[FoRK] Brownback defines science

Lion Kimbro <lionkimbro at gmail.com> on Fri Jun 1 16:18:56 PDT 2007

On 6/1/07, Andy Armstrong <andy at hexten.net> wrote:
> >  That means you've got to study what's wrong with your message,
> >  listen to what people are hearing from y'all, and re-envisioning your
> >  message.
>
> You can't change the message just because people are too fuckwitted
> to understand it you know. That'd be perilously close to cheating.

  "The message."

  The message is MUCH MORE than "There's no God."

  You have to hear the message people are receiving,
  not the message you're intending.


  That is, if you're intent on communicating.


  If you're saying  "There's no God," and you don't care about how
  people are receiving it, that's one thing.  But if that's the case, I don't
  care *what* you all are saying, because you've just given the world
  a gigantic "screw you."  In which case, why so much whimpering
  and complaining about what the world thinks, in FoRK?


> >  This whole "Y'all a bunch of chimps" business is not necessary,
> >  and actually harms the mission.
>
> Let me get all this down. You're saying we should drop all that
> schtick about humans evolving just like all the other icky things?
> It's gone brother. Never liked that bit anyway.

  Did I write that?


> >  You should be able to have an *obviously* life-affirming,
> > celebratory,
> >  friendly, joyous message.  As it is, y'all are being interpreted
> > as the
> >  exact opposite.
>
> So you don't think "every living thing alive today is the product of
> zillions of mutations across assloads of generations" and "we're all
> direct descendants of the very first living organism" are life
> affirming?

  *THAT* has been my point from the beginning.

  It was rejected like vomit, when I started here.


> And the idea that some old dude who resembled Charlton Heston fixed
> up all this stuff for his own unspecified pleasures - you think
> that's a crowd pleaser, right?

  You haven't been paying attention.

  But you're right on one part-- you NEED a crowd pleaser.

  You don't have a crowd pleaser, and the atheist crowd doesn't have a chance.
  Simple.  Unadulterated.  Fact.


  Fortunately, you can do it.  But WILL you do it?
  Or is FoRK just going to keep complaining about religion?


> >  So, study the message.  Study the mechanisms by which people
> >  are mis-understanding what you all are and what you think.  Correct
> >  the message, if you are serious.
>
> Why stop there? There must be some inconvenient laws of physics we
> can patch up while we're at it.

  No, that's not part of the program.

  This is all about human life & interpretation.


  See, this bullshit attitude is exactly the problem with you atheists:
  You don't hear yourselves from the outside.


> >  You might be a follower of atheism, rather than a leader.  If that
> >  is the case, (and there's no shame in that,) then deliver this
> > message
> >  to your leaders, and ask them what they can do.
>
> There's no atheism to follow. It's not a fucking club. It doesn't
> have leaders. When I state the obvious "God doesn't exist"[1] I am an
> atheist because, bizarrely, the disease is so prevalent that we need
> a word for the healthy.

  You're just ram-rodding this into a discussion you're so familiar with.

  Get this clear:

  * This isn't about a "global atheist movement."
  * This isn't about "getting atheists to become one thing."

  This isn't about ANY of that.


  This is about FoRK and You and People Here:

  *IF* you wall want a *public leader,* maybe a politician, maybe a president,
  maybe a congressperson, *anything,* within like, the next 20 years,
  if you want this to be a popular perspective, to the degree that people will
  vote for people holding it--

  Than you need to pay attention to how people receive your message,
  your cult, your tribe, your naturalist message, your disbelief in Gods,
  your atheist "thing."

  You *HAVE* to think about your message, and you have to massage it
  into a form that people can understand and accept and live happily with.


  Very simple.


  I mean, it's possible that, in 20-40 years, religion will just collapse in
  on itself.  If so, great!  But if you want to *DO* something, then you need
  to start by analyzing your message and how people are receiving it.

  "Messaging" is much more than "There's no God."  It has to do with
  how you're talking, what you're saying, what they're getting, what they
  need, what you need, and all of it.

  There's not an atheist group or atheist society or whatever that can be
  "converted" into re-messaging, but there *is* you, and there *is* FoRK,
  and this is stuff that *can* be thought about, and reworked, and figured
  out.  Y'all are smart, none of this is past anybody here.

  You need an understanding of how people view atheists, and how the
  way atheists communicates adds or subtracts to that view.  You know:
  Figure it out.  It's a puzzle.  You can solve it.

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