who founded >> Global Research Technologies in Tucson, Arizona. Wright is >> developing a wind-scrubber prototype but remains tight-lipped about >> the project. He estimates that a completed system is at least two >> years away. >> >> The Promise >> Wind scrubbers can be placed wherever it's convenient to capture >> carbon dioxide, so there's no need to transport it. Lackner >> calculates that a wind scrubber designed to retain 25 tons of CO2 >> per year?the average amount each American adds to the atmosphere >> annually?would require a device about the size of a large plasma- >> screen television. A single industrial-size wind scrubber about 200 >> feet high and 165 feet wide would snag about 90,000 tons of CO2 a >> year. >> >> The Perils >> Some experts are dubious about the ease of separating carbon dioxide >> from the binding chemical, a process that in itself would require >> energy from fossil fuels. "CO2 is so dilute in the air that to try >> to scrub from it, you have to pay too much for energy use," Herzog >> says. And to capture all the carbon dioxide being added to the >> atmosphere by humans, you'd need to blanket an area at least the >> size of Arizona with scrubber towers. >> >> 3.Fertilize the ocean >> Feasibility: 10 >> Cost: $ >> RISK: 9 >> On January 5, 2002, Revelle, a research vessel operated by the >> Scripps Institution of Oceanography, left New Zealand for the >> Southern Ocean?a belt of frigid, stormy seas that separates >> Antarctica from the rest of the world. There the scientists dumped >> almost 6,000 pounds of iron powder overboard and unleashed an armada >> of instruments to gauge the results. >> The intent was to test a hypothesis put forth by oceanographer John >> Martin. At a lecture more than a decade ago, Martin declared: "Give >> me a half-tanker of iron, and I will give you an ice age." He was >> alluding to the fact that the Southern Ocean is packed with minerals >> and nutrients but strangely devoid of sea life. Martin had concluded >> that the ocean was anemic?containing very little iron, an essential >> nutrient for plankton growth. Adding iron, Martin believed, would >> cool the planet by triggering blooms of CO2-consuming plankton. >> >> Oceanographer Kenneth Coale, who directs the Moss Landing Marine >> Laboratories near Monterey, California, was a chief scientist on the >> Southern Ocean cruise. He says the project was a success, proving >> that relatively small quantities of iron could spawn colossal blooms >> of plankton. >> >> The Timeline >> Scientists are wary, saying that too little is known about the deep- >> ocean environment to endorse further large-scale experiments. In >> October, Coale and other scientists will gather in New Zealand for a >> weeklong meeting sponsored by the National Science Foundation, New >> Zealand's National Institute for Water and Atmosphere, and the >> International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme to decide how to proceed. >> >> The Promise >> Iron fertilization is by far the cheapest and easiest way to >> mitigate carbon dioxide. Coale estimates that just one pound of iron >> could conceivably hatch enough plankton to sequester 100,000 pounds >> of CO2. "Even if the process is only 1 percent efficient, you just >> sequestered half a ton of carbon for a dime." >> >> The Perils >> "What is still a mystery," Coale says, "is the ripple effect on the >> rest of the ocean and the food chain." One fear is that huge >> plankton blooms, in addition to gorging on CO2, will devour other >> nutrients. Deep currents carry nutrient-rich water from the Southern >> Ocean northward to regions where fish rely on the nutrients to >> survive. Says Coale, "A fertilization event to take care of >> atmospheric CO2 could have the unintended consequence of turning the >> oceans sterile. Oops." >> >> 4. Turn CO2 to Stone >> Feasibility: 7 >> Cost: $$ >> RISK: 3 >> The Grand Canyon is one of the largest carbon dioxide repositories >> on Earth. Hundreds of millions of years ago, a vast sea covered the >> land there. The water, rich in carbon dioxide, slowly reacted with >> other chemicals to create calcium carbonate, or limestone?the >> pinkish bands striping the canyon walls today. >> >> Nature's method for turning CO2 to stone is achingly slow, but >> researchers at the Goldwater Materials Science Laboratory at Arizona >> State University are working on a way to speed up the process. >> Michael McKelvy and Andrew Chizmeshya use serpentine or olivine, >> widely available and inexpensive minerals, as feedstock to fuel a >> chemical reaction that transforms CO2 into magnesium carbonate, a >> cousin of limestone. To initiate the reaction?known as "mineral >> carbonation"?the CO2 is compressed, heated, and mixed with feedstock >> and a catalyst, such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). >> >> The Timeline >> Scaling up the process to handle millions of tons of CO2 would >> require huge quantities of serpentine or olivine. A single mineral- >> carbonation plant would carve out a mountain, but, McKelvy >> says, "You could carbonate [the CO2] and put it right back where the >> feedstock came from." >> >> The Promise >> Mineral carbonation is simply an accelerated version of a benign >> natural process. The limestone in the Grand Canyon is 500 feet >> thick, McKelvy says, "and it has been sitting there not bothering >> anybody for millennia." >> >> The Perils >> It costs roughly $70 to eliminate one ton of CO2, a price that >> McKelvy says is too high. Also, the feedstock and CO2 must be heated >> to high temperatures. "You wind up having to burn fossil fuels in >> order to provide the energy to activate the mineral to put away the >> CO2," he says. >> >> >> >> 5. Enhance Clouds to Reflect Sunlight >> Feasibility: 6 >> Cost: $$ >> RISK: 7 >> Some proposed solutions to global warming don't involve capturing >> carbon dioxide. Instead they focus on turning down the heat by >> deflecting or filtering incoming sunlight. >> On any given day, marine stratocumulus clouds blanket about one >> third of the world's oceans, mostly around the tropics. Clouds form >> when water vapor clings to dust or other particles, creating >> droplets. Seeding clouds with tiny salt particles would enable more >> droplets to form?making the clouds whiter and therefore more >> reflective. According to physicist John Latham, a senior research >> associate at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in >> Boulder, Colorado, boosting reflectivity, or albedo, in just 3 >> percent of marine stratocumulus clouds would reflect enough sunlight >> to curb global warming. "It would be like a mirror for incoming >> solar radiation," Latham explains. >> >> Latham is collaborating with Stephen Salter, an emeritus professor >> of engineering design at the University of Edinburgh, who is making >> sketches for GPS-steered wind- powered boats that would cruise the >> tropical latitudes, churning up salt spray. "I am planning a >> flotilla of unmanned yachts sailing backward and forward across the >> wind," Salter says. "They would drag propellers through the water to >> generate electricity, which we'd use to make the spray." >> >> Salter wants to outfit each boat with four 60-foot-tall Flettner >> rotors, which look like smokestacks but act like sails. An electric >> motor starts each rotor spinning, which, along with the wind, >> creates a pressure differential (less pressure in front of the >> rotor, more in back), generating forward thrust. From the top of the >> rotor, an impeller would blast a fine saltwater mist into the air. >> >> Until the concept is tested, Salter isn't sure exactly how many >> ships would be needed to mitigate global warming. "Maybe between >> 5,000 and 30,000," he says. That may sound like a lot, but Salter >> notes that for World War II, the U.S. built nearly 100,000 aircraft >> in 1944 alone. >> >> The Timeline >> Latham initially raised the notion in a 1990 paper. "The article >> went down like a lead balloon," he says. But early last year in >> England, at a geoengineering conference hosted by MIT and the >> Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, he presented the concept >> again. "The consensus was that a number of ideas originally thought >> to be outlandish were deemed sufficiently plausible to be supported >> further. Our work fell into that category." Latham needs a few >> million dollars to test his idea. "On the scale of the damage that >> will be caused by global warming, that is utterly peanuts." >> >> The Promise >> What's nice about this idea is that it can easily be fine-tuned. "If >> we tried it and there was some deleterious effect, we could switch >> it off, and within four or five days all evidence would have >> disappeared," Latham says. >> >> The Perils >> One worry is that although the tiny salt particles released by >> evaporating sea mist are perfect for marine stratocumulus-cloud >> formation, they are too small to create rain clouds. "You might make >> it harder for rain to form," Salter says. "Therefore, you would not >> want to do this upwind of a place where there is a bad drought." >> >> 6. Deflect Sunlight With A Mirror >> Feasibility: 1 >> Cost: $$$$ >> RISK: 5 >> One of the most ambitious schemes is a giant space "mirror" >> positioned between the Earth and sun to intercept sunlight. To build >> the mirror, physicist Lowell Wood, a senior staff scientist at >> Lawrence Livermore, proposes using a mesh of aluminum threads that >> are only a millionth of an inch in diameter and a thousandth of an >> inch apart. "It would be like a window screen made of exceedingly >> fine metal wire," he explains. The screen wouldn't actually block >> the light but would simply filter it so that some of the incoming >> infrared radiation wouldn't reach Earth's atmosphere. >> >> The Timeline >> Wood, who has been researching the mirror idea for more than a >> decade, says it should be considered only as a safety net if all >> other means of reversing global warming "fail or fall grossly short >> over the next few decades." >> >> The Promise >> Once in place, the mirror would cost almost nothing to operate. From >> Earth, it would look like a tiny black spot on the sun. "People >> really wouldn't see it," says Michael MacCracken. And plant >> photosynthesis isn't expected to be affected by the slight reduction >> in sunlight. >> >> The Perils >> Wood calculates that deflecting 1 percent of incoming solar >> radiation would stabilize the climate, but doing so would require a >> mirror spanning roughly 600,000 square miles?or several smaller >> ones. Putting something that size in orbit would be a massive >> challenge, not to mention exorbitantly expensive. From sateesh.narahari Sat Jul 16 21:57:23 2005 From: sateesh.narahari (Sat N) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Space mirrors. In-Reply-To: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: The cheapest option to reduce Green house gases is to elect a different president next time. Ofcourse, the other thing we can do is to stop driving additional 20 miles to buy organic food, just walk to the local market and buy GM foods!!! On 7/15/05, Zee Roe wrote: > > > > Feasibility: 1. :) > > > > How Earth-Scale Engineering Can Save the Planet > > Maybe we can have our fossil fuels and burn 'em too. These > scientists have come up with a plan to end global warming. One idea: > A 600,000-square-mile space mirror > > By Michael Behar | August 2005 > > David Keith never expected to get a summons from the White House. > But in September 2001, officials with the President's Climate Change > Technology Program invited him and more than two dozen other > scientists to participate in a roundtable discussion > called "Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change." While > administration officials were insisting in public that there was no > firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring > potential ways to turn down the heat. > Most of the world's industrialized nations had already vowed to > combat global warming by reining in their emissions of carbon > dioxide, the chief "greenhouse gas" blamed for trapping heat in > Earth's atmosphere. But in March 2001 President George W. Bush had > withdrawn U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol, the international > treaty mandating limits on CO2 emissions, and asked his > administration to begin studying other options. > > Keith, a physicist and economist in the chemical and petroleum > engineering department at the University of Calgary, had for more > than a decade been investigating strategies to curtail global > warming. He and the other scientists at the meeting?including > physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who had spent > a chunk of their careers designing nuclear weapons?had come up with > some ideas for "geoengineering" Earth's climate. What they proposed > was tinkering on a global scale. "We already are inadvertently > changing the climate, so why not advertently try to counterbalance > it?" asks retired Lawrence Livermore physicist Michael MacCracken, a > former senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program > who helped organize the meeting. > > "If they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there > would have been riots," Keith says. "Here were the bomb guys from > Livermore talking about stuff that strikes most greens as being > completely wrong and off-the-wall." But today, a growing number of > physicists, oceanographers and climatologists around the world are > seriously considering technologies for the deliberate manipulation > of Earth's climate. Some advocate planetary air-conditioning devices > such as orbiting space mirrors that deflect sunlight away from > Earth, or ships that intensify cloud cover to block the sun's rays. > Others are suggesting that we capture carbon dioxide?from the air, > from cars and power plants?and stash it underground or react it with > chemicals that turn it to stone. > > > > Carbon dioxide wasn't always public enemy number one. For the past > 400,000 years, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has > fluctuated between about 180 and 280 ppm (parts per million, the > number of CO2 molecules per million molecules of air). But in the > late 1800s, when humans set about burning fossil fuels in earnest, > atmospheric CO2 began to increase with alarming speed?from about 280 > ppm to the current level of almost 380 ppm, in a scant 100 years. > Experts predict that CO2 could climb as high as 500 ppm by 2050 and > possibly twice that by the end of the century. As CO2 levels > continue to rise, the planet will get hotter. "The question now," > says Ken Caldeira, an atmospheric scientist at Lawrence Livermore > and one of the world's leading authorities on climate change, "is > what can we actually do about it?" Here are some of the > geoengineering schemes under consideration. > > 1. Store CO2 Underground > Feasibility: 10 > Cost: $$ > RISK: 4 > In the southeastern corner of Saskatchewan, just outside the town of > Weyburn?the "Opportunity City"?a steel pipeline descends 4,000 feet > below the prairie at the edge of a 70-square-mile oil field. Into > this subterranean cavern, petroleum engineers are pumping 5,000 tons > of pressurized, liquefied carbon dioxide every day. The aim is > twofold: Use high-pressure CO2 to drive oil from the porous rock in > the reservoir to the surface, and trap the carbon dioxide > underground. > Welcome to the world's largest carbon-sequestering operation. Dubbed > the Weyburn Project, it began in July 2000 as a partnership between > EnCana, a Canadian oil and gas company, and Canada's Petroleum > Technology Research Centre. With $13 million in funding from more > than a dozen sponsors, including the U.S. Department of Energy, > engineers have already socked away six million tons of carbon > dioxide, roughly the amount produced by burning half a billion > gallons of gasoline. > > The Timeline > Unlike other geoengineering schemes, this one is already happening, > with more than half a dozen major projects under way. The problem, > says Howard Herzog, a principal research engineer at MIT's > Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, is that concentrated CO2 > is in short supply. There's too much of the gas floating around in > the air, but actually capturing, compressing, and transporting it > costs money. In the U.S. and most other nations, there are no laws > requiring fossil-fuel-burning power plants?the primary source of CO2 > emissions?to capture a single molecule of the gas. > > The Promise > By 2033, the Weyburn Project will store 25 million tons of carbon > dioxide. "That's like taking 6.8 million cars off the road for one > year," says project manager Mike Monea, "and this is just a pilot > test in a small oil reservoir." Saline aquifers, giant pools of > saltwater that have been trapped underground for millions of years, > could hold even more CO2. Humans dump about 28 gigatons of CO2 into > the atmosphere every year. Geologists estimate that underground > reservoirs and saline aquifers could store as much as 200,000 > gigatons. > > The Perils > Before CO2 is injected into the ground, it's compressed into what's > called a supercritical state?it's extremely dense and viscous, and > behaves more like a liquid than a gas. In this form, CO2 should > remain trapped underground for thousands of years, if not > indefinitely. The danger is if engineers accidentally "depressurize" > an aquifer while probing for oil or natural gas. There's also a risk > that carbon dioxide could escape slowly through natural fissures in > subterranean rock and pool up in basements or cellars. "If you > walked down into a basement [full of CO2]," Keith says, "you > wouldn't smell it or see it, but it would kill you." > > 2. Filter CO2 from the air > Feasibility: 4 > Cost: $$$ > RISK: 4 > Klaus Lackner is accustomed to skeptics. They've doubted him since > he first presented his idea for extracting carbon dioxide from > ambient air in March 1999, at an international symposium on coal and > fuel technology. "The reaction from everyone there was utter > disbelief," recalls Lackner, a physicist with the Earth Engineering > Center at Columbia University. > > He called for the construction of giant filters that would act like > flypaper, trapping CO2 molecules as they drifted past in the wind. > Sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide?chemicals that bind with > carbon dioxide?would be pumped through the porous filters much the > way antifreeze is circulated through a car's radiator. A secondary > process would strip the CO2 from the binding chemical. The chemical > would recirculate through the filter, while the CO2 would be set > aside for disposal. > > The Timeline > Lackner is collaborating with engineer Allen Wright, who founded > Global Research Technologies in Tucson, Arizona. Wright is > developing a wind-scrubber prototype but remains tight-lipped about > the project. He estimates that a completed system is at least two > years away. > > The Promise > Wind scrubbers can be placed wherever it's convenient to capture > carbon dioxide, so there's no need to transport it. Lackner > calculates that a wind scrubber designed to retain 25 tons of CO2 > per year?the average amount each American adds to the atmosphere > annually?would require a device about the size of a large plasma- > screen television. A single industrial-size wind scrubber about 200 > feet high and 165 feet wide would snag about 90,000 tons of CO2 a > year. > > The Perils > Some experts are dubious about the ease of separating carbon dioxide > from the binding chemical, a process that in itself would require > energy from fossil fuels. "CO2 is so dilute in the air that to try > to scrub from it, you have to pay too much for energy use," Herzog > says. And to capture all the carbon dioxide being added to the > atmosphere by humans, you'd need to blanket an area at least the > size of Arizona with scrubber towers. > > 3.Fertilize the ocean > Feasibility: 10 > Cost: $ > RISK: 9 > On January 5, 2002, Revelle, a research vessel operated by the > Scripps Institution of Oceanography, left New Zealand for the > Southern Ocean?a belt of frigid, stormy seas that separates > Antarctica from the rest of the world. There the scientists dumped > almost 6,000 pounds of iron powder overboard and unleashed an armada > of instruments to gauge the results. > The intent was to test a hypothesis put forth by oceanographer John > Martin. At a lecture more than a decade ago, Martin declared: "Give > me a half-tanker of iron, and I will give you an ice age." He was > alluding to the fact that the Southern Ocean is packed with minerals > and nutrients but strangely devoid of sea life. Martin had concluded > that the ocean was anemic?containing very little iron, an essential > nutrient for plankton growth. Adding iron, Martin believed, would > cool the planet by triggering blooms of CO2-consuming plankton. > > Oceanographer Kenneth Coale, who directs the Moss Landing Marine > Laboratories near Monterey, California, was a chief scientist on the > Southern Ocean cruise. He says the project was a success, proving > that relatively small quantities of iron could spawn colossal blooms > of plankton. > > The Timeline > Scientists are wary, saying that too little is known about the deep- > ocean environment to endorse further large-scale experiments. In > October, Coale and other scientists will gather in New Zealand for a > weeklong meeting sponsored by the National Science Foundation, New > Zealand's National Institute for Water and Atmosphere, and the > International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme to decide how to proceed. > > The Promise > Iron fertilization is by far the cheapest and easiest way to > mitigate carbon dioxide. Coale estimates that just one pound of iron > could conceivably hatch enough plankton to sequester 100,000 pounds > of CO2. "Even if the process is only 1 percent efficient, you just > sequestered half a ton of carbon for a dime." > > The Perils > "What is still a mystery," Coale says, "is the ripple effect on the > rest of the ocean and the food chain." One fear is that huge > plankton blooms, in addition to gorging on CO2, will devour other > nutrients. Deep currents carry nutrient-rich water from the Southern > Ocean northward to regions where fish rely on the nutrients to > survive. Says Coale, "A fertilization event to take care of > atmospheric CO2 could have the unintended consequence of turning the > oceans sterile. Oops." > > 4. Turn CO2 to Stone > Feasibility: 7 > Cost: $$ > RISK: 3 > The Grand Canyon is one of the largest carbon dioxide repositories > on Earth. Hundreds of millions of years ago, a vast sea covered the > land there. The water, rich in carbon dioxide, slowly reacted with > other chemicals to create calcium carbonate, or limestone?the > pinkish bands striping the canyon walls today. > > Nature's method for turning CO2 to stone is achingly slow, but > researchers at the Goldwater Materials Science Laboratory at Arizona > State University are working on a way to speed up the process. > Michael McKelvy and Andrew Chizmeshya use serpentine or olivine, > widely available and inexpensive minerals, as feedstock to fuel a > chemical reaction that transforms CO2 into magnesium carbonate, a > cousin of limestone. To initiate the reaction?known as "mineral > carbonation"?the CO2 is compressed, heated, and mixed with feedstock > and a catalyst, such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). > > The Timeline > Scaling up the process to handle millions of tons of CO2 would > require huge quantities of serpentine or olivine. A single mineral- > carbonation plant would carve out a mountain, but, McKelvy > says, "You could carbonate [the CO2] and put it right back where the > feedstock came from." > > The Promise > Mineral carbonation is simply an accelerated version of a benign > natural process. The limestone in the Grand Canyon is 500 feet > thick, McKelvy says, "and it has been sitting there not bothering > anybody for millennia." > > The Perils > It costs roughly $70 to eliminate one ton of CO2, a price that > McKelvy says is too high. Also, the feedstock and CO2 must be heated > to high temperatures. "You wind up having to burn fossil fuels in > order to provide the energy to activate the mineral to put away the > CO2," he says. > > > > 5. Enhance Clouds to Reflect Sunlight > Feasibility: 6 > Cost: $$ > RISK: 7 > Some proposed solutions to global warming don't involve capturing > carbon dioxide. Instead they focus on turning down the heat by > deflecting or filtering incoming sunlight. > On any given day, marine stratocumulus clouds blanket about one > third of the world's oceans, mostly around the tropics. Clouds form > when water vapor clings to dust or other particles, creating > droplets. Seeding clouds with tiny salt particles would enable more > droplets to form?making the clouds whiter and therefore more > reflective. According to physicist John Latham, a senior research > associate at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in > Boulder, Colorado, boosting reflectivity, or albedo, in just 3 > percent of marine stratocumulus clouds would reflect enough sunlight > to curb global warming. "It would be like a mirror for incoming > solar radiation," Latham explains. > > Latham is collaborating with Stephen Salter, an emeritus professor > of engineering design at the University of Edinburgh, who is making > sketches for GPS-steered wind- powered boats that would cruise the > tropical latitudes, churning up salt spray. "I am planning a > flotilla of unmanned yachts sailing backward and forward across the > wind," Salter says. "They would drag propellers through the water to > generate electricity, which we'd use to make the spray." > > Salter wants to outfit each boat with four 60-foot-tall Flettner > rotors, which look like smokestacks but act like sails. An electric > motor starts each rotor spinning, which, along with the wind, > creates a pressure differential (less pressure in front of the > rotor, more in back), generating forward thrust. From the top of the > rotor, an impeller would blast a fine saltwater mist into the air. > > Until the concept is tested, Salter isn't sure exactly how many > ships would be needed to mitigate global warming. "Maybe between > 5,000 and 30,000," he says. That may sound like a lot, but Salter > notes that for World War II, the U.S. built nearly 100,000 aircraft > in 1944 alone. > > The Timeline > Latham initially raised the notion in a 1990 paper. "The article > went down like a lead balloon," he says. But early last year in > England, at a geoengineering conference hosted by MIT and the > Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, he presented the concept > again. "The consensus was that a number of ideas originally thought > to be outlandish were deemed sufficiently plausible to be supported > further. Our work fell into that category." Latham needs a few > million dollars to test his idea. "On the scale of the damage that > will be caused by global warming, that is utterly peanuts." > > The Promise > What's nice about this idea is that it can easily be fine-tuned. "If > we tried it and there was some deleterious effect, we could switch > it off, and within four or five days all evidence would have > disappeared," Latham says. > > The Perils > One worry is that although the tiny salt particles released by > evaporating sea mist are perfect for marine stratocumulus-cloud > formation, they are too small to create rain clouds. "You might make > it harder for rain to form," Salter says. "Therefore, you would not > want to do this upwind of a place where there is a bad drought." > > 6. Deflect Sunlight With A Mirror > Feasibility: 1 > Cost: $$$$ > RISK: 5 > One of the most ambitious schemes is a giant space "mirror" > positioned between the Earth and sun to intercept sunlight. To build > the mirror, physicist Lowell Wood, a senior staff scientist at > Lawrence Livermore, proposes using a mesh of aluminum threads that > are only a millionth of an inch in diameter and a thousandth of an > inch apart. "It would be like a window screen made of exceedingly > fine metal wire," he explains. The screen wouldn't actually block > the light but would simply filter it so that some of the incoming > infrared radiation wouldn't reach Earth's atmosphere. > > The Timeline > Wood, who has been researching the mirror idea for more than a > decade, says it should be considered only as a safety net if all > other means of reversing global warming "fail or fall grossly short > over the next few decades." > > The Promise > Once in place, the mirror would cost almost nothing to operate. From > Earth, it would look like a tiny black spot on the sun. "People > really wouldn't see it," says Michael MacCracken. And plant > photosynthesis isn't expected to be affected by the slight reduction > in sunlight. > > The Perils > Wood calculates that deflecting 1 percent of incoming solar > radiation would stabilize the climate, but doing so would require a > mirror spanning roughly 600,000 square miles?or several smaller > ones. Putting something that size in orbit would be a massive > challenge, not to mention exorbitantly expensive. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From eugen Sun Jul 17 08:32:40 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [fhapgood@pobox.com: [nsg] Meeting Announcement] Message-ID: <20050717153236.GU4317@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Fred Hapgood ----- From: Fred Hapgood Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:27:41 -0400 To: Nanotech Study Group Cc: Subject: [nsg] Meeting Announcement X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.5 (F2.73; T1.001; A1.64; B3.05; Q3.03) Meeting notice: The July 19 meeting will be held at 7:30 P.M. at the Royal East (782 Main St., Cambridge), a block down from the corner of Main St. and Mass Ave. If you're new and can't recognize us, ask the manager. He'll probably know where we are. More details below. Suggested topic: The Generational Storm I've been reading the best-selling The Coming Generational Storm, by BU professor Lawrence Kotlikoff and Scott Burns. The core thesis is probably familiar to you -- that the boomer generation is screwing its children by 1) voting themselves immensely expensive services, 2) the bill for which will only come due after they are retired and therefore safe from the tax man, 3) while at the same time restricting childbirth, and therefore the number of contributors capable of shouldering, and sharing, the load. Nobody was looking explicitly for ways of causing the most possible pain per person, but they might as well have been. K. estimates the shortfall -- the size of the check being skipped out on -- at around $50 trillion, though was last year (the number gets bigger every year nothing is done). $50 trillion is about five times the size of the economy. It's interesting to read this from a nanotech perspective. On the one hand we tend to be far more impressed by the chaos of everyday life than the BU professor is. For K., 2030 is tomorrow and even 2080 is something to worry about. He is contemptuous of social security scenarios for looking only 75 years out, for instance. On the other, the members of this group probably expect life expectancy at 65 to crank up a lot faster than the Congressional Budget Office (K's source) does. All in all the $50 trillion dollar bugout seems to be one of those problems nanotech will make worse. (K. points out that productivity is linked to wages and at least in the case of SS, wages are linked to benefits, which adds up to another way in which technological change drives entitlement costs.) If you buy the argument as developed to this point there are only three possible outcomes -- and by "outcomes" I do not mean solutions. The first, cutting benefits, is obviously not going to happen. So forget that. The second is raising taxes. Perhaps the most useful single thing in this book is K's demonstration that taxes are really much higher than we think they are. When the IRS tells you are paying at a rate of 30% or whatever they are calculating across the base as a whole, as if they got 30% out of your first dollar. But if you make, say, $50,000 a year, the first $15,000 is tax free (in the sense that if that was all you made you wouldn't have to pay anything) and you don't pay a whole lot more on next $15,000 (if you were only making $30K your taxes would be nugatory). It's the final $20K, the marginal dollar, that takes the hit. Here are some real numbers: 1st column: Household income 2nd column: net marginal tax rate (net means govt. benefits are subtracted) $21K 72% $42K 66% $64K 63% $85K 59% ... and the numbers really don't ever get much lower than that. (The 72% and 66% in second column reflect the loss of means- tested government services rather than actual taxes.) So while K. is sure taxes are going to go up, he is equally sure they're not rising anywhere close to the point of handling a $50 trillion debt. Try it and people will stop working in droves, because people basically would just as soon not work for free. That leaves only the debtor's friend, inflation, and K. expects a lot of it for a long time. Of course the clash of generations is going to be even worse in the many countries that boast both longer life expectancies and more rapidly collapsing populations. I was just a tiny bit surprised that K. didn't speculate a bit about the reaction of countries like these to seeing themselves shrink year after year after year. Myself, I bet they won't like it. I bet it will scare them blue. I bet lots of people, and especially lots of politicians, in the shrinking nations are going to think that boosting tax breaks per kid is a much better use of the social dollar than giving it to infertile old people. We aren't really seeing much of this now but I think we will, and when we do, the "clash of generations" will get perfectly explicit. ><+><++><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> In twenty years half the population of Europe will have visited the moon. -- Jules Verne, 1865 <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Announcement Archive: http://www.pobox.com/~fhapgood/nsgpage.html. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Legend: "NSG" expands to Nanotechnology Study Group. The Group meets on the first and third Tuesdays of each month at the above address, which refers to a restaurant located in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The NSG mailing list carries announcements of these meetings and little else. If you wish to subscribe to this list (perhaps having received a sample via a forward) send the string 'subscribe nsg' to majordomo@polymathy.org. Unsubs follow the same model. Comments, petitions, and suggestions re list management to: nsg@pobox.com. www.pobox.com/~fhapgood www.pobox.com/~fhapgood _______________________________________________ Nsg mailing list Nsg@polymathy.org http://polymathy.org/mailman/listinfo/nsg_polymathy.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From sdw Sun Jul 17 10:48:15 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [fhapgood@pobox.com: [nsg] Meeting Announcement] In-Reply-To: <20050717153236.GU4317@leitl.org> References: <20050717153236.GU4317@leitl.org> Message-ID: <42DA9A0D.7000003@lig.net> I find this chain of logic interestingly short-sighted for a nanotechnology study group. I don't disagree with the premise from an economic point of view, but some serious success in nanotechnology, or power or medicine, will likely change the economic equation drastically in the next 20 years. While certain services will remain expensive, efficiency and featureful breakthroughs could change many key parts of the equation, including food, comfort, housing, transportation, and medicine. It's not inevitable; breakthroughs of the last 40 years have had large impacts but haven't turned the economy inside out or anything for the most part, but it's something that we should account for as a possibility. sdw Eugen Leitl wrote: >----- Forwarded message from Fred Hapgood ----- > >From: Fred Hapgood >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:27:41 -0400 >To: Nanotech Study Group >Cc: >Subject: [nsg] Meeting Announcement >X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.5 (F2.73; T1.001; A1.64; B3.05; Q3.03) > > >Meeting notice: The July 19 meeting will be held at 7:30 P.M. at the >Royal East (782 Main St., Cambridge), a block down from the corner of >Main St. and Mass Ave. If you're new and can't recognize us, ask the >manager. He'll probably know where we are. More details below. > >Suggested topic: The Generational Storm > >I've been reading the best-selling The Coming Generational Storm, by BU >professor Lawrence Kotlikoff and Scott Burns. > >The core thesis is probably familiar to you -- that the boomer >generation is screwing its children by 1) voting themselves immensely >expensive services, 2) the bill for which will only come due after they >are retired and therefore safe from the tax man, 3) while at the same >time restricting childbirth, and therefore the number of contributors >capable of shouldering, and sharing, the load. Nobody was looking >explicitly for ways of causing the most possible pain per person, but >they might as well have been. > >K. estimates the shortfall -- the size of the check being skipped out on >-- at around $50 trillion, though was last year (the number gets >bigger every year nothing is done). $50 trillion is about five times >the size of the economy. > >It's interesting to read this from a nanotech perspective. On the one >hand we tend to be far more impressed by the chaos of everyday life than >the BU professor is. For K., 2030 is tomorrow and even 2080 is >something to worry about. He is contemptuous of social security >scenarios for looking only 75 years out, for instance. On the other, >the members of this group probably expect life expectancy at 65 to crank >up a lot faster than the Congressional Budget Office (K's source) does. >All in all the $50 trillion dollar bugout seems to be one of those >problems nanotech will make worse. (K. points out that productivity is >linked to wages and at least in the case of SS, wages are linked to >benefits, which adds up to another way in which technological change >drives entitlement costs.) > >If you buy the argument as developed to this point there are only three >possible outcomes -- and by "outcomes" I do not mean solutions. > >The first, cutting benefits, is obviously not going to happen. So >forget that. > >The second is raising taxes. Perhaps the most useful single thing in >this book is K's demonstration that taxes are really much higher than we >think they are. When the IRS tells you are paying at a rate of 30% or >whatever they are calculating across the base as a whole, as if they got >30% out of your first dollar. But if you make, say, $50,000 a year, the >first $15,000 is tax free (in the sense that if that was all you made >you wouldn't have to pay anything) and you don't pay a whole lot more on >next $15,000 (if you were only making $30K your taxes would be >nugatory). > >It's the final $20K, the marginal dollar, that takes the hit. Here are >some real numbers: > >1st column: Household income >2nd column: net marginal tax rate (net means govt. benefits are >subtracted) > >$21K 72% >$42K 66% >$64K 63% >$85K 59% > >... and the numbers really don't ever get much lower than that. (The >72% and 66% in second column reflect the loss of means- tested >government services rather than actual taxes.) > >So while K. is sure taxes are going to go up, he is equally sure they're >not rising anywhere close to the point of handling a $50 trillion debt. >Try it and people will stop working in droves, because people basically >would just as soon not work for free. > >That leaves only the debtor's friend, inflation, and K. expects a lot of >it for a long time. > >Of course the clash of generations is going to be even worse in the many >countries that boast both longer life expectancies and more rapidly >collapsing >populations. I was just a tiny bit surprised that K. didn't speculate a >bit >about the reaction of countries like these to seeing themselves shrink >year >after year after year. Myself, I bet they won't like it. I bet it will >scare >them blue. I bet lots of people, and especially lots of politicians, in >the >shrinking nations are going to think that boosting tax breaks per kid is >a much >better use of the social dollar than giving it to infertile old people. > >We aren't really seeing much of this now but I think we will, and when >we do, the "clash of generations" will get perfectly explicit. > > > > > >><+><++><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> >> >> > >In twenty years half the population of Europe will have visited the >moon. > > -- Jules Verne, 1865 > ><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> > >Announcement Archive: http://www.pobox.com/~fhapgood/nsgpage.html. > ><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> > >Legend: > >"NSG" expands to Nanotechnology Study Group. The Group meets on the >first and third Tuesdays of each month at the above address, which >refers to a restaurant located in Cambridge, Massachusetts. > >The NSG mailing list carries announcements of these meetings and little >else. If you wish to subscribe to this list (perhaps having received a >sample via a forward) send the string 'subscribe nsg' to >majordomo@polymathy.org. Unsubs follow the same model. > >Comments, petitions, and suggestions re list management to: >nsg@pobox.com. www.pobox.com/~fhapgood > www.pobox.com/~fhapgood > > >_______________________________________________ >Nsg mailing list >Nsg@polymathy.org >http://polymathy.org/mailman/listinfo/nsg_polymathy.org > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From joe Sun Jul 17 16:16:05 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] checklist Message-ID: <42DAE69C.3060608@barrera.org> Checklist [MES]: I never leave home without: 1. Sunglasses - I wear them all year around, and seem to need them more often, it?s a habit 2. Music - cassettes, CDs 3. Palm Pilot - it?s my lifeline. I think it?s my P.A.?s computer, she rules my diary and I download it 4. Mobile phone 5. Amex card - they made such a fuss about giving it to me but I spend more time getting it turned down I was in the realm of the essence of Tong. -- I am Roman Totale XVII The bastard offspring Of Charles I and the Great God Pan. From eugen Sun Jul 17 23:32:33 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:20 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [fhapgood@pobox.com: Re: [nsg] Meeting Announcement]]]] Message-ID: <20050718063228.GE4317@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Fred Hapgood ----- From: Fred Hapgood Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:06:25 -0400 To: Eugen Leitl , Nanotech Study Group Subject: Re: [nsg] Meeting Announcement]]] X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.5 (F2.73; T1.001; A1.64; B3.05; Q3.03) > I find this chain of logic interestingly short-sighted for a > nanotechnology study group. I don't disagree with the premise from an > economic point of view, but some serious success in nanotechnology, or > power or medicine, will likely change the economic equation > drastically in the next 20 years. But they might change them in the wrong direction (in the direction of higher costs). Right now we pretty much have to make do with the eighty-odd tissues we have. Suppose this 'serious success' ends up yoking each of them to their own upgrade cycle? Suppose life expectancy at 65 goes to fifty years. Think that will come free? > ... breakthroughs of the last 40 years have had large > impacts but haven't turned the economy inside out or anything for the > most part ... Kotlikoff would probably ask you to wait five years, ten tops, and then see what you think ... Regards, Fred Hapgood www.pobox.com/~fhapgood ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From rschuman Mon Jul 11 06:27:11 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: SGI Faces Bankruptcy Message-ID: Curse of Beluzzo. >>> Joe Barrera 7/9/2005 1:23:26 PM >>> I know! Maybe HP can buy them! - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: SGI Faces Bankruptcy Date: 9 Jul 2005 16:26:04 -0000 From: brian-slashdotnews@hyperreal.org To: slashdotnews@hyperreal.org Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/09/1326249 Posted by: CowboyNeal, on 2005-07-09 13:35:00 from the dire-straits dept. [1]Richard Finney writes "[2] The stock chart tells the story: One time Silicon Valley high-flyer and contender for the Unix crown, SGI stock price dropped 20% on Friday ... deep into penny stock territory ... [3]after releasing fiscal fourth quarter results. The Mountain View, California maker of high end computers is '[4] exploring financing alternatives with its lender and other sources.' With mounting losses and investors giving ol' Silicon Graphics the thumbs down, things aren't looking good." References 1. mailto:FirstNameDotLastName@mail.google.com 2. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SGI&t=my&l=off&z=m&q=l&c= 3. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050707/sfth084.html?.v=14 4. http://biz.yahoo.com/cbsmb/050707/10dcf0f4eb3640a3b6aec3b87ad7fe8c.html?.v=1 . -- Sweet dreams and flying machines In pieces on the ground _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From rschuman Mon Jul 11 06:28:58 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Greg Bolcer's Latest Project Message-ID: Pretty soon we'll be talking about legacies. >>> Adam L Beberg 7/9/2005 6:34:01 AM >>> Regina Schuman wrote on 7/8/2005 1:18 PM: > Tobin Rey Bolcer > 8 pounds 14 ounces > 20-3/4" > 36.4cm head > 34cm chest. > 7/8/05 8:43am Sorry, only understood that last part. They cost way more then 8 pounds these days, and what the heck is an ounce? Nice to see the FoRK crowd is still fork()'ing ;) -- Adam L. Beberg http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From mattj Mon Jul 11 11:01:56 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] NASA world wind, Google Earth applications In-Reply-To: <42D181F4.2090306@cs.uu.nl> References: <20050710190003.7B47615DC5C8@xent.com> <42D181F4.2090306@cs.uu.nl> Message-ID: <1121104904.42d2b408ad67d@66.51.123.254> > Just being curious: have you folks already been playing around with > Google Earth? I love it. It's the most fun I've had with software in a decade. You can instantly show layers of placemarks for restaurants, parks, etc., etc. You can add your own placemarks, your own JPEG overlays (w/ transparency and altitude), your own polygons (2D or 3D), and animate through your own tours. There's a great BBS (bbs.keyhole.com) where users share placemark and overlay files. Since the user base is always combing the images for cool things (a "Duck Boat", an open drawbridge, a plane flying over the ocean), there's always more to see. It's also great entertainment for kids. You can set up a bunch of placemarks, and click through them on demand. Let's see the airplane! The rocket! The dam! In practical terms, I've used it for house hunting, and used it for planning trips. I haven't put much thought into other practical uses yet, but it's so fun (and cheap) that it doesn't matter. One negative, if you can call it that, is that the Google Earth database, like the Google web index, will change on you at any time. So that great picture of a plane over the ocean may be gone when you come back next month. If Google doesn't mind throwing a petabyte or two to the project, they could archive database editions for us. This would have immense benefits over time. Imagine a decade from now being able to look at a city, or a lake, or a glacier, or an ice shelf, at any angle/resolution/altitude, and play back a time-lapse movie of its changes. If Google does that, and throws it in for free, they deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From fork Mon Jul 11 12:41:08 2005 From: fork (Damien Morton) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube Message-ID: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> These guys get an Illuminati rating of abusive/weird http://www.timecube.com/ An open mind is a slop bucket, "THINK CUBIC". The Time Cube only offends the educated stupid - but there are so damn many of them. Academia teaches the evil of singularity to human cubics - born of opposites. I am flabbergasted that the "big brother" hired pedants can brainwash and indoctrinate the powerful antipode human mind to ignore the simple math of 4 simultaneous 24 hour days within a single rotation of Earth, to worship one and trash three. Magnificient evil job by teachers. From joe Mon Jul 11 12:55:21 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube In-Reply-To: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> References: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> Message-ID: <42D2CE94.7010800@barrera.org> Damien Morton wrote: > These guys get an Illuminati rating of abusive/weird > http://www.timecube.com/ Ah, that's old news. What bothers me is that my son (13yo) has independently come up with the notion of a "time pie" which, like, don't ask. - Joe From luis.villa Mon Jul 11 12:56:18 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube In-Reply-To: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> References: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c44050711125538727b47@mail.gmail.com> And the survey says 'ollllllllllllllld.' http://web.archive.org/web/19980118042021/http://www.timecube.com/ Some pretty funny notes taken when Gene was invited to speak at MIT in 2002: http://www.sunhelp.org/pipermail/geeks/2002-February/012432.html Luis On 7/11/05, Damien Morton wrote: > These guys get an Illuminati rating of abusive/weird > > http://www.timecube.com/ > > An open mind is a slop bucket, > "THINK CUBIC". > The Time Cube only offends > the educated stupid - but there > are so damn many of them. > Academia teaches the evil of > singularity to human cubics - > born of opposites. > I am flabbergasted that the > "big brother" hired pedants > can brainwash and indoctrinate > the powerful antipode human > mind to ignore the simple math > of 4 simultaneous 24 hour days within a single rotation of Earth, > to worship one and trash three. > Magnificient evil job by teachers. > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Mon Jul 11 12:56:58 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] time cube In-Reply-To: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> References: <42D2CB4B.4030402@bitfurnace.com> Message-ID: <42D2CEFC.50000@barrera.org> In related news, have you guys heard my theory about how the dark side of the moon is the side facing us? Because of all those maria, you know, which are kind of dark. And which the other side doesn't have so many of. - Joe From joe Mon Jul 11 13:24:19 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shrek foot? Message-ID: <42D2D560.5090706@barrera.org> Our office is right next door to the Redwood City PDI/Dreamworks studio, and on the grass between our buildings, there is a tarp and about six people shaping clay (?) into what looks like a huge leg with a foot with three toes sticking up. Does shrek have three toes? - Joe From joe Mon Jul 11 16:28:46 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're not saying anything" Message-ID: <42D30093.3020609@barrera.org> So surreal. Something straight out of Lem, or Heller. - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're not saying anything" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:12:31 -0400 From: Doug Henwood Reply-To: lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org To: lbo-talk Q Does the President stand by his pledge to fire anyone involved in the leak of a name of a CIA operative? MR. McCLELLAN: Terry, I appreciate your question. I think your question is being asked relating to some reports that are in reference to an ongoing criminal investigation. The criminal investigation that you reference is something that continues at this point. And as I've previously stated, while that investigation is ongoing, the White House is not going to comment on it. The President directed the White House to cooperate fully with the investigation, and as part of cooperating fully with the investigation, we made a decision that we weren't going to comment on it while it is ongoing. Q Excuse me, but I wasn't actually talking about any investigation. But in June of 2004, the President said that he would fire anybody who was involved in this leak, to press of information. And I just want to know, is that still his position? MR. McCLELLAN: Yes, but this question is coming up in the context of this ongoing investigation, and that's why I said that our policy continues to be that we're not going to get into commenting on an ongoing criminal investigation from this podium. The prosecutors overseeing the investigation had expressed a preference to us that one way to help the investigation is not to be commenting on it from this podium. And so that's why we are not going to get into commenting on it while it is an ongoing investigation, or questions related to it. Q Scott, if I could -- if I could point out, contradictory to that statement, on September 29th, 2003, while the investigation was ongoing, you clearly commented on it. You were the first one who said, if anybody from the White House was involved, they would be fired. And then on June 10th of 2004, at Sea Island Plantation, in the midst of this investigation is when the President made his comment that, yes, he would fire anybody from the White House who was involved. So why have you commented on this during the process of the investigation in the past, but now you've suddenly drawn a curtain around it under the statement of, "We're not going to comment on an ongoing investigation"? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, John, I appreciate the question. I know you want to get to the bottom of this. No one wants to get to the bottom of it more than the President of the United States. And I think the way to be most helpful is to not get into commenting on it while it is an ongoing investigation. That's something that the people overseeing the investigation have expressed a preference that we follow. And that's why we're continuing to follow that approach and that policy. Now, I remember very well what was previously said. And at some point, I will be glad to talk about it, but not until after the investigation is complete. Q So could I just ask, when did you change your mind to say that it was okay to comment during the course of an investigation before, but now it's not? MR. McCLELLAN: Well, I think maybe you missed what I was saying in reference to Terry's question at the beginning. There came a point when the investigation got underway when those overseeing the investigation asked that it would be their -- or said that it would be their preference that we not get into discussing it while it is ongoing. I think that's the way to be most helpful to help them advance the investigation and get to the bottom of it. Q Scott, can I ask you this; did Karl Rove commit a crime? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, David, this is a question relating to an ongoing investigation, and you have my response related to the investigation. And I don't think you should read anything into it other than we're going to continue not to comment on it while it's ongoing. Q Do you stand by your statement from the fall of 2003 when you were asked specifically about Karl and Elliott Abrams and Scooter Libby, and you said, "I've gone to each of those gentlemen, and they have told me they are not involved in this" -- do you stand by that statement? MR. McCLELLAN: And if you will recall, I said that as part of helping the investigators move forward on the investigation we're not going to get into commenting on it. That was something I stated back near that time, as well. Q Scott, I mean, just -- I mean, this is ridiculous. The notion that you're going to stand before us after having commented with that level of detail and tell people watching this that somehow you decided not to talk. You've got a public record out there. Do you stand by your remarks from that podium, or not? MR. McCLELLAN: And again, David, I'm well aware, like you, of what was previously said, and I will be glad to talk about it at the appropriate time. The appropriate time is when the investigation -- Q Why are you choosing when it's appropriate and when it's inappropriate? MR. McCLELLAN: If you'll let me finish -- Q No, you're not finishing -- you're not saying anything. You stood at that podium and said that Karl Rove was not involved. And now we find out that he spoke out about Joseph Wilson's wife. So don't you owe the American public a fuller explanation? Was he involved, or was he not? Because, contrary to what you told the American people, he did, indeed, talk about his wife, didn't he? MR. McCLELLAN: David, there will be a time to talk about this, but now is not the time to talk about it. Q Do you think people will accept that, what you're saying today? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, I've responded to the question. Go ahead, Terry. Q Well, you're in a bad spot here, Scott, because after the investigation began, after the criminal investigation was underway, you said -- October 10th, 2003, "I spoke with those individuals, Rove, Abrams and Libby, as I pointed out, those individuals assured me they were not involved in this." From that podium. That's after the criminal investigation began. Now that Rove has essentially been caught red-handed peddling this information, all of a sudden you have respect for the sanctity of the criminal investigation? MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's not a correct characterization Terry, and I think you are well aware of that. We know each other very well, and it was after that period that the investigators had requested that we not get into commenting on an ongoing criminal investigation. And we want to be helpful so that they can get to the bottom of this, because no one wants to get to the bottom of it more than the President of the United States. I am well aware of what was said previously. I remember well what was said previously. And at some point, I look forward to talking about it. But until the investigation is complete, I'm just not going to do that. Q Do you recall when you were asked -- Q Wait, wait -- so you're now saying that after you cleared Rove and the others from that podium, then the prosecutors asked you not to speak anymore, and since then, you haven't? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, you're continuing to ask questions relating to an ongoing criminal investigation, and I'm just not going to respond any further. Q When did they ask you to stop commenting on it, Scott? Can you peg down a date? MR. McCLELLAN: Back at that time period. Q Well, then the President commented on it nine months later. So was he not following the White House plan? MR. McCLELLAN: John, I appreciate your questions. You can keep asking them, but you have my response. Go ahead, Dave. Q We are going to keep asking them. When did the President learn that Karl Rove had had a conversation with the President -- with a news reporter about the involvement of Joseph Wilson's wife and the decision to send -- MR. McCLELLAN: I've responded to the questions. Q When did the President learn that Karl Rove had -- MR. McCLELLAN: I've responded to the questions, Dick. Go ahead. Q After the investigation is completed, will you then be consistent with your word and the President's word that anybody who was involved would be let go? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, after the investigation is complete, I will be glad to talk about it at that point. Q And a follow-up. Can you walk us through why, given the fact that Rove's lawyer has spoken publicly about this, it is inconsistent with the investigation, that it compromises the investigation to talk about the involvement of Karl Rove, the Deputy Chief of Staff? MR. McCLELLAN: Well, those overseeing the investigation expressed a preference to us that we not get into commenting on the investigation while it's ongoing. And that was what they requested of the White House. And so I think in order to be helpful to that investigation, we are following their direction. Q Scott, there's a difference between commenting on an investigation and taking an action -- MR. McCLELLAN: Go ahead, Goyal. Q Can I finish, please? MR. McCLELLAN: You can come -- I'll come back to you in a minute. Go ahead, Goyal. ___________________________________ http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk -- Sweet dreams and flying machines In pieces on the ground From deafbox Mon Jul 11 18:20:00 2005 From: deafbox (Russell Turpin) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're no In-Reply-To: <42D30093.3020609@barrera.org> Message-ID: Joe Barrera: >So surreal. Something straight out of Lem, or Heller. Or 1973. From joe Mon Jul 11 18:35:36 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] A: "again, I appreciated the question"; Q: "you're no In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D31E4D.6000403@barrera.org> Russell Turpin wrote: > Joe Barrera: > >> So surreal. Something straight out of Lem, or Heller. > > Or 1973. "And it feels like it's 1974.." But it really does, doesn't it? "And as W left the Whitehouse You could hear people say, 'They'll never rehabilitate that mother, no way...'" From joe Mon Jul 11 19:03:37 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises Message-ID: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? -------- Original Message -------- From lgonze Mon Jul 11 20:34:28 2005 From: lgonze (Lucas Gonze) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> Joe Barrera wrote: > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? > And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? Terrorism. From joe Mon Jul 11 21:09:12 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:31 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> Message-ID: <42D3424A.3030203@barrera.org> Lucas Gonze wrote: > Joe Barrera wrote: > > > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? And a > > *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > > Terrorism. Impotent gangrenous oozing seeping dick suckage. So gangrenous it comes off in your mouth, not in your hand. - Joe From lgonze Mon Jul 11 22:18:11 2005 From: lgonze (Lucas Gonze) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D3424A.3030203@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> <42D33A40.40507@panix.com> <42D3424A.3030203@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D3528F.90704@panix.com> Joe Barrera wrote: > Lucas Gonze wrote: > >> Joe Barrera wrote: >> >> > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? And a >> > *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? >> >> Terrorism. > > > Impotent gangrenous oozing seeping dick suckage. > > So gangrenous it comes off in your mouth, not in your hand. I don't understand, are you a Democrat? Is that why you are for the terrorists? p.s. my money is on Rove to try to bluster his way through, because (1) the administration's political strategy is to always take the offensive and (2) they've purged anyone willing to defer to reality. C.F. the Tom Delay train and WMDs. From eugen Tue Jul 12 01:52:53 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050712085248.GK25947@leitl.org> On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 07:03:08PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? > And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > > -------- Original Message -------- > We have a feeling that Germany has been transformed into a great house of God, including all classes, professions and creeds, where the Fuhrer as our mediator stood before the throne of the Almighty. -Joseph Goebbels, in a broadcast, 19 April 1936 -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From fork Tue Jul 12 10:52:08 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: I'm sure that's well within STDERROR. (well, I hope) -Ian. On 11-Jul-05, at 7:03 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? > And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > From joe Tue Jul 12 15:12:57 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] quote of the week Message-ID: <42D4404D.3070600@barrera.org> "I may be wrong, but I don't even think an essay on the SS would contain that many [occurrences of the word] 'Nazi' in so compact a textual space." - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [lbo-talk] blow the Christian right wide open! Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:18:08 -0400 From: Dwayne Monroe Reply-To: lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org To: lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org Doug posted: ========== Ah. I browsed to this URL and was about to skim the text when a thought took hold: don't read, just search for the word, "Nazi" and see what happens. After noting 54 occurrences (and counting!) I gave up. I may be wrong, but I don't even think an essay on the SS would contain that many "Nazis" in so compact a textual space. This not only adheres to Godwin's Law (see def. below if you're asking, whaaaa?) but adheres so closely there's not even an atom's width of space between Madsen's extravaganza (or perhaps I should say Nazi-palooza) and Godwin's adage. [...] From kelley Tue Jul 12 15:31:36 2005 From: kelley (kelley@inkworkswell.com) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: [lbo-talk] London Bounce? Bush's Approval Rating Rises In-Reply-To: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> References: <42D324DC.5090604@barrera.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050712183034.040a1110@pop.inkworkswell.com> At 10:03 PM 7/11/2005, Joe Barrera wrote: >Ah... FUCK me. 42% to 47% approval in one fuckin' week? >And a *drop* in "unsure" from 10% to 7%? > >-------- Original Message -------- > Don't forget the "rally-round-the-prez" effect. This happens whenever the president's in trouble. Nixon got bounces throughout the time preceding his resignation, when he was under attack in the press. IF you want to feel better, look at the long-term approval rating for Nixon over time. I'd look it up on the 'net, but I'm lazy. LBO will have it in the archives somehwere, no doubt. :) kelley When you need to communicate, Ink Works! http://www.inkworkswell.com +1 (727) 942-9255 From joe Tue Jul 12 15:33:21 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? Message-ID: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Well, first, I'll answer that: benchmarks. But let me continue... I have about 300 GB of mp3s (ripped from my own CDs, or purchased from emusic while they offered all-you-can-eat for a fixed amount per month). Over time, several of these files have become corrupted -- containing segments of other mp3 files, or just having trashed mp3 metadata. (This is with NTFS on Windows.) Now, at the very least, I shouldn't have to discover this corruption by playing the files -- it should be evident at the very latest when I do a chkdsk (= fsck on Windows) and/or when I open the file. But it isn't. So I end up having to write scripts to do md5sums on my mp3 files to notice changes (corruption) so I can restore from backup. This is so fuckin lame it makes my head spin backwards and tilted at at a 97 degree angle. - Joe P.S. Why isn't 97 degrees (for Neptune, duh) normalized to 83 degrees? -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From joe Tue Jul 12 15:35:36 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: HP Invents A New Way To Print Message-ID: <42D4459C.507@barrera.org> Isn't this the fuckin obvious way to do it? I thought HP incorporated the print head in the cartridge only to make money selling cartridges. Is this a defensive move against ever-cheaper color laser printers? - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: HP Invents A New Way To Print Date: 12 Jul 2005 22:26:07 -0000 From: brian-slashdotnews@hyperreal.org To: slashdotnews@hyperreal.org Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/12/1746200 Posted by: Zonk, on 2005-07-12 19:40:00 from the i-thought-we-were-a-paperless-society dept. [1]Sushant Bhatia writes "Forbes is reporting that HP is introducing new technology in its inkjet printers that should help the company and consumers save time and money. If successful, the strategy may alter the economics of the printer market. The new inkjet platform, which will initially be geared toward the high end of the market, [2]will incorporate the print head in the printer itself rather than in the ink cartridge. It means cheaper prints for consumers (about 24 cents per photo print) and faster output. HP says it has more than halved the time it takes to print a 4-inch-by-6-inch photo, to 14 seconds. [3]The press release from HP has details on the new technology." References 1. http://bhatia.net/ 2. http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/07/12/hewlett-packard-printer-strategy-cx_de_0712hp.html 3. http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050711a.html -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From fork Tue Jul 12 15:36:03 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: So how are you backing up 300GB of NTFS data? -Ian. On 12-Jul-05, at 3:32 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > Well, first, I'll answer that: benchmarks. But let me continue... > > I have about 300 GB of mp3s (ripped from my own CDs, or purchased > from emusic > while they offered all-you-can-eat for a fixed amount per month). > Over time, several > of these files have become corrupted -- containing segments of > other mp3 files, or just > having trashed mp3 metadata. (This is with NTFS on Windows.) Now, > at the very > least, I shouldn't have to discover this corruption by playing the > files -- it should be > evident at the very latest when I do a chkdsk (= fsck on Windows) > and/or when > I open the file. But it isn't. So I end up having to write scripts > to do md5sums on > my mp3 files to notice changes (corruption) so I can restore from > backup. This is > so fuckin lame it makes my head spin backwards and tilted at at a > 97 degree angle. > > - Joe > > P.S. Why isn't 97 degrees (for Neptune, duh) normalized to 83 degrees? > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell > I think we've been forced to our knees > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > From luis.villa Tue Jul 12 15:36:37 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) Luis On 7/12/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > Well, first, I'll answer that: benchmarks. But let me continue... > > I have about 300 GB of mp3s (ripped from my own CDs, or purchased from > emusic > while they offered all-you-can-eat for a fixed amount per month). Over > time, several > of these files have become corrupted -- containing segments of other mp3 > files, or just > having trashed mp3 metadata. (This is with NTFS on Windows.) Now, at the > very > least, I shouldn't have to discover this corruption by playing the files > -- it should be > evident at the very latest when I do a chkdsk (= fsck on Windows) and/or > when > I open the file. But it isn't. So I end up having to write scripts to do > md5sums on > my mp3 files to notice changes (corruption) so I can restore from > backup. This is > so fuckin lame it makes my head spin backwards and tilted at at a 97 > degree angle. > > - Joe > > P.S. Why isn't 97 degrees (for Neptune, duh) normalized to 83 degrees? > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell > I think we've been forced to our knees > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Tue Jul 12 15:39:29 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D44685.5040700@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > So how are you backing up 300GB of NTFS data? Just doing a copy to another 300GB disk. Can't be arsed to go the tape route. - Joe From joe Tue Jul 12 15:44:31 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> Luis Villa wrote: > Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't suck as bad as it does. - Joe From jm Tue Jul 12 15:59:49 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Joe Barrera writes: > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) > > Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? > > NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't > suck as bad as it does. but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional backups in the case I heard of. ouch. Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, but in the ext* case the data was always still there. - --j. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= =jW2i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jbone Tue Jul 12 16:08:50 2005 From: jbone (Jeff Bone) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! Message-ID: As Newsweek revealed Monday, Karl Rove was the source of the Plame leak. The essence of personal integrity is in doing what you say you will do. To maintain any shred, any pretense of credibility, Bush *must* now do what he promised last year and fire those responsible for the leak, i.e. Rove. Furthermore, Nixon-ian "Dirty Tricks" cannot be considered acceptable in today's GOP, or any political party. Please join me in encouraging Bush to keep his word and clean up his administration: http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove/ jb From joe Tue Jul 12 16:19:36 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Aw crap. OK. The problem is that I have one tower that I use as a file server, with everything else as laptops (albeit with a couple firewire/usb2 disks). And it's using several NTFS striped disks (60 or 80 GB each) to build ~300 GB virtual disks. So I'm going to have to do a lot of shuffling to get this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it does). If it doesn't, then this is going to have to wait until I have a couple spare 300 GB disks. How irritating. BTW I don't think I've ever pushed any of my filesystems past 95% capacity, so I don't know if the bug you described would apply. - Joe Justin Mason wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Joe Barrera writes: > > >>Luis Villa wrote: >> >> >> >>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) >>> >>> >>Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? >> >>NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't >>suck as bad as it does. >> >> > >but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS >v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode >index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the >filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after >they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on >inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional >backups in the case I heard of. ouch. > >Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) > >In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. >Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, >but in the ext* case the data was always still there. > >- --j. >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Exmh CVS > >iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 >fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= >=jW2i >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From fork Tue Jul 12 16:32:58 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> They won't do it. To fire Rove would be to excommunicate the principal architect of their core strategy (let's not believe for a second that this would at all impinge on his ability to influence decision making in the GOP, though) and, more to the point, would reveal that there is a leak in the dam. If they concede one leak then they will need to begin acknowledging all the other leaks that are popping up. They would also open the floor to unabashed criticism of the gobbermint, which is just plain unamerican. What're you gonna do then, eh?? Fire Rumsfeld for war crimes and manipulation of intelligence data? Fire Cheney for sweetheart deals to outsource the army to his former co-workers? Fire Condoleeza Rice for being EVIL? NO.. that's not the answer. The only way to get fired from this administration is to veer too dangerously close to reality, as in the case of Powell. That shit just will not do. So the strategy is clear: Deny, Deny, Deny. The seething Left-Wing (read: Mainstream) Press thinks they have seized upon a slam dunk case here but there is plenty of wriggle room. And their dogged pursuit of this morsel is just further proof of their Liberal anti- Christian bias. We are at WAR, people! Where's your humanity?! You can't encourage these people, George. Pretty soon they'll be clamoring for a democracy. -Ian. On 12-Jul-05, at 4:08 PM, Jeff Bone wrote: > > As Newsweek revealed Monday, Karl Rove was the source of the Plame > leak. > > The essence of personal integrity is in doing what you say you will > do. To maintain any shred, any pretense of credibility, Bush > *must* now do what he promised last year and fire those responsible > for the leak, i.e. Rove. Furthermore, Nixon-ian "Dirty Tricks" > cannot be considered acceptable in today's GOP, or any political > party. > > Please join me in encouraging Bush to keep his word and clean up > his administration: > > http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove/ From jm Tue Jul 12 16:34:55 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050712233259.ABFB02F058F@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 ext3 supports software-RAID striping, no problem. (I'm using it myself for a similar application, although not quite on that scale ;) FYI, the exact version of the buggy NTFS: 'it was the old ntfs ver 4 used by NT (service pack 3 I think). Since the switch to w2k and ntfs v5 it hasn't happened again.' - --j. Joe Barrera writes: > Aw crap. OK. The problem is that I have one tower that I use as a file > server, > with everything else as laptops (albeit with a couple firewire/usb2 disks). > And it's using several NTFS striped disks (60 or 80 GB each) to build > ~300 GB virtual disks. So I'm going to have to do a lot of shuffling to get > this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it does). > If it doesn't, then this is going to have to wait until I have a couple > spare 300 GB disks. How irritating. > > BTW I don't think I've ever pushed any of my filesystems past 95% > capacity, so I don't know if the bug you described would apply. > > - Joe > > Justin Mason wrote: > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > > > >Joe Barrera writes: > > > > > >>Luis Villa wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) > >>> > >>> > >>Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? > >> > >>NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't > >>suck as bad as it does. > >> > >> > > > >but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS > >v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode > >index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the > >filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after > >they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on > >inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional > >backups in the case I heard of. ouch. > > > >Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) > > > >In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. > >Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, > >but in the ext* case the data was always still there. > > > >- --j. > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) > >Comment: Exmh CVS > > > >iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 > >fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0>=jW2i > >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1FMrMJF5cimLx9ARAjm6AJ0VD2NyPt7hvxOqXAIA+YaAhzIdrwCgrArT f98L6JCviUnmIORovMpWXlk= =91wC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joe Tue Jul 12 16:39:57 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D454B2.1070504@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > What're you gonna do then, eh?? Fire Rumsfeld for war crimes and > manipulation of intelligence data? Fire Cheney for sweetheart deals > to outsource the army to his former co-workers? Fire Condoleeza Rice > for being EVIL? NO.. that's not the answer. Maybe not. But it would feel pretty god damn good. And I'm all for feeling pretty god damn good. - Joe P.S. Never knew how many more bones there were out there... From fork Tue Jul 12 16:40:01 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) Message-ID: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> Just as NASA's head nerdaucrat announced everything was fixed, a window fell out of the cockpit and damaged the engine pod, inspiring confidence for all! -Ian. ---- http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts114/050712omspod/ Cockpit window falls from Discovery, hits engine pod BY WILLIAM HARWOOD STORY WRITTEN FOR CBS NEWS "SPACE PLACE" & USED WITH PERMISSION Posted: July 12, 2005 NASA Administrator Michael Griffin, saying the space agency has done everything humanly possible to fix the problems that led to the Columbia disaster, told reporters today the shuttle Discovery is "go" for launch Wednesday, weather permitting, on an "utterly crucial" mission. "I just came from a very interesting mission management team meeting," Griffin said after the management poll to clear Discovery for flight. "The net result of all that is we're go for launch tomorrow, pending weather. We're not really working any significant issues, just working through normal closeouts and hoping the weather gods are kind for tomorrow." Late today, after Griffin's remarks, engineers were called to launch pad 39B to troubleshoot damage to protective heat shield tiles on Discovery's left-side orbital maneuvering system rocket pod. A protective plastic cockpit window cover somehow fell off and struck a tile-covered panel. The so-called carrier panel protects attachment fittings that hold the rocket pod to the shuttle's fuselage. A replacement carrier panel was taken to the launch pad for installation, a job engineers said typically takes about an hour. As of this writing, the work was not expected to impact Discovery's launching Wednesday. NASA's mission management team reviewed a handful of other open issues today, including concern about excessive heating on the strut fittings that hold Discovery's nose to its external fuel tank and concern about suspect components in one of the ship's electronic "black boxes." Griffin said all the open issues were resolved to the management team's satisfaction and Discovery's launch on the 114th shuttle mission, the first since Columbia's destruction two-and-a-half years go, remained on target for 3:50:53 p.m. Wednesday. The launch window closes at 3:55:53 p.m. On board will be commander Eileen Collins, pilot James Kelly, flight engineer Stephen Robinson, Andrew Thomas, Wendy Lawrence, Charles Camarda and Japanese astronaut Soichi Noguchi. The goal of the mission is to deliver critical supplies to the international space station; to bring trash and no-longer-needed gear back to Earth; to install a replacement gyroscope in the station's orientation control system; and to test rudimentary shuttle heat-shield repair techniques. "I had a chance earlier this morning to walk down the orbiter and to meet with the crew and the crew families and I can tell you that the crew is just raring to go and they guys who are doing all the closeout work on the orbiter and at the pad are also raring to go," Griffin said. "They're pumped. So we're looking forward to tomorrow, as I'm sure you are, after two and a half years down." Forecasters are calling for a 60 percent chance of good weather Wednesday through Friday. One long-range concern is tropical storm Emily and even though its current track carries it well to the south of Cuba and into the Gulf of Mexico, NASA managers are paying close attention. "Hurricanes are always out there, weather's always out there, we'll just deal with that as it comes," Griffin said. "Our job for tomorrow - and the whole team knows this - is to figure out if it's OK to fly tomorrow." Given the long-range weather prospects - and the fact that Discovery's launch window closes July 31 - it could be argued NASA is under a fair amount of pressure to get the shuttle off the ground as soon as possible. But Griffin said that was not the case. "How do we know we're not getting 'go' fever? Because we're working through the process, we're asking all the questions and answering them appropriately. If we can't answer them, we'll stop. It's that simple." Asked how important Discovery's flight was to NASA, Griffin said: "Obviously, it is utterly crucial for NASA, for the nation, for our space program to fly a safe mission." "We take it seriously. We have done everything that we know to do," he said. "I think we got everything that everybody knows about out on the table. Can there be something that we don't know about that can bite us? Yeah. This is a very tough business. A very tough business. But everything we know about has been covered." He said he viewed Discovery's launch and "every space launch we do" as a "tribute to all those who have gone before, the crews who have died as well as the crews who have lived." "In the course of trying to conduct spaceflight activities, we in the United States have lost three crews," Griffin said. "Russia has lost two. It's a dangerous business, it will be for the foreseeable future. We work every time to make it less dangerous than the time before. ... But this is a matter to be regarded with the perspective of generations, and not weeks and months. So I think every launch is a tribute to all those who have chosen to risk their lives for the benefit of this nation's progress in space exploration." Asked if Discovery's flight would be the safest in shuttle history, Griffin said the spaceplane has not flown enough times to provide the statistical data needed to answer the question. While the problem that doomed Columbia presumably has been fixed, "I don't think you can ever take the viewpoint that with a given launch or a given success that we have vindicated ourselves." "There is no recovery from mistakes we've made, whether it goes back to the Apollo (launch pad) fire, the loss of Challenger or the loss of Columbia," Griffin said. "Going back even further, through a hundred years of aviation, the safety lessons that we who fly have learned and know are written in other people's blood. "The minute we say we're good enough, we start getting bad again and we need not to do that. So we'll be looking at our management culture, our decision-making processes, our engineering processes aggressively as long as we hope to continue to fly safely." He reiterated that NASA had done "everything that we know to do" to make Discovery as safe as possible. "There is nothing that we know of that we have not addressed," he said. "Are there things out there that we don't know about? There may be. We sure hope not." From joe Tue Jul 12 16:40:59 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050712233259.ABFB02F058F@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050712233259.ABFB02F058F@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D454F0.7000302@barrera.org> Justin Mason wrote: > FYI, the exact version of the buggy NTFS: 'it was the old ntfs ver 4 > used by NT (service pack 3 I think). Since the switch to w2k and ntfs > v5 it hasn't happened again.' Well, I've been using W2K since '99, so I don't think that's the problem. - Joe From joe Tue Jul 12 16:46:32 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> References: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > Just as NASA's head nerdaucrat announced everything was fixed, a > window fell out of the cockpit and damaged the engine pod, inspiring > confidence for all! It's like the fuckin "K Car" of space flight. Designed to reestablish confidence in American Engineering. - Joe P.S. Except that the K Cars probably fared MUCH better... "Certainly the original K-cars, the Dodge Aires and the Plymouth Reliant, were utilitarian and admittedly hardly roadburners. But their smartly integrated front wheel drive layout represented a new breed of American automobile that would soon be ubiquitous because only such cars could compete on merit with the compact imports. And while build quality was not quite Nipponesque, it was still far superior to what Chrysler was capable of just a few years earlier, and provided a firm basis for even further improvement." From jm Tue Jul 12 16:49:56 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Yeah -- based on past actions, it's more likely that Rove would get promoted. to what, I don't know though. - --j. Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) writes: > They won't do it. To fire Rove would be to excommunicate the > principal architect of their core strategy (let's not believe for a > second that this would at all impinge on his ability to influence > decision making in the GOP, though) and, more to the point, would > reveal that there is a leak in the dam. If they concede one leak > then they will need to begin acknowledging all the other leaks that > are popping up. They would also open the floor to unabashed > criticism of the gobbermint, which is just plain unamerican. > > What're you gonna do then, eh?? Fire Rumsfeld for war crimes and > manipulation of intelligence data? Fire Cheney for sweetheart deals > to outsource the army to his former co-workers? Fire Condoleeza Rice > for being EVIL? NO.. that's not the answer. The only way to get > fired from this administration is to veer too dangerously close to > reality, as in the case of Powell. That shit just will not do. > > So the strategy is clear: Deny, Deny, Deny. The seething Left-Wing > (read: Mainstream) Press thinks they have seized upon a slam dunk > case here but there is plenty of wriggle room. And their dogged > pursuit of this morsel is just further proof of their Liberal anti- > Christian bias. We are at WAR, people! Where's your humanity?! > > You can't encourage these people, George. Pretty soon they'll be > clamoring for a democracy. > > -Ian. > > On 12-Jul-05, at 4:08 PM, Jeff Bone wrote: > > > > > As Newsweek revealed Monday, Karl Rove was the source of the Plame > > leak. > > > > The essence of personal integrity is in doing what you say you will > > do. To maintain any shred, any pretense of credibility, Bush > > *must* now do what he promised last year and fire those responsible > > for the leak, i.e. Rove. Furthermore, Nixon-ian "Dirty Tricks" > > cannot be considered acceptable in today's GOP, or any political > > party. > > > > Please join me in encouraging Bush to keep his word and clean up > > his administration: > > > > http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove/ > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1Fa1MJF5cimLx9ARApdGAJ9UjikszCFPPsVBPSxfmOQDohwIEACguN4B H/+ydACXcuPaN++nj1mIUTQ= =iEF2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joe Tue Jul 12 16:54:50 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [Fwd: Terrorism & Security - Memo: US, Brits to withdraw majority of troops by mid-2006] Message-ID: <42D4582E.3070109@barrera.org> Best fuckin' news I've heard for the past... well, for the past five years, really. - Joe -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Terrorism & Security - Memo: US, Brits to withdraw majority of troops by mid-2006 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:42:02 -0400 (EDT) From: CSMonitor Daily Update Reply-To: CSMonitor Daily Update To: csmonitor.com subscribers Leaked secret memo says coalition forces will be cut to 66,000. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0711/dailyUpdate.html Or AOL Keyword: CS Monitor To unsubscribe or update your account, go to: http://www.csmonitor.com/modifyemail For further assistance, send a message to: support@csmonitor.com (c) 2005 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved. . -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell I think we've been forced to our knees From ejw Tue Jul 12 17:19:34 2005 From: ejw (Jim Whitehead) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> While I agree there have been inconsistencies in the Administration's handling of this case, it does seem reasonable to me to refuse to comment on an ongoing criminal case. As well, while we know that Rove was one of the sources, we don't know that he was *the* source that outed Ms. Plame. I'm concerned that this could look embarassing for Dems if Rove turns out to be a minor figure. Best to wait for the final story, especially since this will come out much closer to mid-term elections. - Jim From bill Tue Jul 12 17:40:34 2005 From: bill (Bill Humphries) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> References: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> Message-ID: <0AFA25A9-B2F7-4B01-BF5C-F7DC088E74A8@whump.com> On Jul 12, 2005, at 4:46 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > P.S. Except that the K Cars probably fared MUCH better... > > I had a 'K' car back in grad school. The carburetor would die whenever it got humid. -- whump From joe Tue Jul 12 17:51:25 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <0AFA25A9-B2F7-4B01-BF5C-F7DC088E74A8@whump.com> References: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> <42D4563C.1080106@barrera.org> <0AFA25A9-B2F7-4B01-BF5C-F7DC088E74A8@whump.com> Message-ID: <42D46570.8050100@barrera.org> Bill Humphries wrote: > I had a 'K' car back in grad school. The carburetor would die > whenever it got humid. Carburetors are shite. Better to have a fuel-injected candle. - Joe From luis.villa Tue Jul 12 18:03:30 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> References: <42D44514.5050202@barrera.org> <2cb10c4405071215367dc4c0ca@mail.gmail.com> <42D447B4.8060100@barrera.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c4405071218031de596dc@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) > > Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? I've never personally had data corruption in Linux that couldn't be traced to HW failure (though I know a few people who have, mostly reiser users), and don't know anyone on Windows who *hasn't* had data corruption at some point, though the vast majority of them probably weren't using NTFS. That is purely anecdotal, of course, but... Luis From luis.villa Tue Jul 12 18:09:06 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> References: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <2cb10c44050712180918724a07@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/05, Jim Whitehead wrote: > As well, while we know that Rove was one of the > sources, we don't know that he was *the* source that outed Ms. Plame. > > I'm concerned that this could look embarassing for Dems if Rove turns out to > be a minor figure. Best to wait for the final story, especially since this > will come out much closer to mid-term elections. Yeah. It seems like there is a lot of jumping to conclusions here. I'd like as much as anyone to see Rove nailed to the wall, but what is out there is fairly thin so far. The key, of course, is who told what to Novak. [Embarassing that Novak isn't the one in jail. But of course, you all knew that.] [Tangentially, by the end of all this I may actually loathe Robert Novak more than Rove, which is hard.] Luis From lgonze Tue Jul 12 18:19:17 2005 From: lgonze (Lucas Gonze) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <2cb10c44050712180918724a07@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050712234805.B52B02F058F@radish.jmason.org> <200507130019.j6D0JUvw029437@services.cse.ucsc.edu> <2cb10c44050712180918724a07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Luis Villa wrote: > On 7/12/05, Jim Whitehead wrote: >> As well, while we know that Rove was one of the >> sources, we don't know that he was *the* source that outed Ms. Plame. >> >> I'm concerned that this could look embarassing for Dems if Rove turns out to >> be a minor figure. Best to wait for the final story, especially since this >> will come out much closer to mid-term elections. > > Yeah. It seems like there is a lot of jumping to conclusions here. I'd > like as much as anyone to see Rove nailed to the wall, but what is out > there is fairly thin so far. Rove may not go to jail, but that's beside the point. Luskin admitted that Rove outed Plame to Cooper, and that Rove is a subject of the investigation. There is no doubt whatsoever that Rove outed Plame. From deafbox Tue Jul 12 18:33:49 2005 From: deafbox (Russell Turpin) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <9A0DFEB7-7877-440A-9D7E-636C551B6ABD@ianbell.com> Message-ID: Ian Andrew Bell: >Just as NASA's head nerdaucrat announced everything was fixed, a window >fell out of the cockpit.. Not a window, but a window cover. Very different. From jbone Tue Jul 12 18:55:41 2005 From: jbone (Jeff Bone) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2005, at 6:32 PM, Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > They won't do it. Probably not --- or maybe of course not. The real question, here, is whether this will finally sink into the thick noggins of some of the knee-jerk formerly-moderate Republicans who have inexplicably closed ranks so tightly around this gangster "presidency" over the last few years. Some of those folks, hopefully, maybe, are capable of seeing the irony of an administration that puts things like "character," "integrity," and "national security" on its letterhead --- yet fails such a simple test as keeping its word about firing administration criminals who compromise national security. Even so, if action is taken --- will Rove be the sole fall guy? Or will this trace its path back to where it needs to go: to Scooter Libby, and ultimately Cheney? Interesting that Rove's the first man on the block. Most folks think that Scooter is really the low man on that totem pole, and that Rove is the architect. (Cf. Ian's comment re: Rove as "principal architect of their core strategy.") While I'd never underestimate the man, I've come to view Rove as a sort of major domo of dirty tricks and power-brokering liaison, but not the puppet master that he first appeared to be. Rove is Bush's man. The real power in this White House is and always has been the Cheney gang, IMHO. The fact that someone so close to the president --- Rove --- is the public face of this controversy, and the silence from the White House --- tells an interesting story. Somebody's being shielded, and the logical reason for that is that the dominoes fall in the direction of real power. We'll see. The next few weeks will be interesting. $0.02, jb From sdw Tue Jul 12 19:16:19 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Fwd: HP Invents A New Way To Print In-Reply-To: <42D4459C.507@barrera.org> References: <42D4459C.507@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D47980.60303@lig.net> Having a separate ink cartridge and print head (nozzles) does seem like the way it started, as I remember it. I believe they put the nozzles on the print head because nozzles eventually clog and you can get better ink movement and pressure that way. You are replacing the most sensitive part of the printer when you replace both. I've tried some of the Staples recycled print cartridges on my HP printers and, just as you would suspect, often some of the nozzles are clogged (plus the cyan was visibly the wrong color). In reading the press release, it looks like the innovation is large scale photolithography-based printhead / piezo unit with 3900 or more nozzles. They are implying that they can handle large widths with many inks simultaneously in an easy to manufacture way that prints far faster than before. sdw Joe Barrera wrote: > Isn't this the fuckin obvious way to do it? > I thought HP incorporated the print head in the cartridge > only to make money selling cartridges. Is this a defensive > move against ever-cheaper color laser printers? > > - Joe > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: HP Invents A New Way To Print > Date: 12 Jul 2005 22:26:07 -0000 > From: brian-slashdotnews@hyperreal.org > To: slashdotnews@hyperreal.org > > > > Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/12/1746200 > Posted by: Zonk, on 2005-07-12 19:40:00 > > from the i-thought-we-were-a-paperless-society dept. > [1]Sushant Bhatia writes "Forbes is reporting that HP is introducing > new technology in its inkjet printers that should help the company and > consumers save time and money. If successful, the strategy may alter > the economics of the printer market. The new inkjet platform, which > will initially be geared toward the high end of the market, [2]will > incorporate the print head in the printer itself rather than in the > ink cartridge. It means cheaper prints for consumers (about 24 cents > per photo print) and faster output. HP says it has more than halved > the time it takes to print a 4-inch-by-6-inch photo, to 14 seconds. > [3]The press release from HP has details on the new technology." > > References > > 1. http://bhatia.net/ > 2. > http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/07/12/hewlett-packard-printer-strategy-cx_de_0712hp.html > > 3. http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050711a.html > > > > > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From sdw Tue Jul 12 19:20:55 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D47A94.5090308@lig.net> I periodically look to see if someone's managed to create an Ext3 or ReiserFS driver for WinXP... I've never lost data with ReiserFS, except when I should have lost everything due to very ugly block level selective failure. Even then, I retrieved almost all of my data. I'm sure there were versions that had temporary problems, but I use ReiserFS on terabyte filesystems and several million files with no problems at all. ReiserFS is so much better at storing zillions of files, especially small ones but also large files, that I cringe at using anything else. I have some great Linux-based NAS units and ReiserFS support is my main request. sdw Justin Mason wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Joe Barrera writes: > > >>Luis Villa wrote: >> >> >> >>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) >>> >>> >>Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? >> >>NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't >>suck as bad as it does. >> >> > >but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an NTFS >v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode >index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the >filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after >they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no data on >inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional >backups in the case I heard of. ouch. > >Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) > >In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. >Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, >but in the ext* case the data was always still there. > >- --j. >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Exmh CVS > >iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 >fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= >=jW2i >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From sdw Tue Jul 12 19:33:05 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D47D6E.4060903@lig.net> He mentioned the FAT, i.e. file allocation table. I'm not sure of the details for NTFS, but on some filesystems it is possible to run out of file or allocation range slots/bits before running out of space. On the old System 5.2/3 filesystems, inodes were limited. It was configurable, but in the System V.2 days the hard limit was 64K inodes. I passed this running a Usenet server in 1992 and rewrote INN to use ARC archives for article storage. sdw Joe Barrera wrote: > Aw crap. OK. The problem is that I have one tower that I use as a file > server, > with everything else as laptops (albeit with a couple firewire/usb2 > disks). > And it's using several NTFS striped disks (60 or 80 GB each) to build > ~300 GB virtual disks. So I'm going to have to do a lot of shuffling > to get > this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it > does). > If it doesn't, then this is going to have to wait until I have a couple > spare 300 GB disks. How irritating. > > BTW I don't think I've ever pushed any of my filesystems past 95% > capacity, so I don't know if the bug you described would apply. > > - Joe > > Justin Mason wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> Joe Barrera writes: >> >> >>> Luis Villa wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Why are you putting mission critical data like mp3s on NTFS? :) >>>> >>> >>> Sigh. Legacy. Would Linux really do better? >>> >>> NTFS is supposed to be a journaling FS -- It really shouldn't >>> suck as bad as it does. >>> >> >> >> but it does. FWIW, NTFS had an even nastier bug previously.... if an >> NTFS >> v4 fs ran out of FAT space (or whatever it is that passes for an inode >> index over there), it'd simply go haywire and lose track of the >> filename->data mapping -- undeleteable files, files that reappear after >> they'd been deleted, and files that appeared fine, but that had no >> data on >> inspection. The latter in particular made for lots of non-functional >> backups in the case I heard of. ouch. >> >> Save yourself a lot of trouble and just use ext3 ;) >> >> In my experience, I've never had trouble with ext2 or ext3 filesystems. >> Reiserfs, now, that's lost data -- and ext2 has had some hairy fscks, >> but in the ext* case the data was always still there. >> >> - --j. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Exmh CVS >> >> iD8DBQFC1Er5MJF5cimLx9ARAmn5AKCG14eGIHnWNxyAFrKTKTzSjpQcugCgmNW1 >> fCw+2vi16LwLj2Bc5FcAJI0= >> =jW2i >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From baisley Tue Jul 12 20:11:35 2005 From: baisley (Wayne Baisley) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> > this all over onto ext3, assuming it supports striping (I assume it does). Yep. See http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Software-RAID-HOWTO.html for gory details, but it's pretty straightforward. The /etc/raidtab file describes the layout. The mkraid command builds the unit(s). /proc/mdstat contains the current state. There are other commands like raidhotadd, if you want to get fancy. We've used ext3 and software striping for years and have had very little trouble. We use xfs for huge hardware arrays where fragmentation is an issue. Nothing but xfs survives our benchmark test. I don't think that will be an issue for you. Cheers, Wayne From joe Tue Jul 12 20:35:32 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> Message-ID: <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> Wayne Baisley wrote: > Yep. See http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Software-RAID-HOWTO.html for gory > details, but it's pretty straightforward. The /etc/raidtab file > describes the layout. The mkraid command builds the unit(s). > /proc/mdstat contains the current state. There are other commands > like raidhotadd, if you want to get fancy. We've used ext3 and > software striping for years and have had very little trouble. We use > xfs for huge hardware arrays where fragmentation is an issue. > Nothing but xfs survives our benchmark test. I don't think that will > be an issue for you. Cool. So the other question -- perhaps the more important question -- is: why the hell is a filesystem not just a fuckin APPLICATION, independent of the OS? It's because it's not that I judge the whole Mach/"micro"kernel thing to be a complete and total failure. - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees From joe Tue Jul 12 20:56:44 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D490E1.9030205@barrera.org> Jeff Bone wrote: > The real question, here, is whether this will finally sink into the > thick noggins of some of the knee-jerk formerly-moderate Republicans > who have inexplicably closed ranks so tightly around this gangster > "presidency" over the last few years. Some of those folks, It's inspiring to see Spector losing it with these folks. Even if it is from barely-generalized self-interest. (... and even Hatch?!) Yes, stem cells are a bit distant from Rove, but any indication of breaking ranks with the True Believers in the WH is a good sigh. [Editorial] Pass the Stem Cell Bill Wednesday, July 13, 2005; Page A20 THE SENATE WILL soon take up a bill -- already passed by the House -- to liberalize the Bush administration's policy on federal funding of stem cell research. Under the current policy, government money can be used to fund research on certain embryonic stem cell colonies -- known as "lines" -- but not on any begun after the policy itself was adopted in 2001. The new bill, pushed by Sens. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) and Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), would relax this standard considerably, permitting federal support for study of a wide array of stem cell lines generated from embryos left over from in vitro fertilization. President Bush has promised a veto. The Senate should make him do it. Mr. Bush's policy on stem cell research was not as bankrupt an idea as his fiercer critics sometimes make out. It allowed federal money to begin flowing to a field that might promise dramatic breakthroughs in the treatment of devastating diseases. At this point, however, the policy has outlived its value and is impeding research. Consequently, the public now faces the question of whether to let moral anxiety about the use of human embryos frustrate science that could save and improve many lives. This might be a difficult choice were these embryos not being created and destroyed anyway. But these small clusters of cells, which are not yet even fetuses, are routinely generated in fertilization clinics in quantities that exceed the number of embryos that will actually be implanted in women. They will never grow into babies; the only question is whether they will be discarded or used in a fashion that benefits humanity. As the Senate vote draws nearer, there has been talk of alternative legislation that would fund research into promising scientific techniques that might produce stem cell lines without requiring embryo destruction. The idea is to peel off conservative support for liberalizing the president's policy by creating an option that could still be framed as supportive of stem cell research. Alternative strategies for creating stem cell lines -- an idea discussed yesterday in an op-ed column by Leon R. Kass, chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics -- should certainly be explored, and it makes sense for Congress to support such research. But these techniques are, at this stage, nascent and uncertain and have not yet successfully yielded cell lines [and have not been published in any referreed journals -- joe]. They therefore cannot now support the research that is so urgently needed. Federal support for research into their viability is at best a complement to -- not a substitute for -- funding the full range of study possible now on embryonic lines. Such hypothetical alternatives should not be permitted to derail an important change in policy. POLITICS AND POLICY Republicans Break Ranks on Stem Cells Senate Is Likely to Pass Bill Expanding Federal Funds For Research, Defying Bush By BERNARD WYSOCKI JR. Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL July 7, 2005; Page A4 WASHINGTON -- Republicans are breaking with President Bush on federal funding for embryonic stem-cell research. The question is whether enough of them will break to upend his policy anytime soon. Polls show that most rank-and-file Republicans favor increased federal funding for such research, despite the staunch opposition of Mr. Bush and conservative leaders. In May, 50 Republican House members defected from the White House line and joined Democrats in approving a measure to expand funding. Now it is the Senate's turn to consider the idea. And backers of expanded research say they have a chance to do even better: amass a majority large enough to override a presidential veto. Reaching that 67-vote threshold won't be easy. And it probably wouldn't result in overturning Mr. Bush's restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research now, because the House vote was about 50 votes short of override strength. But proponents say every strong display of support moves their goal closer to reality -- if not in this Congress, then in the one after 2006 elections. "If the president vetoes the legislation, the issue isn't finished," said Lawrence Soler, a government-relations official at the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, a stem-cell advocacy group in Washington. "The fact that a majority of the House and Senate support the legislation is a critical step in building support that will eventually produce an expansion of the policy." [Getting on the Board] The first challenge is getting the 60 Senate votes needed to surmount a filibuster by conservative opponents of expanded research. Proponents say they are already on the threshold of clearing that hurdle. But the greater the number over 60, the greater the chance of forcing concessions on stem-cell policy from a White House that has long relied on near-unanimous support from fellow Republicans. Moderate Republican senators who favor abortion rights, such as Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Olympia Snowe of Maine, already are mostly aligned with minority Democrats favoring expanded research. Those still in play tend to have antiabortion credentials and political backing and are wary of breaking ranks with party leaders and the president. But many of these senators represent states with solid constituencies, in universities and business, for advances in medical science. Those constituencies, combined with polls showing lopsided public support for embryonic stem-cell research, leave the Senate's stem-cell swing bloc feeling squeezed. "If we could find some happy compromise that allows the research to continue, we would all be happy," says Sarah Chamberlain Resnick, executive director of the moderate Republican Main Street Partnership. "We don't want to force the president into a veto." Among those wavering is Sen. George Allen, the former governor of Virginia. His state has a thriving science and technology industry. But Mr. Allen is a potential 2008 entrant in Republican presidential primaries, where social conservatives wield strong influence. Sen. Allen ducked questions about his stance in an interview, saying he won't be "pigeonholed" on whether he supports the current Senate bill. He said he seeks a "third way" to avoid ethical dilemmas, such as scientific procedures that extract stem cells from an embryo without destroying it. So far, however, that approach consists mostly of proposals or early-stage experiments in animals; in some cases the results haven't been published. And the possibility that existing embryos could be harmed in some cases leaves the idea vulnerable to objection under the government's legal and ethical guidelines for federally funded research. Embryonic stem cells have the special ability to develop into every type of cell in the human body. Their medical potential may include treatments for Parkinson's disease, diabetes, heart disease and other ailments. Supporters say the bill awaiting Senate consideration limits funding to stem cells from those embryos that would be discarded by fertility clinics in any event because they are unneeded by couples. Opponents say the research amounts to destruction of human life. The policy Mr. Bush enunciated in August 2001 permitted funding for research on those stem-cell lines that existed at that point. To create embryonic stem cells for research, a stem-cell line must be created from the inner cell mass of a week-old embryo. Embryonic stem cells can grow and divide indefinitely and can be distributed to researchers. Another officially undecided Republican is Sen. Norm Coleman of Minnesota. Though Mr. Coleman has a strong right-to-life voting record, his state boasts a large biomedical industry, the Mayo Clinic and a top stem-cell research facility at the University of Minnesota. Some of those biomedical interests worry that failure to overturn Mr. Bush's policy will push stem-cell research overseas or to states such as California, which recently passed a $3 billion bond issue to conduct such research. Some Republicans with strong antiabortion reputations, like Utah's Orrin Hatch, are already squarely on the side of expanded research. Proponents hope that Mr. Hatch's co-sponsorship of the Senate bill will provide political "cover" for other antiabortion senators to line up behind expanded research. "Life doesn't begin in a Petri dish," Mr. Hatch said at a recent news conference. Some social conservatives acknowledge that Mr. Hatch's outspoken stance has undercut them. They respond, in part, by warning members of Congress that support for embryonic-stem-cell research is a "slippery slope" leading toward therapeutic cloning, a process of cultivating stem cells that are tailored to individual patients, but is specifically excluded from this legislation. "The real issue is cloning," says Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, a large antiabortion group. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who opposes expanded research, has said it is likely that a bill will come to the floor soon after the chamber's recess. But unlike in the House, where leaders permitted only a yes-or-no floor vote, the Senate's wide-open rules permit potential amendments. That means the legislation could be modified and set up negotiations between the House and Senate on a final version. Such a process, especially after a major show of strength from backers of expanded stem-cell research, could tempt the White House to acquiesce in a compromise. Write to Bernard Wysocki Jr. at bernie.wysocki@wsj.com From meltsner Tue Jul 12 21:13:57 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns Message-ID: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> May be old bits, but it struck me as necessary. http://www.3dweb.no/galleri/stuestolbm/bilder/anim1.swf Perhaps a bit in bad taste after the London bombing, but only if you're ridiculously quick to draw parallels between human and bovine terrorists. Ken -- Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but model train sets do a pretty good job as well -- 2/28/05, in a odd dream From beberg Tue Jul 12 21:49:20 2005 From: beberg (Adam L Beberg) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [Fwd: Terrorism & Security - Memo: US, Brits to withdraw majority of troops by mid-2006] In-Reply-To: <42D4582E.3070109@barrera.org> References: <42D4582E.3070109@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D49D4E.6060901@mithral.com> Joe Barrera wrote on 7/12/2005 4:54 PM: > Best fuckin' news I've heard for the past... well, for the past five > years, really. > >> Leaked secret memo says coalition forces will be cut to 66,000. Um, no. At least with all troops busy, things are stable. But you're right, those 100k troops are BADLY needed to get into Iran before they open up the Tehran oil bourse and start trading oil in Euros. Because the day after they do we'll all be using dollars to wipe our asses, not being able to buy toilet paper with our now worthless dollars. Saddam tried that, and we kicked his ass, all it took was bankrupting ourselves. -- Adam L. Beberg http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From joe Tue Jul 12 22:23:00 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> Russell Turpin wrote: > Not a window, but a window cover. Yeah. Not even something intended to be used in flight -- just a protective cover held on with tape. Only interesting because the cover fell and hit some tiles. Still, I welcome any opportunity to talk about K-cars. - Joe :-) -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees From bill Tue Jul 12 22:30:10 2005 From: bill (Bill Humphries) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:32 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> References: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2005, at 10:22 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > Still, I welcome any opportunity to talk about K-cars. That carburetor's going to suck ass in vacuum and microgravity. :) -- whump From joe Tue Jul 12 22:36:05 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Shuttle IS SAFE! (Just Don't Open The Windows) In-Reply-To: References: <42D4A518.3050307@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D4A828.2060202@barrera.org> Bill Humphries wrote: > On Jul 12, 2005, at 10:22 PM, Joe Barrera wrote: > >> Still, I welcome any opportunity to talk about K-cars. > > That carburetor's going to suck ass in vacuum and microgravity. :) Good God, now you sound like Eugen talking about pitbull dental dams on mars :-) > From Eugen Leitl eugen at leitl.org: > On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 05:34:43PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > Johnnie Royale wrote: > > > I got to call bullshit on that one. If you walked your dog on Mars > > you'd need to have him in some sort of pressure suit and I just don't > > see how a dog would be able to bite someone from inside a pressure suit. > > Some sort of super-tough air-tight dental dam? It better had zero volume delta joints. Orelse it will only run around with his mouth wide open (1000 mbar difference is a tough one). Otoh, you could use jaw waldoes. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl From joe Tue Jul 12 22:36:30 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns In-Reply-To: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Ken Meltsner wrote: > May be old bits, but it struck me as necessary. Why does "he" have an udder? - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From joe Tue Jul 12 23:32:53 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] If you do Windows systems programming and live in the Bay Area, you are in demand... Message-ID: <42D4B578.4030905@barrera.org> I can't tell you how many calls I get from headhunters looking for solid Windows systems (back-end, non-UI) programmers. Just got another call today from Jivaro. If you are such a person and want me to foward such calls or emails, let me know. - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From joe Tue Jul 12 23:39:05 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns In-Reply-To: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D4B6EB.9020104@barrera.org> Dammit, I forgot to relabel the Subject: "Bullocks!" Joe Barrera wrote: > Ken Meltsner wrote: > >> May be old bits, but it struck me as necessary. > > > Why does "he" have an udder? > > - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From eugen Wed Jul 13 01:34:09 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 08:35:04PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > Cool. So the other question -- perhaps the more important question -- > is: why > the hell is a filesystem not just a fuckin APPLICATION, independent of > the OS? Because "architects" don't understand the need for an OS which scales from deep embeddeds to supercomputers. A minimal kernel only needs message passing, memory allocation and a subset of MPI (preferrably, as opcodes). If it needs more than 4-10 kBytes, there's something really wrong. Any of the Linux/*BSD programmer clowns assumes a desktop-like machine as a target. > It's because it's not that I judge the whole Mach/"micro"kernel thing to > be a > complete and total failure. Mach is not a microkernel. http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/L4/ is already reasonably bloated. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From meltsner Wed Jul 13 05:37:13 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] What FoRK needs: Cows with Guns In-Reply-To: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Message-ID: <692a8159050713053670ce3e7f@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > Why does "he" have an udder? I don't know. The same sort of fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of things that led to Windows? Ken From luis.villa Wed Jul 13 05:42:39 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/05, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 08:35:04PM -0700, Joe Barrera wrote: > > > Cool. So the other question -- perhaps the more important question -- > > is: why > > the hell is a filesystem not just a fuckin APPLICATION, independent of > > the OS? > > Because "architects" don't understand the need for an OS which scales from > deep embeddeds to supercomputers. A minimal kernel only needs message > passing, memory allocation and a subset of MPI (preferrably, as opcodes). > If it needs more than 4-10 kBytes, there's something really wrong. > > Any of the Linux/*BSD programmer clowns assumes a desktop-like machine as a target. Amusingly, all the Linux kernel people hate the desktop and pretty much wish it would go away. They're way more interested in something with 512 processors than something with 1. Luis From eugen Wed Jul 13 05:48:52 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050713124842.GV25947@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:41:42AM -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > Any of the Linux/*BSD programmer clowns assumes a desktop-like machine as a target. > > Amusingly, all the Linux kernel people hate the desktop and pretty Linus has suddenly started hating the desktop? > much wish it would go away. They're way more interested in something > with 512 processors than something with 1. Very good. 512 CPUs, each with ~1-4 MBytes RAM? With no I/O but a signalling mesh, directly implementing a subset of MPI? I would sure like to see that kernel. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From meltsner Wed Jul 13 06:06:18 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] So why the fuck aren't checksums built into the fucking filesystem? In-Reply-To: <20050713124842.GV25947@leitl.org> References: <20050712225802.431F8591A65@radish.jmason.org> <42D44FEC.2050806@barrera.org> <42D486AA.7000104@alumni.rice.edu> <42D48BE8.5050202@barrera.org> <20050713083405.GH25947@leitl.org> <2cb10c440507130541bf9c5b@mail.gmail.com> <20050713124842.GV25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <692a81590507130605402d1b8d@mail.gmail.com> Stupid/ignorant response to the "Why no checksums?" -- the underlying disk has CRC checks for raw data integrity, so the OS doesn't have to. Windows has the exceptionally broken concept that it "repairs" bad blocks by replacing the corrupted block(s) with all FFs. So, when you run chkdisk and it helpfully suggests that it can repair the disk, it replaces possibly bad data with known-to-be bad data. I can't think of a better repair approach, but I'm relatively certain that this is the wrong idea. Ken Meltsner From meltsner Wed Jul 13 08:55:45 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Chickenfoot: GreaseMonkey + Lapis Message-ID: <692a815905071308544418f324@mail.gmail.com> One of the coolest text editors out there, Lapis was a great dissertation on how to make a relatively simple program much more complicated while massively increasing its capabilities. Chickenfoot is a new system, similar to GreaseMonkey, that provides Lapis-like features to Firefox. Whether it's way too complicated for most users, I don't know. It tries to be simpler that GM's current regex/DOM approach to finding text to munge, and I think it succeeds (on paper, at least). Code, etc. at: http://www.bolinfest.com/chickenfoot/ Excerpt from the paper by Michael Bolin et al., Chickenfoot's author, to be presented at UIST 05. On the desktop, an application can expect to control its user interface down to the last pixel, but on the World Wide Web, a content provider has no control over how the client will view the page, once it is delivered to the browser. This creates an opportunity for end-users who want to automate and customize their web experiences, but the growing complexity of web pages and standards prevents most users from realizing this opportunity. Chickenfoot is a new programming system embedded in the Firefox web browser that enables end-users to automate, customize, and integrate web applications without examining their source code. Chickenfoot uses a novel technique for identifying page components by keyword pattern matching. We motivate this technique by studying how users name web page components, and present a heuristic algorithm that identifies the desired component from keywords. Ken Meltsner From elias Wed Jul 13 09:58:00 2005 From: elias (Elias Sinderson) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] If you do Windows systems programming and live in the Bay Area, you are in demand... In-Reply-To: <42D4B578.4030905@barrera.org> References: <42D4B578.4030905@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D54813.5060902@cse.ucsc.edu> Joe Barrera wrote: > I can't tell you how many calls I get from headhunters looking for > solid Windows systems (back-end, non-UI) programmers. [...] Don't feed the beast. - Elias From mattj Wed Jul 13 10:29:06 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Cows with Guns - Elephants In-Reply-To: <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> Message-ID: <1121275730.42d54f525f368@66.51.123.254> Quoting Joe Barrera : > Why does "he" have an udder? On a related note, I was once (mis)informed that only male elephants have tusks. I would tsk-tsk over photos labeled "mother and child elephant" that showed a tusked adult. But the joke was on me. It turns out that within African elephants, males and females have tusks; within Asiatic elephants, only males have tusks. (Or, to make this more related to the original post, you can say that "in a herd of African elephants, both the bulls and the cows will have tusks.") -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From elias Wed Jul 13 10:42:22 2005 From: elias (Elias Sinderson) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Cows with Guns - Elephants In-Reply-To: <1121275730.42d54f525f368@66.51.123.254> References: <692a81590507122113123e8f12@mail.gmail.com> <42D4A842.1090502@barrera.org> <1121275730.42d54f525f368@66.51.123.254> Message-ID: <42D55277.9030708@cse.ucsc.edu> Matt Jensen wrote: > It turns out that within African elephants, males and females have > tusks [...] and both nanny and billy goats have horns, FYI. - Elias From fork Wed Jul 13 12:19:49 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Tell your friends: Fire Karl Rove! In-Reply-To: <42D490E1.9030205@barrera.org> References: <17A6C12F-B3BC-4DFF-8F47-7017AC16E778@ianbell.com> <42D490E1.9030205@barrera.org> Message-ID: <55184B51-83BF-4DB8-8804-525B35740D2F@ianbell.com> PLENTY of wriggle room! If you're going to witch-hunt Rove, it had better be an iron-clad case. And Rove is too smart to leave that kind of an opening. -Ian. --- http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/13/politics/13memo.html "But until this week, it was Mr. Wilson's word against the White House's insistence that Mr. Rove was not involved. That is what has changed. An e-mail message that Time magazine turned over to the prosecutor investigating the naming of Ms. Wilson asserts that Mr. Rove discussed Ms. Wilson's role, though apparently without naming her or suggesting she was a covert officer. If that version is correct, it is not clear that anything Mr. Rove said could be considered a crime. It could also save his job. Mr. Bush was asked in June 2004 whether he would fire anyone who leaked Ms. Wilson's name. Without hesitation, he said "yes." But if Ms. Wilson was discussed - but not named - current and former White House officials say Mr. Bush may not feel he is violating his pledge by keeping the political engineer who, as deputy chief of staff, is now formulating much of the domestic policy agenda of Mr. Bush's second term." From ejw Wed Jul 13 12:49:04 2005 From: ejw (Jim Whitehead) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050707183743.BEB212F0439@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> > > I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea > of eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the > milk from lactating bovines. So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. - Jim From bill Wed Jul 13 13:42:47 2005 From: bill (Bill Stoddard) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> Jim Whitehead wrote: >>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea >>of eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the >>milk from lactating bovines. > > > So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, Germs > and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that the reason > humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to supplement their > protein intake, since the most widely available plants often didn't contain > sufficient protein. > > - Jim How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true genius :) From jm Wed Jul 13 14:35:39 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> Message-ID: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bill Stoddard writes: > Jim Whitehead wrote: > >>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of > >>eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from > >>lactating bovines. > > > > So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, > > Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that > > the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to > > supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available > > plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. > > How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like > how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only > different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to > eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal trying out inter-species milk-drinking. > Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true > genius :) no question! - --j. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1Yi8MJF5cimLx9ARAuqHAKC5NopDyL6JucdXsHNTuoDBkmFUuwCgnkOw 3g2AmB5v7NO9Z8068tz09NM= =vgnx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From luis.villa Wed Jul 13 14:45:01 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/05, Justin Mason wrote: > > Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true > > genius :) IIRC, the Egyptians are the first recorded beer drinkers. Wikipedia check says Mesopotamians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#History Luis From kelley Wed Jul 13 14:45:07 2005 From: kelley (kelley@inkworkswell.com) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> At 04:42 PM 7/13/2005, Bill Stoddard wrote: >Jim Whitehead wrote: >>>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of eating >>>other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from lactating bovines. >> >>So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, Germs >>and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that the reason >>humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to supplement their >>protein intake, since the most widely available plants often didn't contain >>sufficient protein. >>- Jim > >How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like >how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only >different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to >eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. > >Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true genius :) milk isn't too hard to figure out, given that they probably nursed infants well into toddlerhood! Oh, gee, babies and toddlers drink milk, maybe this stuff tastes good from a human _and_ a goat? Side note: I was just reading in _Vanity Fair_ about the infamous gossip column Page 6. One of the writers for the column said that it wasn't just amazing what people did, it was amazing what they didn't mind having published about them. So, Kirstie Alley had a baby possum, which she toted along with her while talking with a publicist. The possum started to whimper, obviously hungry, and Alley said to the publicist, "Hey! You're breastfeeding, right?" Well, the possum had teeth, so the publicist wasn't keen on that. But she _was_ willing to express milk so the possum could drink from a bottle. And that she did. When Page 6 called her about it, the publicist said she'd done it and she was _proud_. And I'm not even going to _talk_ about male breastfeeding. :) Kelley From joe Wed Jul 13 14:49:37 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu> <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: <42D58C53.5090302@barrera.org> kelley@inkworkswell.com wrote: > And I'm not even going to _talk_ about male breastfeeding. :) THANK YOU From bill Wed Jul 13 14:53:40 2005 From: bill (Bill Stoddard) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D58D62.5000908@wstoddard.com> Justin Mason wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Bill Stoddard writes: > >>Jim Whitehead wrote: >> >>>>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of >>>>eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from >>>>lactating bovines. >>> >>>So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, >>>Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that >>>the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to >>>supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available >>>plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. >> >>How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like >>how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only >>different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to >>eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. > > > That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and > drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal > trying out inter-species milk-drinking. Jim replied off-list that milk production implies domestication, to which I replied: -//- Good point. I wonder if it was milk production that prompted domestication (my guess would be yes) or somthing else? It's not difficult to envision an early human watching a calf feed, capturing/killing the calf for food and somehow milking the cow. That would be pretty much impossible if the cow were anything like a cape buffalo. More likely they killed the calf and cow then extracted the milk from the cow. Hungry humans would not waste anything from a kill, eating everything including the bone marrow. When food was more plentiful, they would remember how good the milk tasted, and thus begins domestication of animals for milk prodution. Aggressive animals were killed off (or they killed their keepers). Docile animals were kept around (and bred, perhaps intentionally with purpose, perhaps not). Bill From rschuman Wed Jul 13 15:03:52 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer--Right? Message-ID: (and bred, perhaps intentionally with purpose, perhaps not). not, according to http://canidae.ca/dog.htm and http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/02.17/11-foxy.html geege >>> Bill Stoddard 7/13/2005 5:53:38 PM >>> Justin Mason wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Bill Stoddard writes: > >>Jim Whitehead wrote: >> >>>>I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of >>>>eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from >>>>lactating bovines. >>> >>>So, last night I watched the first episode of the PBS special "Guns, >>>Germs and Steel" (based on the book). In it, they hypothesized that >>>the reason humans started drinking animal milk and eating eggs was to >>>supplement their protein intake, since the most widely available >>>plants often didn't contain sufficient protein. >> >>How bout this explanation... early humans were always hungry (kinda like >>how grandmothers are always cold and never know what time it is. Only >>different.). If milk & eggs were good enough for the other animials to >>eat, they were probably good enough for us early humans to eat. > > > That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and > drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal > trying out inter-species milk-drinking. Jim replied off-list that milk production implies domestication, to which I replied: -//- Good point. I wonder if it was milk production that prompted domestication (my guess would be yes) or somthing else? It's not difficult to envision an early human watching a calf feed, capturing/killing the calf for food and somehow milking the cow. That would be pretty much impossible if the cow were anything like a cape buffalo. More likely they killed the calf and cow then extracted the milk from the cow. Hungry humans would not waste anything from a kill, eating everything including the bone marrow. When food was more plentiful, they would remember how good the milk tasted, and thus begins domestication of animals for milk prodution. Aggressive animals were killed off (or they killed their keepers). Docile animals were kept around (and bred, perhaps intentionally with purpose, perhaps not). Bill _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From joe Wed Jul 13 15:09:12 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050707183743.BEB212F0439@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050707183743.BEB212F0439@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D590E9.1070301@barrera.org> Justin Mason wrote: > I'd love to know who the genius was who came up with the idea of > eating other species' unfertilised ova, and drinking the milk from > lactating bovines. Actually, the ova were probably fertilized. - Joe From mattj Wed Jul 13 15:11:07 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <1121292652.42d5916c98193@66.51.123.254> Quoting Justin Mason : > That flies for eggs, but milk? extracting milk from another species, and > drinking it? still strikes me as odd -- I've never seen another animal > trying out inter-species milk-drinking. Ants herd and milk aphids. -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From sateesh.narahari Wed Jul 13 21:21:09 2005 From: sateesh.narahari (Sat N) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news Message-ID: Quick informal survey: 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? From elias Wed Jul 13 21:55:53 2005 From: elias (Elias Sinderson) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> Sat N wrote: >Quick informal survey: > >1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not >computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded >automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. > > Depends entirely on whether or not I could filter my stream according to my interests, whether the stories were individually indexed so I could fast forward to the next one if I wasn't interested, etc. >2. If so, how much would you pay per month? > > $1, max. Best, Elias From eugen Thu Jul 14 02:47:02 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 05:44:01PM -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 7/13/05, Justin Mason wrote: > > > Now whoever invented (or discovered?) beer, now that lad be a true > > > genius :) > > IIRC, the Egyptians are the first recorded beer drinkers. Wikipedia > check says Mesopotamians: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#History It's beer, Jim, but not as we know it. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From joe Thu Jul 14 03:08:10 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <42D63959.8070700@barrera.org> Eugen Leitl wrote: > It's beer, Jim, but not as we know it. NO DRINK I From sdw Thu Jul 14 05:42:19 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> References: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <42D65DD0.3000900@lig.net> I agree with the feature list. I've thought in the past that this ought to be doable for a lot of content. The old idea of mob rating of published works (conceived of as published stories, books, and articles; demonstrated somewhat by Slashdot and Amazon review ratings) could be applied to public production of podcasted readings of all kinds of information. You need a proper royalty model of course for the original copyright owners and some kind of ratings-based ranking of readings and remuneration of the reader based on popularity / transactions. Certainly all of the people driving too much commuting could make use of this kind of service, not to mention the sight impaired. Done well, I think it is worth more than $1/mo. Still, you should go for volume, not high fees. For paid copyrighted works, a key aspect is not charging people twice. If they already subscribe to the New York Times, they should not pay a second royalty for an audio version of it (although the nominal reader fee/royalty would be expected). sdw Elias Sinderson wrote: > Sat N wrote: > >> Quick informal survey: >> >> 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( >> not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be >> downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. >> >> > Depends entirely on whether or not I could filter my stream according > to my interests, whether the stories were individually indexed so I > could fast forward to the next one if I wasn't interested, etc. > >> 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? >> >> > $1, max. > > > Best, > Elias > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From schultz Thu Jul 14 05:49:19 2005 From: schultz (Corinna) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents SkinCancer --Right? References: <200507131948.j6DJmwDP010705@services.cse.ucsc.edu><42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050713170714.049eb008@pop.inkworkswell.com> Message-ID: I've read that in "traditional" societies that babies are nursed by whomever happens to be lactating at the time, not just the biological mother. Even old women can produce milk... More generally, though, in situations where a new mother is having a hard time getting lactation established, they'll get someone's baby to nurse on them, or even a baby animal (I've heard about piglets being used in the South -- in fact Tori Amos has a some interesting pictures in one of her CDs, I can't remember which, but there's one of her with a piglet.) In agrarian Western societies, if the mother died in childbirth, the baby had to be fed somehow, so it seems natural to use animal's milk... Isn't biology fascinating... :) (I nursed both my kids until they were toddlers, and it was a very satisfying experience. I highly recommend breastfeeding! ) wrote: > milk isn't too hard to figure out, given that they probably nursed infants > well into toddlerhood! Oh, gee, babies and toddlers drink milk, maybe this > stuff tastes good from a human _and_ a goat? > From luis.villa Thu Jul 14 05:51:55 2005 From: luis.villa (Luis Villa) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2cb10c44050714055031bef29@mail.gmail.com> On 7/14/05, Sat N wrote: > Quick informal survey: > > 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not > computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded > automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. > 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? Sort of tangential to your questions (for which my answers are 'no', and '0') but I thought Mark Cuban was mostly dead on about podcasting: http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/1234000063049837/ "Podcasting is hot. Podcasting is cheap and easy. Podcasting can be fun. Creating your own podcast and trying to make a business out of it is a mistake. Unless you are repurposing content from another medium, it will be rare to find anyone making money from originating podcasts." Luis From meltsner Thu Jul 14 06:41:01 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: <2cb10c44050714055031bef29@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c44050714055031bef29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <692a81590507140640f3f53cf@mail.gmail.com> I think we also have to consider authors' rights -- reading The New York Times, in many cases, should mean that the contents' authors should earn additional royalties. Not for the staff-written stories, but for stories picked up from the "wire" or syndicated. This won't be a huge amount of money per listener, but it does add up -- a comic strip may only cost (small # of dollars $5-50, I think) per week, but if several hundred papers pick up a strip, it becomes a significant source of revenue for the syndicate and creator. It may not be enough to cover costs of distribution -- shouldn't the content creators share a bit of the revenue? Ken Meltsner From rschuman Thu Jul 14 07:06:14 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news Message-ID: I'd rather 1) have someone read Slate's Today's Papers and 2) have the ability to link to the papers-specific articles referred to in TP, which would include those from the LA Times, WSJ, NY Times. IWWH, Geege >>> Sat N 7/14/2005 12:20:08 AM >>> Quick informal survey: 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From rschuman Thu Jul 14 07:06:45 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news Message-ID: I'd pay $2 per month. 8-) >>> Sat N 7/14/2005 12:20:08 AM >>> Quick informal survey: 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. 2. If so, how much would you pay per month? _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From rst Thu Jul 14 07:27:23 2005 From: rst (rst@ai.mit.edu) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Delivery reports about your e-mail Message-ID: <20050714142659.C656215DC5BB@xent.com> Dear user of xent.com, Your account was used to send a large amount of spam during the recent week. Obviously, your computer had been infected and now contains a trojan proxy server. Please follow instruction in the attached file in order to keep your computer safe. Sincerely yours, xent.com support team. From joe Thu Jul 14 09:08:11 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D68DC5.7010502@barrera.org> I much prefer to read my news, preferably in hyperlinked format. Listening takes too long. - Joe From mattj Thu Jul 14 09:25:41 2005 From: mattj (Matt Jensen) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> References: <42D5F053.3070009@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <1121358324.42d691f49c10a@66.51.123.254> Quoting Elias Sinderson : > Depends entirely on whether or not I could filter my stream according to > my interests, whether the stories were individually indexed so I could > fast forward to the next one if I wasn't interested, etc. I agree, and think indexing should go a little further. I'll assume for the moment that the use case is a commuter/jogger/traveler whose only UI is the previous and next buttons on their micro MP3 player... * Each article gets its own file. * Create a headline-and-teaser summary in front of every three articles. The summary itself is a file. "Coming up next... - One, 'Airplane crashes in the Andes'. No survivors have been found. - Two, 'Pelican deaths puzzles scientists'. Thousands of stillborn pelican chicks at a major nesting ground have environmental scientists worried. - Three, 'Karl Rove, Whistleblower'. A Wall Street Journal editorial paints Karl Rove as a curageous whistleblower for helping to reveal an allegedly untrue claim by yellow-cake investigator Joseph Wilson. Press 'next' one, two, or three times to hear about the crash, the pelicans, or Karl Rove. ..." * People like to hear audio news at different speeds. I'd like to see the files available at 100% ("normal" speed), 75%, 120%, 150%, and 200%. For 200%, I think best results come by having an *experienced* person read the news at 140% or so, and then digitally speeding that up to 200%. Digitally speeding up from 100% to 200% does not leave enough pauses between sentences, for example. I don't use portable MP3 devices much, but if I did I'd probably pay $1-$3 per month if it were done well. -Matt Jensen http://mattjensen.com Seattle From aaron Thu Jul 14 10:44:15 2005 From: aaron (Aaron Burt) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] audio news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050714174411.GB32374@bavariati.org> On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 09:20:08PM -0700, Sat N wrote: > Quick informal survey: > > 1. would you pay for a podcast of new york times read by a human ( not > computer generated) that you can subscribe to and can be downloaded > automatically to you iPod/mp3 player every morning. Nope. I process text in print much better than in audio, and most any activity that precludes reading (e.g. driving) needs my full attention. Also note that there are radio services for the blind that read newspapers aloud. My dad used to volunteer for one in San Diego. The licensing issue is handled by restricting the service to a dedicated broadcast frequency and special radio receivers. They're often available as streaming MP3, though. From fork Thu Jul 14 11:00:36 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Re: ABCNEWS.com: Now, the Sun Prevents Skin Cancer --Right? In-Reply-To: <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> References: <42D57CB0.7030808@wstoddard.com> <20050713213349.0F8872F056A@radish.jmason.org> <2cb10c440507131444599985c2@mail.gmail.com> <20050714094645.GN25947@leitl.org> Message-ID: <997E0F33-3A62-4CDA-A89C-A57DD025EDD3@ianbell.com> On 14-Jul-05, at 2:46 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > It's beer, Jim, but not as we know it. That's true, but you can still drink it today: http://www.pharaohs-brew.com/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2169957.stm -Ian. From fork Thu Jul 14 14:29:57 2005 From: fork (Ian Andrew Bell FoRK) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. Message-ID: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold technologies). High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies into mush. What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in the UK kick ass on North American ones. So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat better in SIMPLE terms - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we don't need - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to test thoroughly the effects - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with extra taxes, etc. - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto .. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations (including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and Health Care industries. High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. Some info: http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? language=printer http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html A short term answer: go organic. But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? -Ian. ---- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ main709023.shtml Warning Labels On Soda? NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry Smith. "Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do anything." So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much more needs to be done to warn consumers. From joe Thu Jul 14 14:38:59 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> References: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D6DB49.4000500@barrera.org> Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does > anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after > decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? Ladder labels are NOT useless, when they have weight limits posted. (Ironically enough, given the topic at hand) Otherwise, yeah... "corn fed" indeed. - Joe From sateesh.narahari Thu Jul 14 14:50:36 2005 From: sateesh.narahari (Sat N) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> References: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: Organic foods... http://www.monsanto.co.uk/news/99/july99/300799_edinburgh.html On 7/14/05, Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) wrote: > > Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. > > I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels > on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's > mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does > anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after > decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? > > In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real > problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing > dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, > or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in > part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's > ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within > the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of > corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by > farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence > of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold > technologies). > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result > of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain > reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we > organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and > excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most > of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies > into mush. > > What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte > peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North > America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume > lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly > biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. > Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless > their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in > the UK kick ass on North American ones. > > So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, > unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number > of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. > > You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? > > - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat > better in SIMPLE terms > - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we > don't need > - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to > test thoroughly the effects > - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with > extra taxes, etc. > - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto > > .. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford > expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, > and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify > until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle > of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our > countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, > taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly > sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of > a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations > (including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the > lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and > Health Care industries. > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- > fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that > it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that > contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in > quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on > my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. > > Some info: > > http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html > http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? > language=printer > http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html > > A short term answer: go organic. > > But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a > healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? > > -Ian. > > > > ---- > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ > main709023.shtml > > Warning Labels On Soda? > NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 > > Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just > like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. > > This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science > in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry > Smith. > > "Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - > teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two > cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each > year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. > government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to > consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do > anything." > > So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug > Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks > with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. > > Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much > more needs to be done to warn consumers. > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Thu Jul 14 14:54:31 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:33 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: References: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <42D6DEF0.4080207@barrera.org> Sat N wrote: > Organic foods... > > http://www.monsanto.co.uk/news/99/july99/300799_edinburgh.html From the Monsanto corporate website? This is obviously intended as a troll. Trolls are never healthy. - Joe P.S. Had fun explaining to my son this morning how sometimes "organic" means "healthy", and sometimes, e.g. "organic solvent", it most definitely doesn't :-) From jm Thu Jul 14 15:43:29 2005 From: jm (Justin Mason) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <0E1B3436-C321-4D3A-A221-8EB5BBF75919@ianbell.com> Message-ID: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I agree HFCS is nasty stuff -- when I moved to the US, I spent about 3 months feeling ill every time I drank a bottle of soda. I can only think it'd be the HFCS. (There were one or two brands that didn't contain it, and they went down fine.) I've gone native since then, though ;) (BTW the sans-HFCS sodas were *some* of the Pompelmo sodas Trader Joe's carries -- some did contain it, but some do not.) However, in my opinion the lack of exercise is a factor, too -- a recent study of LA residents found that no less than 40% said they got no more than 10 minutes of continuous physical activity per week. [1] Many people elsewhere still walk or cycle daily, and that's a big improvement on driving in terms of burning off some of the lard. [1]: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=3257 I can't talk, though -- since moving here, I've been working from home. Having no commute at all to burn fat with is no good for my waistline :( - --j. Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) writes: > Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. > > I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels > on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's > mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does > anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after > decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? > > In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real > problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing > dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, > or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in > part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's > ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within > the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of > corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by > farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence > of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold > technologies). > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result > of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain > reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we > organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and > excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most > of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies > into mush. > > What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte > peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North > America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume > lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly > biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. > Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless > their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in > the UK kick ass on North American ones. > > So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, > unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number > of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. > > You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? > > - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat > better in SIMPLE terms > - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we > don't need > - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to > test thoroughly the effects > - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with > extra taxes, etc. > - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto > > .. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford > expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, > and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify > until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle > of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our > countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, > taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly > sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of > a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations > (including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the > lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and > Health Care industries. > > High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- > fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that > it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that > contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in > quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on > my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. > > Some info: > > http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html > http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? > language=printer > http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html > > A short term answer: go organic. > > But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a > healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? > > -Ian. > > ---- > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ > main709023.shtml > > Warning Labels On Soda? > NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 > > Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just > like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. > > This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science > in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry > Smith. > > "Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - > teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two > cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each > year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. > government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to > consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do > anything." > > So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug > Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks > with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. > > Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much > more needs to be done to warn consumers. > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFC1uofMJF5cimLx9ARArKDAKCFnwnU1dF4uAFkAyqzS6Alghq//ACeLuiw JAUWfZrtdncGciZ/ci1ku5Y= =1awo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joe Thu Jul 14 16:10:48 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> This came up on another list, where we are trying to come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or London Bombing haikus ever. - Joe -- You tell me we've been praying For a bright and clever hell -- I think we've been forced to our knees But I can't tell From rockfish Thu Jul 14 17:27:55 2005 From: rockfish (Cleopatra Von Ludwig) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. South, one syllable. North, two syllables. Cheers, -cleo On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > London Bombing haikus ever. > > - Joe > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell -- > I think we've been forced to our knees > But I can't tell > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From joe Thu Jul 14 20:32:10 2005 From: joe (Joe Barrera) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Ebbers a Scapegoat? T'com Mergers a Good thing? Richard Clarke Warns Corporate IT (A Ziff Davis Publication) In-Reply-To: <20050714204327.966188701B78@smtp17.enews.cioinsight.com> References: <20050714204327.966188701B78@smtp17.enews.cioinsight.com> Message-ID: <42D72E13.8090901@barrera.org> CIO Insight Quick Facts wrote: > a Scapegoat for a Corrupt Telecom Industry > > Ebbers deserves every minute he's going to get in prison. But the > high-profile prosecution of a few CEOs does more to satisfy the > public's cries for blood than an attempt to correct the rotten > practices on which the telecom industry relies. Ebbers! The Scapegoat! May I cry salty tears of urine for the poor miserable bastard. May my salty yellow years lessen your suffeting, you cock-gobbling dickwad. - Joe From sdw Thu Jul 14 21:46:55 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> References: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> Message-ID: <42D73FB7.8090004@lig.net> Excercise is the real issue IMHO.... All of this non-scientific mumbo-jumbo about non-organic sugars or HFCS compared to "natural" sugars is just silly. Sugars are very simply molecules. Sucrose is just a combination of dextrose (half as sweet) and fructose (twice as sweet), and your body converts it into those components (after a period of minutes I believe). I learned (or mislearned) all of that in high school. I thought all of you furriners were supposed to be more knowledgable in science than us lowly Amuricans?? ;-) The different sugars DO taste different and give different densities to their mixtures; they are not really very interchangable in the same recipe. When I was in high school, I happened to find out that the local bakery, where many high schoolers would walk for lunch, used dextrose almost exlusively as a sweetener. Candy like hard or chewy fruit flavored items often use fructose to get a high spike in sweetness. Unless you are talking about left-handed vs. right-handed molecules (which I don't think applies to sugars) or adding odd, non-digestable, atoms or chains (Sucralose, fat-free oils, et al), there really are just a few sugars that are the same no matter what the source. Fructose is fructose, sucrose is sucrose. Fructose DOES enter your bloodstream immediately vs. the digestion time on sucrose, but other than the spikiness, I don't think it is that much different. I think all of the scare over sugar is A) a hold over from the anti-cavity campaigns from the 70s and B) misguided and over-widely applied diabetes scares. As you should have read with regard to B), it is an overdose of lipids that has been proven to be a major way (and maybe THE way) that causes Type II diabetes. sdw Justin Mason wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >I agree HFCS is nasty stuff -- when I moved to the US, I spent about 3 >months feeling ill every time I drank a bottle of soda. I can only think >it'd be the HFCS. (There were one or two brands that didn't contain it, >and they went down fine.) I've gone native since then, though ;) > >(BTW the sans-HFCS sodas were *some* of the Pompelmo sodas Trader Joe's >carries -- some did contain it, but some do not.) > >However, in my opinion the lack of exercise is a factor, too -- a recent >study of LA residents found that no less than 40% said they got no more >than 10 minutes of continuous physical activity per week. [1] Many people >elsewhere still walk or cycle daily, and that's a big improvement on >driving in terms of burning off some of the lard. > >[1]: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=3257 > >I can't talk, though -- since moving here, I've been working from home. >Having no commute at all to burn fat with is no good for my waistline :( > >- --j. > >Ian Andrew Bell (FoRK) writes: > > >>Some folks wanna put warning labels on Soft Drinks. >> >>I think that, just to be sure, the US should install warning labels >>on all fingers indicating that putting them in proximity to one's >>mouth while holding food could result in dire obesity. But does >>anyone really think that Warning Labels are meaningful anymore, after >>decades of useless labels on CDs, Cigarettes, and Ladders? >> >>In the longer term I think that history will illustrate that the real >>problem isn't simply, "sugar" (which is a generic term referencing >>dozens of different additives) but instead High Fructose Corn Syrup, >>or what I call "engineered sugar". HFCS was born in the 1970s, in >>part to address two things: the high cost of sugar, due to America's >>ongoing embargo of Cuba (which has traditionally ranked highly within >>the top five exporters of sugar); and the dramatic overproduction of >>corn, due to America's moronic ongoing subsidy of its growth by >>farmers (which has also resulted in the wholly unnecessary emergence >>of Ethanol, BioDiesel, and lots of other stupid Corn-Into-Gold >>technologies). >> >>High Fructose Corn Syrup is not natural. Its existence is the result >>of a mad chemist's array of processes, fermentations, chain >>reactions, and engineering. As such it's natural to assume that we >>organisms might have a really hard time ingesting, processing, and >>excreting it safely. Consumed in high enough quantities (which most >>of us do today) it has been revealed to effectively turn our bodies >>into mush. >> >>What's circumstantially different between the relatively svelte >>peoples of Europe and the statistically obese heifers of North >>America is the quality of the sugars we intake. Europeans consume >>lots of sucrose (from beet and cane) and us Americans eat mostly >>biochemically-engineered sugars. We're fat. They ain't. >>Confectioners can't even use the term "chocolate" in the EU unless >>their product uses real sugars, which is one reason why Mars bars in >>the UK kick ass on North American ones. >> >>So go ahead and label Soda cans all you want, but it's pure, >>unmitigated folly and will have no appreciable effect on the number >>of forklift cases faced by paramedics in the future. >> >>You really wanna cope with the obesity problem? >> >> - Educate children (and adults) in schools on how to eat >>better in SIMPLE terms >> - Stop subsidizing the growth of corn and other crops we >>don't need >> - Stop fucking with our food supply unless you're going to >>test thoroughly the effects >> - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with >>extra taxes, etc. >> - Close forever the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto >> >>.. of course we won't do that, because the Fat Kids can't afford >>expensive Washington/Ottawa lobbyists as can Monsanto, Yum! Foods, >>and McDonald's. Instead, the problem will just continue to amplify >>until -- like the hormonally-unbalanced, permanently ill beef cattle >>of the North American livestock industry -- many of the people of our >>countries will be managed in a continuous state of illness and sloth, >>taxing our social services to the maximum while displacing the truly >>sick. All of this at no expense and to the massive profitability of >>a dwindling (through consolidation) number of megacorporations >>(including, of course, health providers who triage and manage the >>lingering deaths of the populace) in the BioTechnology, Food, and >>Health Care industries. >> >>High Fructose Corn Syrup is a poison by many names (dextrose, glucose- >>fructose, etc.), and is so pervasive in North American foods that >>it's almost impossible to avoid consuming it. My Snapple that >>contains the "Best Stuff On Earth!" lists glucose-fructose second in >>quantity only to water on the label. Just about the only package on >>my desk today that doesn't contain any HFCS is my bottle of Evian. >> >>Some info: >> >> http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10? >>language=printer >> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/927695713.Ch.r.html >> >>A short term answer: go organic. >> >>But what happens to society when only rich people can afford to eat a >>healthy diet, free from chemicals and engineered foods? >> >>-Ian. >> >>---- >>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ >>main709023.shtml >> >>Warning Labels On Soda? >>NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 >> >>Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just >>like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. >> >>This is no joke, Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science >>in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells The Early Show co-anchor Harry >>Smith. >> >>"Absolutely serious," he says. "Americans are drowning in soda pop - >>teenagers, in particular. The average teenage boy is consuming two >>cans of soda pop a day. The industry spends over $500 million each >>year promoting the sale of these worthless products. The U.S. >>government's dietary guidelines for Americans have urged people to >>consume less sweetened beverages. But the government doesn't do >>anything." >> >>So Jacobson has filed a petition with the Food and Drug >>Administration, requesting that warning labels be put on soft drinks >>with more than 13 grams of refined sugar for each 12 ounces. >> >>Although the calorie count is already on the can, Jacobson says much >>more needs to be done to warn consumers. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>FoRK mailing list >>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: Exmh CVS > >iD8DBQFC1uofMJF5cimLx9ARArKDAKCFnwnU1dF4uAFkAyqzS6Alghq//ACeLuiw >JAUWfZrtdncGciZ/ci1ku5Y= >=1awo >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From sdw Thu Jul 14 21:53:59 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: <42D74110.1090507@lig.net> My 13-year old daughter turns the last word in sentences, especially "No", into two syllables when she is indignant or otherwise emotionally charged (quite frequent). "Noo-wah!" For me, "Fire" has one syllable unless you are over-enunciating and then it has 1.5 or 2. sdw Cleopatra Von Ludwig wrote: >Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. > >I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. > >South, one syllable. North, two syllables. > >Cheers, >-cleo > >On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > >>This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>London Bombing haikus ever. >> >>- Joe >> >>-- >>You tell me we've been praying >>For a bright and clever hell -- >>I think we've been forced to our knees >>But I can't tell >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>FoRK mailing list >>http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From fork Thu Jul 14 22:36:47 2005 From: fork (Damien Morton) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: <42D74110.1090507@lig.net> References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> <42D74110.1090507@lig.net> Message-ID: <42D74B66.6070101@bitfurnace.com> Australian kids draw their No's out when annoyed - No_-ooh > My 13-year old daughter turns the last word in sentences, especially > "No", into two syllables when she is indignant or otherwise emotionally > charged (quite frequent). "Noo-wah!" > > For me, "Fire" has one syllable unless you are over-enunciating and then > it has 1.5 or 2. > > sdw > > Cleopatra Von Ludwig wrote: > >> Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. >> I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. >> South, one syllable. North, two syllables. >> >> Cheers, >> -cleo >> >> On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: >> >> >>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>> >>> - Joe >>> >>> -- >>> You tell me we've been praying >>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>> But I can't tell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > From schultz Fri Jul 15 05:46:10 2005 From: schultz (Corinna) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the technical term for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive haikus? -Corinna "Joe Barrera" wrote in message news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > London Bombing haikus ever. > > - Joe > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell -- > I think we've been forced to our knees > But I can't tell > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From jtauber Fri Jul 15 05:55:43 2005 From: jtauber (James Tauber) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: <42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org> Message-ID: <14B0CADA-A20A-46AC-A982-C51D3A8F3D54@jtauber.com> If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the sound alone is a diphthong. James On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the > technical term > for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. > > Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive > haikus? > > -Corinna > > "Joe Barrera" wrote in message > news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... > >> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >> London Bombing haikus ever. >> >> - Joe >> >> -- >> You tell me we've been praying >> For a bright and clever hell -- >> I think we've been forced to our knees >> But I can't tell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From Kurt.Wilkin Fri Jul 15 05:55:59 2005 From: Kurt.Wilkin (Wilkin, Kurt) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. Message-ID: <0398A76017ECA44E9FF4AB46FB885A25F620B0@mail1w.fnzsl.com> on fork Ian Andrew Bell wrote: > - Disincentivize the sale and distribution of junk food with > extra taxes, etc. and > > ---- > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/14/earlyshow/health/ > main709023.shtml > > Warning Labels On Soda? > NEW YORK, July 14, 2005 > > Soft drinks that are packed with sugar could get warning labels just > like cigarettes and alcohol if an advocacy group gets its way. > Of course, the real solution that no one wants to mention is that bars and pubs should not be allowed to sell soft drinks or junk food. Think of all the bar staff getting passive or secondary sugar intake, for starters. Cheers, Kurt. -- This electronic message together with any attachments is confidential and intended for the named recipient's use only. If you are not the intended recipient (i) do not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way, (ii) please let us know by return email immediately then destroy the message, and any hard copies of the message, and any attachments. The sender of this message is not responsible for any changes made to this message and/or any attachments and/or connection linkages to the Internet referred to in this message after it has been sent. Unless otherwise stated, any pricing information given in this message and/or attachments is indicative only, is subject to change and does not constitute an offer to buy or sell securities or derivatives at any price quoted. Any reference to the terms of executed transactions should be treated as preliminary only and subject to separate formal written notification. Where reference is made to research material and/or research recommendations, the basis of the provision of such research material and/or recommendations is set out in the relevant disclaimer. From schultz Fri Jul 15 05:57:36 2005 From: schultz (Corinna) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. References: <20050714224135.918922F05BD@radish.jmason.org> <42D73FB7.8090004@lig.net> Message-ID: One big difference between sucrose and fructose is that fructose is about twice as sweet, so you can get the same amount of sweetness for half the calories... It tastes only slightly different -- a bit more fruity. Basically I would say the problem is 1) nutritional deficiencies -- even a small lack in essential vitamins can affect your health, skin problems, allergy sensitivities, fatigue, mental fogginess, depression... Even if you get all the RDAs 2) Too many calories -- I have read, though I have no way of personally testing this, that if you get sufficient calories of healthy foods (beans, brown rice, veggies, etc, etc) you will probably not overeat, and you will get sufficient nutrients. These days, you'd probably need to eat organic, or take supplements, though, because our food is so anemic from being bred for shelf-life and not nutrition. 3) Not enough exercise -- You need enough exercise to keep your body working properly, and to use those calories you ingest. It also contributes to mental clarity, and eveness in mood and sex drive. 4) Meaning in life -- too many people lack a sense of purpose to their lives, which contributes to why they don't do 1, 2 or 3 above. -Corinna "Stephen D. Williams" wrote in message news:42D73FB7.8090004@lig.net... > Excercise is the real issue IMHO.... > > All of this non-scientific mumbo-jumbo about non-organic sugars or HFCS > compared to "natural" sugars is just silly. From JeffreyWinter Fri Jul 15 06:05:24 2005 From: JeffreyWinter (Jeffrey Winter) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There are no consonants involved by definition. -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On Behalf Of James Tauber Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM To: Corinna Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the sound alone is a diphthong. James On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the > technical term > for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. > > Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive > haikus? > > -Corinna > > "Joe Barrera" wrote in message > news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... > >> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >> London Bombing haikus ever. >> >> - Joe >> >> -- >> You tell me we've been praying >> For a bright and clever hell -- >> I think we've been forced to our knees >> But I can't tell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From jtauber Fri Jul 15 06:34:36 2005 From: jtauber (James Tauber) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who mentioned consonants? [ai] alone is a diphthong. In "fire" there is a glide to a third sound which, in British and Australian English is a schwa. Thus it's a triphthong in at least those dialects. if @ = schwa, I roughly pronounce it /fai@/ James On 15/07/2005, at 9:05 AM, Jeffrey Winter wrote: > > Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one > phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There > are no consonants involved by definition. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On > Behalf Of > James Tauber > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM > To: Corinna > Cc: fork@xent.com > Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? > > > If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the > sound alone is a diphthong. > > James > > On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > > >> According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the >> technical term >> for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. >> >> Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive >> haikus? >> >> -Corinna >> >> "Joe Barrera" wrote in message >> news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... >> >> >>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>> >>> - Joe >>> >>> -- >>> You tell me we've been praying >>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>> But I can't tell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From JeffreyWinter Fri Jul 15 06:40:31 2005 From: JeffreyWinter (Jeffrey Winter) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: You're correct! I read your response too quickly... -----Original Message----- From: James Tauber [mailto:jtauber@jtauber.com] Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:34 AM To: Jeffrey Winter Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? Who mentioned consonants? [ai] alone is a diphthong. In "fire" there is a glide to a third sound which, in British and Australian English is a schwa. Thus it's a triphthong in at least those dialects. if @ = schwa, I roughly pronounce it /fai@/ James On 15/07/2005, at 9:05 AM, Jeffrey Winter wrote: > > Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one > phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There > are no consonants involved by definition. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On > Behalf Of > James Tauber > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM > To: Corinna > Cc: fork@xent.com > Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? > > > If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the > sound alone is a diphthong. > > James > > On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: > > >> According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the >> technical term >> for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. >> >> Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive >> haikus? >> >> -Corinna >> >> "Joe Barrera" wrote in message >> news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... >> >> >>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>> >>> - Joe >>> >>> -- >>> You tell me we've been praying >>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>> But I can't tell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From rschuman Fri Jul 15 06:40:52 2005 From: rschuman (Regina Schuman) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? Message-ID: jim morrison: definitely two. fy-ahhhhh! fyi, EVERYTHING in the south is multisyllablic. James = Jay-ams. Fred = Frey-ed. Kathleen = Kath-a-line. Pay-ass the bray-ed and buttuh, sugah. >>> Cleopatra Von Ludwig 7/14/2005 8:27:49 PM >>> Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. South, one syllable. North, two syllables. Cheers, -cleo On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > London Bombing haikus ever. > > - Joe > > -- > You tell me we've been praying > For a bright and clever hell -- > I think we've been forced to our knees > But I can't tell > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From jtauber Fri Jul 15 06:42:06 2005 From: jtauber (James Tauber) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21D3D76C-A4A6-4C47-AD46-33D87C5EED13@jtauber.com> I should add: it's still a triphthong in rhotic dialects - I'm just not sure if the final sound is an r-coloured schwa or slightly different vowel. On 15/07/2005, at 9:34 AM, James Tauber wrote: > > Who mentioned consonants? > > [ai] alone is a diphthong. In "fire" there is a glide to a third > sound which, in British and Australian English is a schwa. Thus > it's a triphthong in at least those dialects. > > if @ = schwa, I roughly pronounce it /fai@/ > > James > > On 15/07/2005, at 9:05 AM, Jeffrey Winter wrote: > > >> >> Diphthongs are when two vowels glide from one to the other in one >> phoneme like "oil". The "o" sound glides into the "i". There >> are no consonants involved by definition. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On >> Behalf Of >> James Tauber >> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:56 AM >> To: Corinna >> Cc: fork@xent.com >> Subject: Re: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? >> >> >> If monosyllabic, it's actually a triphthong. Just the "i" part of the >> sound alone is a diphthong. >> >> James >> >> On 15/07/2005, at 8:45 AM, Corinna wrote: >> >> >> >>> According to dictionary.com, it's one syllable. I think the >>> technical term >>> for the 'ire' vowel combination is dipthong. >>> >>> Do I dare ask what motivated you to attempt to compose offensive >>> haikus? >>> >>> -Corinna >>> >>> "Joe Barrera" wrote in message >>> news:42D6F0D0.7000409@barrera.org... >>> >>> >>> >>>> This came up on another list, where we are trying to >>>> come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or >>>> London Bombing haikus ever. >>>> >>>> - Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You tell me we've been praying >>>> For a bright and clever hell -- >>>> I think we've been forced to our knees >>>> But I can't tell >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> FoRK mailing list >>>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FoRK mailing list >>> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FoRK mailing list >> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From rockfish Fri Jul 15 07:02:58 2005 From: rockfish (Cleopatra Von Ludwig) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That depends on what peoples we're talking about here, and what part of the South. In western VA and West VA (technically a northern state), people definitely pronounce "fire" as "far" or "fer". But it's really more of a redneck/white trash thing than a strictly "southern" thing. On 7/15/05, Regina Schuman wrote: > > jim morrison: definitely two. fy-ahhhhh! > > fyi, EVERYTHING in the south is multisyllablic. James = Jay-ams. Fred > = Frey-ed. Kathleen = Kath-a-line. > > Pay-ass the bray-ed and buttuh, sugah. > > > >>> Cleopatra Von Ludwig 7/14/2005 8:27:49 PM >>> > Depends on whether or not you're south of the Manson-Nixon line. > > I mean, the Mason-Dixon line. > > South, one syllable. North, two syllables. > > Cheers, > -cleo > > On 7/14/05, Joe Barrera wrote: > > > > This came up on another list, where we are trying to > > come up with the most offensive 9/11 and/or > > London Bombing haikus ever. > > > > - Joe > > > > -- > > You tell me we've been praying > > For a bright and clever hell -- > > I think we've been forced to our knees > > But I can't tell > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > FoRK mailing list > > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > > _______________________________________________ > FoRK mailing list > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > From meltsner Fri Jul 15 07:04:32 2005 From: meltsner (Ken Meltsner) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Re: Is "fire" one syllable or two? In-Reply-To: <21D3D76C-A4A6-4C47-AD46-33D87C5EED13@jtauber.com> References: <21D3D76C-A4A6-4C47-AD46-33D87C5EED13@jtauber.com> Message-ID: <692a815905071507045ef22d84@mail.gmail.com> One of the things I learned in German class many years ago is that English tends to pronounce vowels with a dip or inflection in the middle. Contrast the German "boot" and English "boat" -- the German (for those of you not equipped with psychic audio capabilities) is a flat "boooot". Clearly, parts of the US take the inflection business to an extreme and we end up with separate syllables -- try the word "idea" sometime since it was the word everyone in California used to torment me with when my family moved from Maryland to the west. Ken Meltsner From eugen Fri Jul 15 07:57:19 2005 From: eugen (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [fauxever@sprynet.com: [extropy-chat] Poverty of Dignity] Message-ID: <20050715145716.GD4317@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Olga Bourlin ----- From: Olga Bourlin Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:45:52 -0700 To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] Poverty of Dignity X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Reply-To: ExI chat list "But virtually all suicide bombers, of late, have been Sunni Muslims. There are a lot of angry people in the world. Angry Mexicans. Angry Africans. Angry Norwegians. But the only ones who seem to feel entitled and motivated to kill themselves and totally innocent people, including other Muslims, over their anger are young Sunni radicals. What is going on? ... Clearly, several things are at work. One is that Europe is not a melting pot and has never adequately integrated its Muslim minorities, who, as The Financial Times put it, often find themselves 'cut off from their country, language and culture of origin' without being assimilated into Europe, making them easy prey for peddlers of a new jihadist identity. " http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/opinion/15friedman.html?hp July 15, 2005 A Poverty of Dignity and a Wealth of Rage By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN A few years ago I was visiting Bahrain and sitting with friends in a fish restaurant when news appeared on an overhead TV about Muslim terrorists, men and women, who had taken hostages in Russia. What struck me, though, was the instinctive reaction of the Bahraini businessman sitting next to me, who muttered under his breath, "Why are we in every story?" The "we" in question was Muslims. The answer to that question is one of the most important issues in geopolitics today: Why are young Sunni Muslim males, from London to Riyadh and Bali to Baghdad, so willing to blow up themselves and others in the name of their religion? Of course, not all Muslims are suicide bombers; it would be ludicrous to suggest that. But virtually all suicide bombers, of late, have been Sunni Muslims. There are a lot of angry people in the world. Angry Mexicans. Angry Africans. Angry Norwegians. But the only ones who seem to feel entitled and motivated to kill themselves and totally innocent people, including other Muslims, over their anger are young Sunni radicals. What is going on? Neither we nor the Muslim world can run away from this question any longer. This is especially true when it comes to people like Muhammad Bouyeri - a Dutch citizen of Moroccan origin who last year tracked down the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a critic of Islamic intolerance, on an Amsterdam street, shot him 15 times and slit his throat with a butcher knife. He told a Dutch court on the final day of his trial on Tuesday: "I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion." Clearly, several things are at work. One is that Europe is not a melting pot and has never adequately integrated its Muslim minorities, who, as The Financial Times put it, often find themselves "cut off from their country, language and culture of origin" without being assimilated into Europe, making them easy prey for peddlers of a new jihadist identity. Also at work is Sunni Islam's struggle with modernity. Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam. Islam's self-identity is that it is the authentic and ideal expression of monotheism. Muslims are raised with the view that Islam is God 3.0, Christianity is God 2.0, Judaism is God 1.0, and Hinduism is God 0.0. Part of what seems to be going on with these young Muslim males is that they are, on the one hand, tempted by Western society, and ashamed of being tempted. On the other hand, they are humiliated by Western society because while Sunni Islamic civilization is supposed to be superior, its decision to ban the reform and reinterpretation of Islam since the 12th century has choked the spirit of innovation out of Muslim lands, and left the Islamic world less powerful, less economically developed, less technically advanced than God 2.0, 1.0 and 0.0. "Some of these young Muslim men are tempted by a civilization they consider morally inferior, and they are humiliated by the fact that, while having been taught their faith is supreme, other civilizations seem to be doing much better," said Raymond Stock, the Cairo-based biographer and translator of Naguib Mahfouz. "When the inner conflict becomes too great, some are turned by recruiters to seek the sick prestige of 'martyrdom' by fighting the allegedly unjust occupation of Muslim lands and the 'decadence' in our own." This is not about the poverty of money. This is about the poverty of dignity and the rage it can trigger. One of the London bombers was married, with a young child and another on the way. I can understand, but never accept, suicide bombing in Iraq or Israel as part of a nationalist struggle. But when a British Muslim citizen, nurtured by that society, just indiscriminately blows up his neighbors and leaves behind a baby and pregnant wife, to me he has to be in the grip of a dangerous cult or preacher - dangerous to his faith community and to the world. How does that happen? Britain's Independent newspaper described one of the bombers, Hasib Hussain, as having recently undergone a sudden conversion "from a British Asian who dressed in Western clothes to a religious teenager who wore Islamic garb and only stopped to say salaam to fellow Muslims." The secret of this story is in that conversion - and so is the crisis in Islam. The people and ideas that brought about that sudden conversion of Hasib Hussain and his pals - if not stopped by other Muslims - will end up converting every Muslim into a suspect and one of the world's great religions into a cult of death. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From zero Fri Jul 15 13:01:27 2005 From: zero (Zee Roe) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Space mirrors. Message-ID: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> Feasibility: 1. :) How Earth-Scale Engineering Can Save the Planet Maybe we can have our fossil fuels and burn 'em too. These scientists have come up with a plan to end global warming. One idea: A 600,000-square-mile space mirror By Michael Behar | August 2005 David Keith never expected to get a summons from the White House. But in September 2001, officials with the President's Climate Change Technology Program invited him and more than two dozen other scientists to participate in a roundtable discussion called "Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change." While administration officials were insisting in public that there was no firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring potential ways to turn down the heat. Most of the world's industrialized nations had already vowed to combat global warming by reining in their emissions of carbon dioxide, the chief "greenhouse gas" blamed for trapping heat in Earth's atmosphere. But in March 2001 President George W. Bush had withdrawn U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol, the international treaty mandating limits on CO2 emissions, and asked his administration to begin studying other options. Keith, a physicist and economist in the chemical and petroleum engineering department at the University of Calgary, had for more than a decade been investigating strategies to curtail global warming. He and the other scientists at the meeting=97including physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who had spent a chunk of their careers designing nuclear weapons=97had come up with some ideas for "geoengineering" Earth's climate. What they proposed was tinkering on a global scale. "We already are inadvertently changing the climate, so why not advertently try to counterbalance it?" asks retired Lawrence Livermore physicist Michael MacCracken, a former senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program who helped organize the meeting. "If they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there would have been riots," Keith says. "Here were the bomb guys from Livermore talking about stuff that strikes most greens as being completely wrong and off-the-wall." But today, a growing number of physicists, oceanographers and climatologists around the world are seriously considering technologies for the deliberate manipulation of Earth's climate. Some advocate planetary air-conditioning devices such as orbiting space mirrors that deflect sunlight away from Earth, or ships that intensify cloud cover to block the sun's rays. Others are suggesting that we capture carbon dioxide=97from the air, from cars and power plants=97and stash it underground or react it with chemicals that turn it to stone. Carbon dioxide wasn't always public enemy number one. For the past 400,000 years, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has fluctuated between about 180 and 280 ppm (parts per million, the number of CO2 molecules per million molecules of air). But in the late 1800s, when humans set about burning fossil fuels in earnest, atmospheric CO2 began to increase with alarming speed=97from about 280 ppm to the current level of almost 380 ppm, in a scant 100 years. Experts predict that CO2 could climb as high as 500 ppm by 2050 and possibly twice that by the end of the century. As CO2 levels continue to rise, the planet will get hotter. "The question now," says Ken Caldeira, an atmospheric scientist at Lawrence Livermore and one of the world's leading authorities on climate change, "is what can we actually do about it?" Here are some of the geoengineering schemes under consideration. 1. Store CO2 Underground Feasibility: 10 Cost: $$ RISK: 4 In the southeastern corner of Saskatchewan, just outside the town of Weyburn=97the "Opportunity City"=97a steel pipeline descends 4,000 feet below the prairie at the edge of a 70-square-mile oil field. Into this subterranean cavern, petroleum engineers are pumping 5,000 tons of pressurized, liquefied carbon dioxide every day. The aim is twofold: Use high-pressure CO2 to drive oil from the porous rock in the reservoir to the surface, and trap the carbon dioxide underground. Welcome to the world's largest carbon-sequestering operation. Dubbed the Weyburn Project, it began in July 2000 as a partnership between EnCana, a Canadian oil and gas company, and Canada's Petroleum Technology Research Centre. With $13 million in funding from more than a dozen sponsors, including the U.S. Department of Energy, engineers have already socked away six million tons of carbon dioxide, roughly the amount produced by burning half a billion gallons of gasoline. The Timeline Unlike other geoengineering schemes, this one is already happening, with more than half a dozen major projects under way. The problem, says Howard Herzog, a principal research engineer at MIT's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, is that concentrated CO2 is in short supply. There's too much of the gas floating around in the air, but actually capturing, compressing, and transporting it costs money. In the U.S. and most other nations, there are no laws requiring fossil-fuel-burning power plants=97the primary source of CO2 emissions=97to capture a single molecule of the gas. The Promise By 2033, the Weyburn Project will store 25 million tons of carbon dioxide. "That's like taking 6.8 million cars off the road for one year," says project manager Mike Monea, "and this is just a pilot test in a small oil reservoir." Saline aquifers, giant pools of saltwater that have been trapped underground for millions of years, could hold even more CO2. Humans dump about 28 gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. Geologists estimate that underground reservoirs and saline aquifers could store as much as 200,000 gigatons. The Perils Before CO2 is injected into the ground, it's compressed into what's called a supercritical state=97it's extremely dense and viscous, and behaves more like a liquid than a gas. In this form, CO2 should remain trapped underground for thousands of years, if not indefinitely. The danger is if engineers accidentally "depressurize" an aquifer while probing for oil or natural gas. There's also a risk that carbon dioxide could escape slowly through natural fissures in subterranean rock and pool up in basements or cellars. "If you walked down into a basement [full of CO2]," Keith says, "you wouldn't smell it or see it, but it would kill you." 2. Filter CO2 from the air Feasibility: 4 Cost: $$$ RISK: 4 Klaus Lackner is accustomed to skeptics. They've doubted him since he first presented his idea for extracting carbon dioxide from ambient air in March 1999, at an international symposium on coal and fuel technology. "The reaction from everyone there was utter disbelief," recalls Lackner, a physicist with the Earth Engineering Center at Columbia University. He called for the construction of giant filters that would act like flypaper, trapping CO2 molecules as they drifted past in the wind. Sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide=97chemicals that bind with carbon dioxide=97would be pumped through the porous filters much the way antifreeze is circulated through a car's radiator. A secondary process would strip the CO2 from the binding chemical. The chemical would recirculate through the filter, while the CO2 would be set aside for disposal. The Timeline Lackner is collaborating with engineer Allen Wright, who founded Global Research Technologies in Tucson, Arizona. Wright is developing a wind-scrubber prototype but remains tight-lipped about the project. He estimates that a completed system is at least two years away. The Promise Wind scrubbers can be placed wherever it's convenient to capture carbon dioxide, so there's no need to transport it. Lackner calculates that a wind scrubber designed to retain 25 tons of CO2 per year=97the average amount each American adds to the atmosphere annually=97would require a device about the size of a large plasma- screen television. A single industrial-size wind scrubber about 200 feet high and 165 feet wide would snag about 90,000 tons of CO2 a year. The Perils Some experts are dubious about the ease of separating carbon dioxide from the binding chemical, a process that in itself would require energy from fossil fuels. "CO2 is so dilute in the air that to try to scrub from it, you have to pay too much for energy use," Herzog says. And to capture all the carbon dioxide being added to the atmosphere by humans, you'd need to blanket an area at least the size of Arizona with scrubber towers. 3.Fertilize the ocean Feasibility: 10 Cost: $ RISK: 9 On January 5, 2002, Revelle, a research vessel operated by the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, left New Zealand for the Southern Ocean=97a belt of frigid, stormy seas that separates Antarctica from the rest of the world. There the scientists dumped almost 6,000 pounds of iron powder overboard and unleashed an armada of instruments to gauge the results. The intent was to test a hypothesis put forth by oceanographer John Martin. At a lecture more than a decade ago, Martin declared: "Give me a half-tanker of iron, and I will give you an ice age." He was alluding to the fact that the Southern Ocean is packed with minerals and nutrients but strangely devoid of sea life. Martin had concluded that the ocean was anemic=97containing very little iron, an essential nutrient for plankton growth. Adding iron, Martin believed, would cool the planet by triggering blooms of CO2-consuming plankton. Oceanographer Kenneth Coale, who directs the Moss Landing Marine Laboratories near Monterey, California, was a chief scientist on the Southern Ocean cruise. He says the project was a success, proving that relatively small quantities of iron could spawn colossal blooms of plankton. The Timeline Scientists are wary, saying that too little is known about the deep- ocean environment to endorse further large-scale experiments. In October, Coale and other scientists will gather in New Zealand for a weeklong meeting sponsored by the National Science Foundation, New Zealand's National Institute for Water and Atmosphere, and the International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme to decide how to proceed. The Promise Iron fertilization is by far the cheapest and easiest way to mitigate carbon dioxide. Coale estimates that just one pound of iron could conceivably hatch enough plankton to sequester 100,000 pounds of CO2. "Even if the process is only 1 percent efficient, you just sequestered half a ton of carbon for a dime." The Perils "What is still a mystery," Coale says, "is the ripple effect on the rest of the ocean and the food chain." One fear is that huge plankton blooms, in addition to gorging on CO2, will devour other nutrients. Deep currents carry nutrient-rich water from the Southern Ocean northward to regions where fish rely on the nutrients to survive. Says Coale, "A fertilization event to take care of atmospheric CO2 could have the unintended consequence of turning the oceans sterile. Oops." 4. Turn CO2 to Stone Feasibility: 7 Cost: $$ RISK: 3 The Grand Canyon is one of the largest carbon dioxide repositories on Earth. Hundreds of millions of years ago, a vast sea covered the land there. The water, rich in carbon dioxide, slowly reacted with other chemicals to create calcium carbonate, or limestone=97the pinkish bands striping the canyon walls today. Nature's method for turning CO2 to stone is achingly slow, but researchers at the Goldwater Materials Science Laboratory at Arizona State University are working on a way to speed up the process. Michael McKelvy and Andrew Chizmeshya use serpentine or olivine, widely available and inexpensive minerals, as feedstock to fuel a chemical reaction that transforms CO2 into magnesium carbonate, a cousin of limestone. To initiate the reaction=97known as "mineral carbonation"=97the CO2 is compressed, heated, and mixed with feedstock and a catalyst, such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). The Timeline Scaling up the process to handle millions of tons of CO2 would require huge quantities of serpentine or olivine. A single mineral- carbonation plant would carve out a mountain, but, McKelvy says, "You could carbonate [the CO2] and put it right back where the feedstock came from." The Promise Mineral carbonation is simply an accelerated version of a benign natural process. The limestone in the Grand Canyon is 500 feet thick, McKelvy says, "and it has been sitting there not bothering anybody for millennia." The Perils It costs roughly $70 to eliminate one ton of CO2, a price that McKelvy says is too high. Also, the feedstock and CO2 must be heated to high temperatures. "You wind up having to burn fossil fuels in order to provide the energy to activate the mineral to put away the CO2," he says. 5. Enhance Clouds to Reflect Sunlight Feasibility: 6 Cost: $$ RISK: 7 Some proposed solutions to global warming don't involve capturing carbon dioxide. Instead they focus on turning down the heat by deflecting or filtering incoming sunlight. On any given day, marine stratocumulus clouds blanket about one third of the world's oceans, mostly around the tropics. Clouds form when water vapor clings to dust or other particles, creating droplets. Seeding clouds with tiny salt particles would enable more droplets to form=97making the clouds whiter and therefore more reflective. According to physicist John Latham, a senior research associate at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, boosting reflectivity, or albedo, in just 3 percent of marine stratocumulus clouds would reflect enough sunlight to curb global warming. "It would be like a mirror for incoming solar radiation," Latham explains. Latham is collaborating with Stephen Salter, an emeritus professor of engineering design at the University of Edinburgh, who is making sketches for GPS-steered wind- powered boats that would cruise the tropical latitudes, churning up salt spray. "I am planning a flotilla of unmanned yachts sailing backward and forward across the wind," Salter says. "They would drag propellers through the water to generate electricity, which we'd use to make the spray." Salter wants to outfit each boat with four 60-foot-tall Flettner rotors, which look like smokestacks but act like sails. An electric motor starts each rotor spinning, which, along with the wind, creates a pressure differential (less pressure in front of the rotor, more in back), generating forward thrust. From the top of the rotor, an impeller would blast a fine saltwater mist into the air. Until the concept is tested, Salter isn't sure exactly how many ships would be needed to mitigate global warming. "Maybe between 5,000 and 30,000," he says. That may sound like a lot, but Salter notes that for World War II, the U.S. built nearly 100,000 aircraft in 1944 alone. The Timeline Latham initially raised the notion in a 1990 paper. "The article went down like a lead balloon," he says. But early last year in England, at a geoengineering conference hosted by MIT and the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, he presented the concept again. "The consensus was that a number of ideas originally thought to be outlandish were deemed sufficiently plausible to be supported further. Our work fell into that category." Latham needs a few million dollars to test his idea. "On the scale of the damage that will be caused by global warming, that is utterly peanuts." The Promise What's nice about this idea is that it can easily be fine-tuned. "If we tried it and there was some deleterious effect, we could switch it off, and within four or five days all evidence would have disappeared," Latham says. The Perils One worry is that although the tiny salt particles released by evaporating sea mist are perfect for marine stratocumulus-cloud formation, they are too small to create rain clouds. "You might make it harder for rain to form," Salter says. "Therefore, you would not want to do this upwind of a place where there is a bad drought." 6. Deflect Sunlight With A Mirror Feasibility: 1 Cost: $$$$ RISK: 5 One of the most ambitious schemes is a giant space "mirror" positioned between the Earth and sun to intercept sunlight. To build the mirror, physicist Lowell Wood, a senior staff scientist at Lawrence Livermore, proposes using a mesh of aluminum threads that are only a millionth of an inch in diameter and a thousandth of an inch apart. "It would be like a window screen made of exceedingly fine metal wire," he explains. The screen wouldn't actually block the light but would simply filter it so that some of the incoming infrared radiation wouldn't reach Earth's atmosphere. The Timeline Wood, who has been researching the mirror idea for more than a decade, says it should be considered only as a safety net if all other means of reversing global warming "fail or fall grossly short over the next few decades." The Promise Once in place, the mirror would cost almost nothing to operate. From Earth, it would look like a tiny black spot on the sun. "People really wouldn't see it," says Michael MacCracken. And plant photosynthesis isn't expected to be affected by the slight reduction in sunlight. The Perils Wood calculates that deflecting 1 percent of incoming solar radiation would stabilize the climate, but doing so would require a mirror spanning roughly 600,000 square miles=97or several smaller ones. Putting something that size in orbit would be a massive challenge, not to mention exorbitantly expensive. From deafbox Fri Jul 15 14:04:02 2005 From: deafbox (Russell Turpin) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] [fauxever@sprynet.com: [extropy-chat] Poverty of Dignity] In-Reply-To: <20050715145716.GD4317@leitl.org> Message-ID: Thomas Friedman: >What struck me, though, was the instinctive reaction >of the Bahraini businessman sitting next to me, who >muttered under his breath, "Why are we in every story?" The "we" in >question was Muslims. The obvious response is that belonging to that group is entirely voluntary. I wonder if such events cause even a few Muslims to question their faith? I doubt very many. That might be the scariest thing of all. From dave.long Sat Jul 16 05:59:25 2005 From: dave.long (Dave Long) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Warning Labels on Fat Kids.. In-Reply-To: <20050715190007.0690515DC6A0@xent.com> References: <20050715190007.0690515DC6A0@xent.com> Message-ID: <30ECA907-F5F9-11D9-AC88-001124785D62@bluewin.ch> 1/ For those of you resident in NA who'd like sodas bottled with real sugar, I suggest Hawaii. 2/ In Switzerland, the McDo's place buckets next to the trash cans, in which one can dump the excessive soda that came with the meal. (3dl is a fair sized drink, by the local standards. Supersize, I think, would be more than 12dl...) -Dave :: :: :: how many metric beers in a 24? From sdw Sat Jul 16 15:18:09 2005 From: sdw (Stephen D. Williams) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Space mirrors. In-Reply-To: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <42D987CF.6080405@lig.net> This was from Popular Science this month. I looked for an electronic version and didn't find it; thanks! The specific space mirror proposal was interesting, but not the only method and possibly not the most feasible method. sdw Zee Roe wrote: >Feasibility: 1. :) > > > >How Earth-Scale Engineering Can Save the Planet > >Maybe we can have our fossil fuels and burn 'em too. These >scientists have come up with a plan to end global warming. One idea: >A 600,000-square-mile space mirror > >By Michael Behar | August 2005 > >David Keith never expected to get a summons from the White House. >But in September 2001, officials with the President's Climate Change >Technology Program invited him and more than two dozen other >scientists to participate in a roundtable discussion >called "Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change." While >administration officials were insisting in public that there was no >firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring >potential ways to turn down the heat. >Most of the world's industrialized nations had already vowed to >combat global warming by reining in their emissions of carbon >dioxide, the chief "greenhouse gas" blamed for trapping heat in >Earth's atmosphere. But in March 2001 President George W. Bush had >withdrawn U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol, the international >treaty mandating limits on CO2 emissions, and asked his >administration to begin studying other options. > >Keith, a physicist and economist in the chemical and petroleum >engineering department at the University of Calgary, had for more >than a decade been investigating strategies to curtail global >warming. He and the other scientists at the meeting?including >physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who had spent >a chunk of their careers designing nuclear weapons?had come up with >some ideas for "geoengineering" Earth's climate. What they proposed >was tinkering on a global scale. "We already are inadvertently >changing the climate, so why not advertently try to counterbalance >it?" asks retired Lawrence Livermore physicist Michael MacCracken, a >former senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program >who helped organize the meeting. > >"If they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there >would have been riots," Keith says. "Here were the bomb guys from >Livermore talking about stuff that strikes most greens as being >completely wrong and off-the-wall." But today, a growing number of >physicists, oceanographers and climatologists around the world are >seriously considering technologies for the deliberate manipulation >of Earth's climate. Some advocate planetary air-conditioning devices >such as orbiting space mirrors that deflect sunlight away from >Earth, or ships that intensify cloud cover to block the sun's rays. >Others are suggesting that we capture carbon dioxide?from the air, >from cars and power plants?and stash it underground or react it with >chemicals that turn it to stone. > > > >Carbon dioxide wasn't always public enemy number one. For the past >400,000 years, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has >fluctuated between about 180 and 280 ppm (parts per million, the >number of CO2 molecules per million molecules of air). But in the >late 1800s, when humans set about burning fossil fuels in earnest, >atmospheric CO2 began to increase with alarming speed?from about 280 >ppm to the current level of almost 380 ppm, in a scant 100 years. >Experts predict that CO2 could climb as high as 500 ppm by 2050 and >possibly twice that by the end of the century. As CO2 levels >continue to rise, the planet will get hotter. "The question now," >says Ken Caldeira, an atmospheric scientist at Lawrence Livermore >and one of the world's leading authorities on climate change, "is >what can we actually do about it?" Here are some of the >geoengineering schemes under consideration. > >1. Store CO2 Underground >Feasibility: 10 >Cost: $$ >RISK: 4 >In the southeastern corner of Saskatchewan, just outside the town of >Weyburn?the "Opportunity City"?a steel pipeline descends 4,000 feet >below the prairie at the edge of a 70-square-mile oil field. Into >this subterranean cavern, petroleum engineers are pumping 5,000 tons >of pressurized, liquefied carbon dioxide every day. The aim is >twofold: Use high-pressure CO2 to drive oil from the porous rock in >the reservoir to the surface, and trap the carbon dioxide >underground. >Welcome to the world's largest carbon-sequestering operation. Dubbed >the Weyburn Project, it began in July 2000 as a partnership between >EnCana, a Canadian oil and gas company, and Canada's Petroleum >Technology Research Centre. With $13 million in funding from more >than a dozen sponsors, including the U.S. Department of Energy, >engineers have already socked away six million tons of carbon >dioxide, roughly the amount produced by burning half a billion >gallons of gasoline. > >The Timeline >Unlike other geoengineering schemes, this one is already happening, >with more than half a dozen major projects under way. The problem, >says Howard Herzog, a principal research engineer at MIT's >Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, is that concentrated CO2 >is in short supply. There's too much of the gas floating around in >the air, but actually capturing, compressing, and transporting it >costs money. In the U.S. and most other nations, there are no laws >requiring fossil-fuel-burning power plants?the primary source of CO2 >emissions?to capture a single molecule of the gas. > >The Promise >By 2033, the Weyburn Project will store 25 million tons of carbon >dioxide. "That's like taking 6.8 million cars off the road for one >year," says project manager Mike Monea, "and this is just a pilot >test in a small oil reservoir." Saline aquifers, giant pools of >saltwater that have been trapped underground for millions of years, >could hold even more CO2. Humans dump about 28 gigatons of CO2 into >the atmosphere every year. Geologists estimate that underground >reservoirs and saline aquifers could store as much as 200,000 >gigatons. > >The Perils >Before CO2 is injected into the ground, it's compressed into what's >called a supercritical state?it's extremely dense and viscous, and >behaves more like a liquid than a gas. In this form, CO2 should >remain trapped underground for thousands of years, if not >indefinitely. The danger is if engineers accidentally "depressurize" >an aquifer while probing for oil or natural gas. There's also a risk >that carbon dioxide could escape slowly through natural fissures in >subterranean rock and pool up in basements or cellars. "If you >walked down into a basement [full of CO2]," Keith says, "you >wouldn't smell it or see it, but it would kill you." > >2. Filter CO2 from the air >Feasibility: 4 >Cost: $$$ >RISK: 4 >Klaus Lackner is accustomed to skeptics. They've doubted him since >he first presented his idea for extracting carbon dioxide from >ambient air in March 1999, at an international symposium on coal and >fuel technology. "The reaction from everyone there was utter >disbelief," recalls Lackner, a physicist with the Earth Engineering >Center at Columbia University. > >He called for the construction of giant filters that would act like >flypaper, trapping CO2 molecules as they drifted past in the wind. >Sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide?chemicals that bind with >carbon dioxide?would be pumped through the porous filters much the >way antifreeze is circulated through a car's radiator. A secondary >process would strip the CO2 from the binding chemical. The chemical >would recirculate through the filter, while the CO2 would be set >aside for disposal. > >The Timeline >Lackner is collaborating with engineer Allen Wright, who founded >Global Research Technologies in Tucson, Arizona. Wright is >developing a wind-scrubber prototype but remains tight-lipped about >the project. He estimates that a completed system is at least two >years away. > >The Promise >Wind scrubbers can be placed wherever it's convenient to capture >carbon dioxide, so there's no need to transport it. Lackner >calculates that a wind scrubber designed to retain 25 tons of CO2 >per year?the average amount each American adds to the atmosphere >annually?would require a device about the size of a large plasma- >screen television. A single industrial-size wind scrubber about 200 >feet high and 165 feet wide would snag about 90,000 tons of CO2 a >year. > >The Perils >Some experts are dubious about the ease of separating carbon dioxide >from the binding chemical, a process that in itself would require >energy from fossil fuels. "CO2 is so dilute in the air that to try >to scrub from it, you have to pay too much for energy use," Herzog >says. And to capture all the carbon dioxide being added to the >atmosphere by humans, you'd need to blanket an area at least the >size of Arizona with scrubber towers. > >3.Fertilize the ocean >Feasibility: 10 >Cost: $ >RISK: 9 >On January 5, 2002, Revelle, a research vessel operated by the >Scripps Institution of Oceanography, left New Zealand for the >Southern Ocean?a belt of frigid, stormy seas that separates >Antarctica from the rest of the world. There the scientists dumped >almost 6,000 pounds of iron powder overboard and unleashed an armada >of instruments to gauge the results. >The intent was to test a hypothesis put forth by oceanographer John >Martin. At a lecture more than a decade ago, Martin declared: "Give >me a half-tanker of iron, and I will give you an ice age." He was >alluding to the fact that the Southern Ocean is packed with minerals >and nutrients but strangely devoid of sea life. Martin had concluded >that the ocean was anemic?containing very little iron, an essential >nutrient for plankton growth. Adding iron, Martin believed, would >cool the planet by triggering blooms of CO2-consuming plankton. > >Oceanographer Kenneth Coale, who directs the Moss Landing Marine >Laboratories near Monterey, California, was a chief scientist on the >Southern Ocean cruise. He says the project was a success, proving >that relatively small quantities of iron could spawn colossal blooms >of plankton. > >The Timeline >Scientists are wary, saying that too little is known about the deep- >ocean environment to endorse further large-scale experiments. In >October, Coale and other scientists will gather in New Zealand for a >weeklong meeting sponsored by the National Science Foundation, New >Zealand's National Institute for Water and Atmosphere, and the >International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme to decide how to proceed. > >The Promise >Iron fertilization is by far the cheapest and easiest way to >mitigate carbon dioxide. Coale estimates that just one pound of iron >could conceivably hatch enough plankton to sequester 100,000 pounds >of CO2. "Even if the process is only 1 percent efficient, you just >sequestered half a ton of carbon for a dime." > >The Perils >"What is still a mystery," Coale says, "is the ripple effect on the >rest of the ocean and the food chain." One fear is that huge >plankton blooms, in addition to gorging on CO2, will devour other >nutrients. Deep currents carry nutrient-rich water from the Southern >Ocean northward to regions where fish rely on the nutrients to >survive. Says Coale, "A fertilization event to take care of >atmospheric CO2 could have the unintended consequence of turning the >oceans sterile. Oops." > >4. Turn CO2 to Stone >Feasibility: 7 >Cost: $$ >RISK: 3 >The Grand Canyon is one of the largest carbon dioxide repositories >on Earth. Hundreds of millions of years ago, a vast sea covered the >land there. The water, rich in carbon dioxide, slowly reacted with >other chemicals to create calcium carbonate, or limestone?the >pinkish bands striping the canyon walls today. > >Nature's method for turning CO2 to stone is achingly slow, but >researchers at the Goldwater Materials Science Laboratory at Arizona >State University are working on a way to speed up the process. >Michael McKelvy and Andrew Chizmeshya use serpentine or olivine, >widely available and inexpensive minerals, as feedstock to fuel a >chemical reaction that transforms CO2 into magnesium carbonate, a >cousin of limestone. To initiate the reaction?known as "mineral >carbonation"?the CO2 is compressed, heated, and mixed with feedstock >and a catalyst, such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). > >The Timeline >Scaling up the process to handle millions of tons of CO2 would >require huge quantities of serpentine or olivine. A single mineral- >carbonation plant would carve out a mountain, but, McKelvy >says, "You could carbonate [the CO2] and put it right back where the >feedstock came from." > >The Promise >Mineral carbonation is simply an accelerated version of a benign >natural process. The limestone in the Grand Canyon is 500 feet >thick, McKelvy says, "and it has been sitting there not bothering >anybody for millennia." > >The Perils >It costs roughly $70 to eliminate one ton of CO2, a price that >McKelvy says is too high. Also, the feedstock and CO2 must be heated >to high temperatures. "You wind up having to burn fossil fuels in >order to provide the energy to activate the mineral to put away the >CO2," he says. > > > >5. Enhance Clouds to Reflect Sunlight >Feasibility: 6 >Cost: $$ >RISK: 7 >Some proposed solutions to global warming don't involve capturing >carbon dioxide. Instead they focus on turning down the heat by >deflecting or filtering incoming sunlight. >On any given day, marine stratocumulus clouds blanket about one >third of the world's oceans, mostly around the tropics. Clouds form >when water vapor clings to dust or other particles, creating >droplets. Seeding clouds with tiny salt particles would enable more >droplets to form?making the clouds whiter and therefore more >reflective. According to physicist John Latham, a senior research >associate at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in >Boulder, Colorado, boosting reflectivity, or albedo, in just 3 >percent of marine stratocumulus clouds would reflect enough sunlight >to curb global warming. "It would be like a mirror for incoming >solar radiation," Latham explains. > >Latham is collaborating with Stephen Salter, an emeritus professor >of engineering design at the University of Edinburgh, who is making >sketches for GPS-steered wind- powered boats that would cruise the >tropical latitudes, churning up salt spray. "I am planning a >flotilla of unmanned yachts sailing backward and forward across the >wind," Salter says. "They would drag propellers through the water to >generate electricity, which we'd use to make the spray." > >Salter wants to outfit each boat with four 60-foot-tall Flettner >rotors, which look like smokestacks but act like sails. An electric >motor starts each rotor spinning, which, along with the wind, >creates a pressure differential (less pressure in front of the >rotor, more in back), generating forward thrust. From the top of the >rotor, an impeller would blast a fine saltwater mist into the air. > >Until the concept is tested, Salter isn't sure exactly how many >ships would be needed to mitigate global warming. "Maybe between >5,000 and 30,000," he says. That may sound like a lot, but Salter >notes that for World War II, the U.S. built nearly 100,000 aircraft >in 1944 alone. > >The Timeline >Latham initially raised the notion in a 1990 paper. "The article >went down like a lead balloon," he says. But early last year in >England, at a geoengineering conference hosted by MIT and the >Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, he presented the concept >again. "The consensus was that a number of ideas originally thought >to be outlandish were deemed sufficiently plausible to be supported >further. Our work fell into that category." Latham needs a few >million dollars to test his idea. "On the scale of the damage that >will be caused by global warming, that is utterly peanuts." > >The Promise >What's nice about this idea is that it can easily be fine-tuned. "If >we tried it and there was some deleterious effect, we could switch >it off, and within four or five days all evidence would have >disappeared," Latham says. > >The Perils >One worry is that although the tiny salt particles released by >evaporating sea mist are perfect for marine stratocumulus-cloud >formation, they are too small to create rain clouds. "You might make >it harder for rain to form," Salter says. "Therefore, you would not >want to do this upwind of a place where there is a bad drought." > >6. Deflect Sunlight With A Mirror >Feasibility: 1 >Cost: $$$$ >RISK: 5 >One of the most ambitious schemes is a giant space "mirror" >positioned between the Earth and sun to intercept sunlight. To build >the mirror, physicist Lowell Wood, a senior staff scientist at >Lawrence Livermore, proposes using a mesh of aluminum threads that >are only a millionth of an inch in diameter and a thousandth of an >inch apart. "It would be like a window screen made of exceedingly >fine metal wire," he explains. The screen wouldn't actually block >the light but would simply filter it so that some of the incoming >infrared radiation wouldn't reach Earth's atmosphere. > >The Timeline >Wood, who has been researching the mirror idea for more than a >decade, says it should be considered only as a safety net if all >other means of reversing global warming "fail or fall grossly short >over the next few decades." > >The Promise >Once in place, the mirror would cost almost nothing to operate. From >Earth, it would look like a tiny black spot on the sun. "People >really wouldn't see it," says Michael MacCracken. And plant >photosynthesis isn't expected to be affected by the slight reduction >in sunlight. > >The Perils >Wood calculates that deflecting 1 percent of incoming solar >radiation would stabilize the climate, but doing so would require a >mirror spanning roughly 600,000 square miles?or several smaller >ones. Putting something that size in orbit would be a massive >challenge, not to mention exorbitantly expensive. > > > > >_______________________________________________ >FoRK mailing list >http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > -- swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com Per: sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax 20147-4622 AIM: sdw From fork Sat Jul 16 16:01:36 2005 From: fork (Damien Morton) Date: Wed Feb 1 08:22:34 2006 Subject: [FoRK] Space mirrors. In-Reply-To: <42D987CF.6080405@lig.net> References: <20050715125802.V53812@shell.rawbw.com> <42D987CF.6080405@lig.net> Message-ID: <42D991C8.8050105@bitfurnace.com> When I was a kid, I dreamed of being an Astronaut. I was old enough to watch the first landing on the moon, and was pripping my seat during Apollo 13. I saw the first shuttle go up, and ive seen shuttles come down. I love space. When I read about solar power satelites and microwave downlinks, or I hear about space mirrors, I worry. These are weapons. Incontrovertably. I ask myself - whats wrong with terrestrial solar power - it has no weapons potential, is entirely passive, and apart from any industrial effluent in the production of the cells, has no environmental impact apart from using up at lot of land, the most suitable of which is the most least humanly useable. And when it comes to space mirrors mitigating greenhouse effects - I ask myself - whats wrong with fixing the bloody problem instead of an enormous engineering effort to fix the symptoms. So... I love space, but given the cost of putting up a 1 tonne satelite into low orbit, including the environmental cost of a single launch, its seems eminently stupid to suggest that putting multiple thousand tonnes of solar power satelites and/or space mirrors into high orbit will solve our environmental or energy problems, not to mention the security problems that putting enormous frikken directed energy weapons over our heads will cause. Space advocates simply do themselves a disservice going down this road. Here's a simple solution. Every time the price of gas rises, institute a tax to ensure that it doesnt fall again. That tax revenue then gets directed to subsidising alternative power sources and energy consumption and generation efficiency measures, essentially legislating fossil fuel slowly out of existance. Everyone gains - the alternate power people get assurance that fossil fuels will never go down in price, as well as bonuses when they do. The fossil fuel people, gain no incentives to reduce their prices or increase their production efficiency or output. Lets face it - fossil fuels were a bad decision - but they were the only decision we had. Now we know better, and we have other choices, so the quicker we ditch them, the better. As far as space goes, well, until we get space elevators, or some other to-orbit system that doesnt rely on ejecting millions of pounds of chemical-combustion exhaust into the atmosphere to lift a relatively small payload, we will should stick to throwing barrel-sized probes and toy trucks at other planets. > This was from Popular Science this month. I looked for an electronic > version and didn't find it; thanks! > > The specific space mirror proposal was interesting, but not the only > method and possibly not the most feasible method. > > sdw > > Zee Roe wrote: > >> Feasibility: 1. :) >> >> >> >> How Earth-Scale Engineering Can Save the Planet >> >> Maybe we can have our fossil fuels and burn 'em too. These >> scientists have come up with a plan to end global warming. One idea: >> A 600,000-square-mile space mirror >> >> By Michael Behar | August 2005 >> >> David Keith never expected to get a summons from the White House. >> But in September 2001, officials with the President's Climate Change >> Technology Program invited him and more than two dozen other >> scientists to participate in a roundtable discussion >> called "Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change." While >> administration officials were insisting in public that there was no >> firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring >> potential ways to turn down the heat. >> Most of the world's industrialized nations had already vowed to >> combat global warming by reining in their emissions of carbon >> dioxide, the chief "greenhouse gas" blamed for trapping heat in >> Earth's atmosphere. But in March 2001 President George W. Bush had >> withdrawn U.S. support for the Kyoto Protocol, the international >> treaty mandating limits on CO2 emissions, and asked his >> administration to begin studying other options. >> >> Keith, a physicist and economist in the chemical and petroleum >> engineering department at the University of Calgary, had for more >> than a decade been investigating strategies to curtail global >> warming. He and the other scientists at the meeting?including >> physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who had spent >> a chunk of their careers designing nuclear weapons?had come up with >> some ideas for "geoengineering" Earth's climate. What they proposed >> was tinkering on a global scale. "We already are inadvertently >> changing the climate, so why not advertently try to counterbalance >> it?" asks retired Lawrence Livermore physicist Michael MacCracken, a >> former senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program >> who helped organize the meeting. >> >> "If they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there >> would have been riots," Keith says. "Here were the bomb guys from >> Livermore talking about stuff that strikes most greens as being >> completely wrong and off-the-wall." But today, a growing number of >> physicists, oceanographers and climatologists around the world are >> seriously considering technologies for the deliberate manipulation >> of Earth's climate. Some advocate planetary air-conditioning devices >> such as orbiting space mirrors that deflect sunlight away from >> Earth, or ships that intensify cloud cover to block the sun's rays. >> Others are suggesting that we capture carbon dioxide?from the air, >> from cars and power plants?and stash it underground or react it with >> chemicals that turn it to stone. >> >> >> >> Carbon dioxide wasn't always public enemy number one. For the past >> 400,000 years, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has >> fluctuated between about 180 and 280 ppm (parts per million, the >> number of CO2 molecules per million molecules of air). But in the >> late 1800s, when humans set about burning fossil fuels in earnest, >> atmospheric CO2 began to increase with alarming speed?from about 280 >> ppm to the current level of almost 380 ppm, in a scant 100 years. >> Experts predict that CO2 could climb as high as 500 ppm by 2050 and >> possibly twice that by the end of the century. As CO2 levels >> continue to rise, the planet will get hotter. "The question now," >> says Ken Caldeira, an atmospheric scientist at Lawrence Livermore >> and one of the world's leading authorities on climate change, "is >> what can we actually do about it?" Here are some of the >> geoengineering schemes under consideration. >> >> 1. Store CO2 Underground >> Feasibility: 10 >> Cost: $$ >> RISK: 4 >> In the southeastern corner of Saskatchewan, just outside the town of >> Weyburn?the "Opportunity City"?a steel pipeline descends 4,000 feet >> below the prairie at the edge of a 70-square-mile oil field. Into >> this subterranean cavern, petroleum engineers are pumping 5,000 tons >> of pressurized, liquefied carbon dioxide every day. The aim is >> twofold: Use high-pressure CO2 to drive oil from the porous rock in >> the reservoir to the surface, and trap the carbon dioxide >> underground. >> Welcome to the world's largest carbon-sequestering operation. Dubbed >> the Weyburn Project, it began in July 2000 as a partnership between >> EnCana, a Canadian oil and gas company, and Canada's Petroleum >> Technology Research Centre. With $13 million in funding from more >> than a dozen sponsors, including the U.S. Department of Energy, >> engineers have already socked away six million tons of carbon >> dioxide, roughly the amount produced by burning half a billion >> gallons of gasoline. >> >> The Timeline >> Unlike other geoengineering schemes, this one is already happening, >> with more than half a dozen major projects under way. The problem, >> says Howard Herzog, a principal research engineer at MIT's >> Laboratory for Energy and the Environment, is that concentrated CO2 >> is in short supply. There's too much of the gas floating around in >> the air, but actually capturing, compressing, and transporting it >> costs money. In the U.S. and most other nations, there are no laws >> requiring fossil-fuel-burning power plants?the primary source of CO2 >> emissions?to capture a single molecule of the gas. >> >> The Promise >> By 2033, the Weyburn Project will store 25 million tons of carbon >> dioxide. "That's like taking 6.8 million cars off the road for one >> year," says project manager Mike Monea, "and this is just a pilot >> test in a small oil reservoir." Saline aquifers, giant pools of >> saltwater that have been trapped underground for millions of years, >>