[FoRK] Fwd: Rand Paul: Obama Just Banned 1 Million Firearms

mdw at martinwills.com mdw at martinwills.com
Tue Aug 7 10:57:13 PDT 2012


>
>> I consider you to be nothing more than 10,000 monkeys typing
>> simultaneously in the Google cloud and what I see is the result of their
>> proprietary click algorithms.
>
> A fine riposte.
>

It was meant to be funny and convey that I don't take offense to much if
anything on a email list.  I guess I should have added a :-) ?


>> Sorry, I have nearly died half a dozen times in close calls.  My world
>> view is pretty much set.
>
> Not at all. Its never too late to change. Or be changed. If we move
> through life without risking the possibility of being changed by it,
> then we aren't really living.
>

Or we have lived enough already and just want to sit back and enjoy life.


>>>>> Is there some way we can talk about your position that only members
>>>>> of
>>>>> the armed forces should be citizens and vote?
>
>> My position is my own and I said as much.  I don't particularly like
>> sharing my things with strangers.
>
> Honestly, I have no desire to touch your things.
>

Thank you.  Of course all those women that were supposed to go shrieking
at the sight of me don't mind taking my things. :-)  (see a smiley!)


>> Again, I consider everyone on this list to be nothing more than groups
>> of
>> monkeys typing furiously and the Google cloud translating it.

Again should have put a smiley there since humor is lacking in this group.
Again, I don't rise to flame bait generally.


>> This email list is not a valid forum for debate.  Never has been, never
>> can be.
>
> Why not?
>
>

No arbitration and people who get stinking drunk then rant and ramble.


> Would you consider a lawful and constitutional movement to repeal,
> narrow or alter the 2nd amendment be considered an attempt to destroy
> the country? Is the US really defined by gun ownership laws?
>

I never claimed anything about the 2nd amendment other than to say it is a
right and the forefathers knew exactly what they are doing. Their belief
and reasons for it's inclusion as a right is well founded and proven over
the last 200+ years of its existence.


> From time to time there are proposals that everyone should go through
> some kind of mandatory national service system. As a ritual into
> adulthood and citizenship, this is a fine idea, but the message would
> be missed by most. Certainly, where I have met people from countries
> with national service, they seem pretty much the same as other people.
>

Again, I have found throughout my life that most people ignore or discount
things when they don't have a vested interest (no skin in the game).  It
is a response the majority of humans exhibit.  If a person is personally
involved and accountable they will take the time and effort to be informed
and involved.  People who don't pay attention to what is being taken from
them get taken.  Simple fact of life.

>> No, I think running into a burning compartment, and dogging the hatch
>> behind you in order to help fight the fire and save your comrades as a
>> true measure of ones citizenship.
>
> I'm not a US citizen, but after I saw the first tower collapse, I went
> downtown on 9/11, to do what I could to help out. Does that count?
>

You can't vote in U.S. elections and therefore have no ability to affect
the U.S. Constitution unless you plan to attack the U.S.


> What you are writing about is bravery and self-sacrifice, excellent
> qualities in anyone.
>
> They aren't called for in everyone though, and "normal" life, i.e.
> peacetime life, doesn't provide too many situations that reveal these
> qualities.
>

There are examples all around you.  Why not go to a homeless shelter (or
any other organization that helps the down and out) and volunteer?  That
is self-sacrifice.

> You do make an interesting point though - the moment of self-sacrifice
> (e.g. locking yourself in a burning compartment), is usually more to
> do with your immediate comrades rather than any notions of patriotism
> or citizenship or upholding of constitutions.
>

Generally you are in this position when other people are trying to kill
you. I have never had to do this during any drills.  When other people are
trying to kill you, then I think it is a different situation.


> Discipline, teamwork and purposeful diligence are exactly the
> qualities I have seen in lawyers, doctors, nurses, computer
> programmers, and many many other professions.
>

As long as everything is good, people appear to have these attributes. 
Put them under pressure and it disappears. You only have to look at what
happened after Katrina to understand that it breaks down significantly.


>> This country (U.S.A.) is a team effort,
>
> All countries are team efforts, the US is far from unique in this respect.
>
> Actually, its not exactly true that a country is a team effort. Its
> more complicated than that. Much more complicated.
>

It is not complicated at all. It is very much true.  Only people who try
to make mountains out of mole hills try to make things more complicated.


> Whatever the motivations of loners and egotists, perhaps you can agree
> that they also have roles to play. The artists, scientists, writers,
> philosophers. Even jesters and other assorted cranks?
>

So Charles Mason, Jimmy Jones, and David Koresh should be welcomed with
open arms? Who makes that distinction?


> Other things taught by the military are, e.g. unquestioning deference
> to authority.

That is incorrect.  There is plenty of military law that allows you to
ignore an illegal order.

> Its not clear that this is a useful skill/trait outside
> of the military, and not really a useful trait in a democracy where


We are not a democracy! We are a republic. Following the leaders we elect
is a requirement of our society and we have volumes of laws on the books
to enforce that. If only 1% of the population refuses to abide by court
orders, anarchy is achieved.  The entire legal system of the U.S. is
voluntary.  There are not enough law enforcement or military personnel to
force that 1% to comply.

> As an aside, where I come from, they don't really do high speed chases
> any more - turns out that, on a cost-benefit analysis, less property
> damage and bystander casualties are caused by letting them go and
> catching them another time.

That is only correct in misdemeanor cases.  All KNOWN felony suspects must
be pursued, if you don't, you can be found guilty of intentional
negligence if that person injures another.  I have never heard of any Law
Enforcement Agency (in the U.S.) letting any felon get away deliberately. 
The lawsuits would bankrupt the taxpayers.

> Consider an ants nest - many castes are needed in order for it to
> function. Soldier ants are used in some circumstances, in others,
> foragers, in yet others, workers, drones, or whatever.
>
> When you look at an ants nest, you don't see any one caste as more
> worthy than the others. Instead, you see the whole thing, and maybe
> even marvel at how all these independent minds can form a whole that
> is greater and more wonderous than the sum of the parts.

I'm sorry... When do they get to democratically elect their queen?  What
is their punishment for disobedience?  What do they do to the soldier,
workers, drones when they can no longer function? Do they allow vacations?
Comparing an ants nest to a democratically elected republic is pretty
weak.

--Martin--





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