[FoRK] reas. conv. 10/04 Re: What's Wrong With Christianity?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

[#4 (of 3?!?) in a "reasoned conversation" about Christianity and  
atheism]

Hi all,

Since Corinna brought it up again, I figured I should at least make a  
"good faith" effort to respond to the comments that Tom, Stephen, and  
Russel have raised.   At the risk of excessive brevity, let me try to  
concisely summarize the various arguments that have been raised so  
far, that Christians (e.g., I):

a) Deny responsibility for their actions and choices by appealing to  
a Higher Power

b) Claim to have a monopoly on Truth and Good (thus denying that  
atheists can know either)

c) Cause more evil than good

d) Countenance irrational leaps of faith

e) Rely on an incoherent Bible, and thus necessarily think/choose  
incoherently

f)  Place absolute on a Bible that explicitly commands immoral behavior

g) Fail to consider superior alternatives, based purely on, e.g.,  
aesthetics and/or reason

and last but not least:

h) Have no interest in true "reasoned conversation", but merely want  
to brainwash/manipulate people into agreeing with them.


While obviously an incomplete and superficial summary, hopefully it  
is sufficiently close that I can make the following observations:

I.  These are legitimate criticisms

I acknowledge up front that these i) are real problems, ii) have  
characterized Christianity too much of the time, iii) characterize  
some variants of Christianity most of the time, and iv) are problems  
I myself am not immune from.

II.  All beliefs rest, to some extent, on choice

We all know (at least us Bayesians :-) that it is possible to look at  
the exact same data and draw different conclusions, depending on the  
assumptions we bring to do the data.  I'm not denying the existence  
of my biases, nor am I trying to impose them on you.  Rather, I am  
hoping we can _all_ articulate those different assumptions more  
clearly, to increase our mutual understanding (even if nobody  
actually changes their mind).

But more importantly, I believe:

III.  Our primary disagreement so far is about *which* data to include

As Stephen so eloquently said:

> All belief systems can be used for evil.  One of my favorite  
> aphorisms, mocking reliance on rationalism, is: "Logic is a system  
> whereby one may go wrong with confidence."  The important question  
> to me is whether a belief system has intrinsic or likely tendencies  
> that are A) more negative than positive overall and B) more  
> negative than the best known alternatives.

I completely agree. In particular, I would argue that judging the  
"intrinsic" value of Christianity from this sample set would be like,  
e.g., judging atheism from looking at Lenin.  That is, while I don't  
deny _your_ evidence, I feel that you are unfairly ignoring an  
enormous body of *equally hard* evidence that would support _my_  
point of view.

To be sure, I realize that asserting the existence of such evidence  
is different that demonstrating it, which brings us to:

IV. I can't answer everything (at least not now)

I am perfectly willing to provide verifiable empirical data and well- 
structured logical arguments to back up my claims, so as to give you  
something concrete to critique.   And given enough time, I believe I  
can address all these concerns to your satisfaction.  But, while I  
appreciate Russell's frustration, due to bandwidth limitations  
(FoRK's patience, time, brain cycles :-) I am unable to answer all  
the various questions to an acceptable level of detail.

So, here's the request:

	Pick one or two of the above topics (a-g, since 'h' is implied ;-)  
that [the collective] "you" would like to see me defend, and I'll do  
my best to provide a coherent explanation based on the same standards  
of evidence we use in scientific research (historical, empirical, or  
logical, as appropriate).

Conversely, if there's no consensus about what is worth discussing --  
or there _is_ a consensus *against* discussing this topic any further  
-- I'll drop this conversation right now.*

Fair enough?

-- Ernie P.

* Though, of course, I reserve the right to respond to anti-Christian  
claims made on this list in the future.