universal values Re: [FoRK] bin Laden offers truce

Dr. Ernie Prabhakar drernie at radicalcentrism.org
Thu Jan 19 17:15:10 PST 2006


Hi Stephen,

Interesting proposal.  It sounds like this gets into the question of  
"Are there values sufficiently universal (or at least legitimate)  
that we have a right (and ability) to force them down other people's  
throats?"

Coming from an Indian background, and seeing what the British did  
(with all their flaws), I'd have to say yes.  Of course as a  
Christian I'm somewhat biased, but I'm curious how many people here  
think it was "cultural imperialism" to ban widow-burning?

-- Ernie P.


On Jan 19, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Stephen D. Williams wrote:

> Either you say "This is what works for the civilized world." or you  
> just bound them like a primitive tribe and expect them to  
> understand your actions by osmosis.  Of course you don't want to  
> have reeducation camps and forced adherence to an ideology, and I  
> didn't suggest that.  You're connection to China was a bit knee- 
> jerk I think.  You also seem to be taking the "don't force our  
> culture on theirs" position.  If their culture was working, great,  
> but they're barely out of the stone age as far as I can tell.   
> Without oil revenue and being consumers of the rest of the world,  
> they'd be pretty backward.  When everyone is miserable and  
> dysfunctional and can only concentrate on killing the rest of the  
> world because of the unfairness of it all and commandments from  
> God, then I'm not so interested in preserving the quaintness of the  
> culture.  But that's just me (this week).
>
> I would definitely limit teaching of death to anyone, that's "hate  
> speech" regardless of religious couching.  I would require that  
> schools teach modern principles and a broad array of government,  
> legal, medical, scientific (yes, even evolution) knowledge.  I  
> would give preference in gov. jobs, licenses, teachers (especially)  
> to those that have demonstrated that knowledge.  If they choose to  
> believe otherwise, fine, but they should be exposed to it.  I  
> assume that it is happening at least to some extent, but it should  
> be more pervasive and up front and publicized.  Even teaching how a  
> full economy works with mortgages, insurance, credit bureaus,  
> banks, finance, investment markets, etc. is probably needed.
>
> sdw
>
> Regina Schuman wrote:
>> SDW muses: "Overall, I'd have an intensive education program for Iraq
>> and Afghanistan that explains democracy, lawful society,  
>> philosophical differences, progressive rather than regressive  
>> ideas, etc.  I'd even have a program to pair Iraqi families with  
>> American or European
>> families."
>>
>> Oh, I'm sure they'd cotton to that, given their ideology. Let's  
>> affirm
>> the pervasiveness, no, invasiveness, er, dominence of our
>> consumer/capitalist society, no, hegemony as our foreign policies
>> eclipse any and all philosophical explanations.
>>
>> See # 7
>> http://www.moe.edu.cn/english/ministry_f.htm
>> 8-)
>> Geege
>>
>> Afghanistan National Anthem (new)
>>
>> Rape me
>> Rape me, my friend
>> Rape me
>> Rape me, again
>> am i the only one?[4x]
>>
>> Hate me
>> Do it and do it again
>> Waste me
>> Rape me, my friend
>>
>> Am I the only one? [4x]
>>
>> My favorite inside source
>> I'll kiss your open sores
>> Appreciate your concern
>> You'll always stink and burn
>>
>> Rape me
>> Rape me, my friend
>> Rape me
>> Rape me, again
>>
>> Am I the only one? [4x]
>>
>> Rape me! [17x]
>>
>>   <MadAmericanRant>
>>
>> He/they should have started with a truce.  And didn't the attacks  
>> already reach our shores?  The long arm of the American giant  
>> woken by
>>
>> 9/11 won't stop until ObL and anyone working with him are no  
>> longer free.  It's messy, ridiculously costly, and half (at least)  
>> the decisions are between misguided and illegal, but it will be a  
>> while before someone questions America's willingness to smack  
>> someone back
>> who smacks us.  The US won't run out of money, and we've only  
>> begun to get
>>
>> creative about solving the problem.  If I were in charge, I would  
>> have
>>
>> placed emphasis on both muslim-native infiltration and technology  
>> to automatically suppress shots / missiles in a fire zone.  There  
>> have
>> been projects to do the latter, but I'd be rushing them to test  
>> and funding
>>
>> competition until I could run automated vehicle convoys non-stop to
>> draw fire, fire back, scope out mines, and provide cover for  
>> vehicles with human passengers.
>>
>> Right now, I'd be providing favor to peaceful areas and immediate  
>> sanctions on insurgent areas until locals helped themselves.
>>
>> Overall, I'd have an intensive education program for Iraq and  
>> Afghanistan that explains democracy, lawful society, philosophical  
>> differences, progressive rather than regressive ideas, etc.  I'd  
>> even have a program to pair Iraqi families with American or European
>> families.
>>
>> My impression is that part of the reason that Bush was reelected  
>> was that a significant portion of voters wanted to make sure we  
>> kept a bull
>>
>> in the china until the "job is done", damn the consequences.  The  
>> mistake of those now-terrorists (ObL & co.) who thought America was
>> weak because we had a civilized and/or apparently bumbling leader  
>> is that they don't get that the effective personality of the  
>> country can change
>>
>> every 4 years, sometimes drastically, and there are infinite  
>> resources
>>
>> and adaptability available if really necessary.  Consider that all  
>> of the troops, money, effort, technology, fuel, and other  
>> resources have had no measurable-to-the-average person cost so far  
>> in the US.  The key
>>
>> component of winning WWII was, I believe, factory production in  
>> the US
>>
>> along with a few good decisions.  Different kind of war of course,  
>> but
>>
>> consider the kinds of automated technology and communication that  
>> we could now produce.  Imagine every border crossing, road, and  
>> public place having automated biometric surveillance with  
>> continuous identification and tracking.  Big American Brother indeed.
>>
>> I'd prefer to get civilized and intelligent back in office, but I  
>> want
>>
>> some parts of the world to learn a lesson too: Don't act like
>> barbarians (to us especially) or we'll get medieval back.
>>
>> Now, of course Iraqis (at least the ones who were in Iraq when they
>> were "liberated") aren't the same as ObL's crew, but there are  
>> those now who
>>
>> seem to have the same viewpoints and drive to kill and resistance  
>> to modernity.
>> </MadAmericanRant>
>>
>> sdw
>>
>> Lorin Rivers wrote:
>>
>>> According to CNN in the audio tape purported to be from ObL:
>>>
>>> "In response to the substance of the polls in the U.S., which
>>>
>> indicate
>>
>>> that Americans do not want to fight Muslims on Muslim land, nor do
>>> they want Muslims to fight them on their land, we do not mind
>>>
>> offering
>>
>>> a long-term truce based on just conditions that we will stick to.
>>>
>>> "We are a nation that God banned from lying and stabbing others in
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> back. Hence, both parties of the truce will enjoy stability and
>>> security to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, which were destroyed by
>>>
>> war.
>>
>>> "There is no problem in this solution, but it will prevent hundreds
>>>
>> of
>>
>>> billions from going to influential people and warlords in America --
>>> those who supported Bush's electoral campaign. And from this, we can
>>> understand Bush and his gang's insistence on continuing the war,"
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> voice said.
>>>
>>> White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the tape suggested bin
>>> Laden was "under pressure." He also dismissed the idea of a truce,
>>> saying, "We must confront threats before it is too late...before the
>>> attacks reach our shores."
>>>
>>> McClellan continued "Have you seen Haliburton's stock price? I can
>>>
>> be
>>
>>> a tool all day long for that kind of money!"
>>>
>>> (last bit is mine, obviously) but ObL seems to have hit the nail on
>>>
>> the head...
>>
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