I've known some kids from Milton, and to be fair, (1) is just as likely as
(2). Although...remember, private school wealth buys coke and E, which are
much more entertaining than an episode of Tom Green. :-) Especially when
you're a 16-year-old - the high is a new experience, whereas watching Tom
Green is probably like hanging out with your older brother.
My TV's busted, so I just watch FoRK all day,
--A.
At 11:28 PM 2/28/01 -0800, James Hong wrote:
>what kind of teenager claims they barely watch tv? Odds are that it's a
>teenager that:
>
>1) isn't normal
>2) is lying through his/her teeth, and is just trying to make everyone think
>s/he's better than everyone else.
>
>Maybe there's a correlation between #2 and people who go to schools called
>the Milton Academy..
>
>j
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matt Jensen" <mattj@newsblip.com>
>To: "Adam Rifkin" <Adam@knownow.com>
>Cc: <FoRK@XeNT.CoM>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:55 PM
>Subject: Re: [PBS] What Teens Want
>
>
> > (First, I claim the ancient right of "old bits" for the documentary
> > itself... http://www.xent.com/feb01/0247.html )
> >
> > Second, please note that all of the kids in the discussion are from Milton
> > Academy(!) It's not just an "independent" school, it's a 200-year-old
> > private school focused on classic academics. (How many other high schools
> > offer Greek?) This may explain why they sat for a discussion with PBS's
> > web site, and why they sounded articulate for their age.
> >
> > I expect PBS chose them because WGBH (which produced the Frontline
> > documentary) in Brighton is a short drive to Milton, and the kids could be
> > expected to be well-behaved and thoughtful.
> >
> > Now, if PBS.org had hosted a second discussion, with kids who go to
> > public schools and belong to the 75% of kids with a TV in their rooms, it
> > might have been very informative to compare the discussions side by side.
> > (Several of the Milton kids say they were raised without a TV.)
> >
> > -Matt Jensen
> > NewsBlip.com
> > Seattle
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Adam Rifkin wrote:
> >
> > > There's a totally compelling PBS report circulating this month
> > > on the feedback cycle of how the media companies give teenagers
> > > what they want (mooks -n- midrifs), which in turn makes the
> > > teenagers more like the images of what they want, which makes
> > > the media companies provide even more of it...
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/
> > >
> > > MTV dramatically closed the feedback loop between culture and
> > > marketing and made it much harder to tell one from the other,
> > > or which came first:
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/themes/symbiotic.html
> > >
> > > If you take that as the kind of ground zero for the MTV experience
> > > and widen it out, it gets more consistent the further you go. And
> > > then if you look at the world we live in today and talk about how
> > > people seem to use advertisements--for example, the Budweiser
> > > advertisement, the "What'sup" thing. Now you hear a lot of people
> > > saying "What'sup" to each other, which they're not saying because
> > > they're trying to market anything. They're saying "What's up," but
> > > they're referencing that Budweiser commercial because that's
> > > something that they have in common and that's their little shared
> > > piece of culture in that community moment. So you can't really
> > > draw the line clearly the way you used to be able to draw the line
>clearly.
> > >
> > > We are down to just six media giants who control practically
> > > everything we see, hear, and are marketed with: Viacom, Newscorp,
> > > Bertlesmann, Disney, Vivendi Universal, and (ahem, the biggest)
> > > AOL Time Warner:
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/giants/
> > >
> > > The thing is, you can be a savvy teen and realize the Rage Against
> > > The Machine is *part* of the machine, that Eminem is not shocking
> > > because he's real but because he's an excellent simulation of what
> > > would be horrifying if it were actually real, and so on...
> > >
> > > You think Eminem gives a damn about a Grammy? Heck yes...
> > >
> > >
>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/etc/dontfwithshady.html
> > >
> > > Imagine what will happen when these teens start entering the workforce
> > > in droves...
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/teens/
> > >
> > > Teenagers are not generally viewers of FRONTLINE reports. And that's why
>we
> > > wanted to make an effort to get their views about this one, "The
>Merchants
> > > of Cool." Because it's about them--how they're the target "demo" for the
> > > media marketers of popular culture today. So here are the reactions of
>just
> > > one small group of teens after watching this FRONTLINE documentary.
>There
> > > were about a dozen who viewed it, all high school juniors and seniors at
> > > Milton Academy, an independent school in the Boston area. We hope their
> > > views might elicit more comments from their peers about this FRONTLINE
> > > report, which we will post in our "Join the Discussion" area of this
>site.
> > >
> > > So what did you think?"
> > > Tor: I got interested in it. I just got kind of annoyed at the fact that
>it
> > > was showing so much of what it was talking about. It felt like I was
> > > watching commercials.
> > >
> > > Willis: . . . There weren't enough kids in it. We heard all these media
> > > executives and whatever, but there was only a real response from the
> > > teenagers at the beginning. . . .
> > >
> > > Laura: I really do feel I was being studied. Like some kind of specimen.
>And
> > > that I didn't have any voice as a teenager. That was kind of weird.
> > >
> > > Was what the media executives were saying about teenagers true to your
> > > experience?
> > >
> > > Laura: I think it was accurate, but it wasn't me telling them. [The
>problems
> > > was] it was them telling me.
> > >
> > > Brian: They were talking about the rebelliousness--but it's not
>rebelling at
> > > all. And they're talking about how teachers are nerds and authority
>figures
> > > are laughable. I mean, they're basically saying, "Everybody sucks except
>for
> > > us."
> > >
> > > Adia: Is pop culture trying to help people?
> > >
> > > Laura: No. It's trying to make money. That's the problem, we're a
> > > money-making culture.
> > >
> > > Tor: It at least pretends that it's trying to help people. Like it
>offers a
> > > solution if you just dumb yourself down enough to accept it. . . .
> > >
> > > Willis: Another related topic is that now that things like Napster and
> > > Gnutella and these computer programs...that's kind of the new wave of
> > > rebellion. Just to completely rip off electronic media--download your
>own
> > > songs for free. Let's see if these media giants are going to be able to
> > > out-run it in the next decade or two.
> > >
> > > Adia: I completely agree. The Internet is too big to control. . . .
> > >
> > > Willis: I think what the Internet has done. . . . You see a lot of
>smaller
> > > [artists and labels] supporting programs like Napster because they can
> > > really get their stuff out. And I can do whatever I want to, as long as
>the
> > > [artists] are willing to put it out there. And the small artists are
>doing
> > > that.
> > >
> > > Tor: With things like Napster, you can't tell people, "This is what you
> > > should be listening to." You can't push it. And because you can't push
>it
> > > the bands stay true to what they were writing about originally. If you
> > > listen to what people say about a lot of bands that have become big--a
>lot
> > > say, "You should listen to their old stuff--It's a lot better, before
>they
> > > got influenced."
> > >
> > > Davis: Eminem was a different artist before he became mainstream.
> > >
> > > What do you think of the Eminem-Grammy controversy?
> > >
> > > Davis: I didn't even watch it. I think the whole Eminem thing is BS. It
> > > really is like the [Insane Clown Posse]: "I'm rebelling, I'm taking it
>to
> > > the next level," just like media has been doing. They started out with
>the
> > > sex years ago and it just keeps escalating. Like the [FRONTLINE program]
> > > said, the media's looking at the teenage generation, taking that image,
>and
> > > I think they're notching it up a step. They're making it that much more
> > > risqué, and then they're selling it back. And you have Eminem with these
> > > absurd lyrics, and it's impossible to believe that any of that is really
> > > true.
> > >
> > > You don't think Eminem's lyrics are actually coming from him?
> > >
> > > Davis: I doubt it. I think that's an example of someone who's trying to
> > > market the next level. No one else is doing that, so he's ahead of the
>game.
> > >
> > > Dan: One of the [media] executives was talking about how they are trying
>to
> > > take things to the next level. The person who made "Cruel Intentions"
>wants
> > > to do something that nobody else has done. And in that sense, that is
>sort
> > > of the way to go. People want to see new things. But to do that, it's
>just
> > > going to escalate. Sexual activity on TV is just getting more explicit.
> > > Vocabulary that's allowed on the radio is getting more and more
>explicit.
> > >
> > > But do you feel you're getting fed more explicit stuff by the media? Or
>do
> > > you feel that you, as a generation, are asking for the more explicit
> > > material?
> > >
> > > Adia: It's both. . . . And society as a whole, because of this downward
> > > spiral in teenagers, is kind of going downward. Let's take sex and
>violence,
> > > which is what you see everywhere. I am inevitably polluted with it all
>the
> > > time. But once I turn 18, I'm not just going to forget about it. It's
>still
> > > going to be there. And I'm going to take that pollution (that's what
>I'll
> > > call it for now) and I'm just going to take that with me for the rest of
>my
> > > life. And that's just going to affect everything from then on. I think
>it's
> > > a downward spiral not just for the teenagers and the media, but for US
> > > culture. . . .
> > >
> > > Brian: I think one of the main problems is that with all of this
>constant
> > > influx of information and also collapse of morals, it ends up creating
>an
> > > apathy. I don't think people are as happy as they would be if they were
>able
> > > to do things of their own--as opposed to being told what to do and
>having,
> > > in a lot of ways, no minds of their own because they have no way of
> > > expressing themselves. Everything is forced into them.
> > >
> > > Willis: Tuning it out is a way of expressing yourself. I've pretty much
> > > stopped watching MTV. I live in the dorm. Sometimes it's going to be
> > > playing. Then I don't really have a choice. But mainly I watch what I'm
> > > interested in which is basketball. . . . .
> > >
> > > Dan: I don't really understand how advertising can make that much effect
>on
> > > the population. When I'm listening to the radio, I'll listen to a song I
> > > like and as soon as that song goes off and an ad comes on, I change the
> > > channel, trying to find something else. . . . [Ads] don't make me buy
> > > something. It seems like it's more just about name recognition. And we
> > > talked about this in our film class. It doesn't sell me a product, but
>it
> > > sells me the name. And whether I go out and buy that, at least I feel
>like
> > > it's my own choice still.
> > >
> > > Do you ever think that maybe it's not your choice? That you're just
>being
> > > programmed in some way?
> > >
> > > Dan: I honestly don't. One example is, I wear Nike shoes. Yes, it is a
>big
> > > huge name brand and there's tons of advertising on it. And I've gone out
>and
> > > I've worn Reeboks or whatever. And honestly, the one pair of Reeboks I
>ever
> > > had fell apart in a month. So to me, I found something that I like,
>that's
> > > comfortable, and that stays in one piece, and so that's why I buy Nike.
> > >
> > > Why don't you buy some no-name?
> > >
> > > Sara: You can't even get a no-name brand.
> > >
> > > Adia: . . . That's kind of what was so depressing about the documentary.
>It
> > > really is like a spiral. And it seems as though right now we're way too
>far
> > > into it to get out of it. Nike has way more money than beginning shoe
> > > companies could have. For example, Converse. I love Converse. . . . But
>then
> > > it sold out. It sold out to the same company that has New Balance and
> > > Skechers. The film mentioned the five conglomerates. They're so big,
>they're
> > > so huge, that you really stand no chance going against them. . . .
> > >
> > > Davis: I have a question--for anyone--which is: I do disagree with the
>AOL
> > > Time-Warner--the big five. But is it wrong for Time Warner, or is it
>wrong
> > > for Viacom to own MTV and to own all of this--is it wrong to buy smaller
> > > companies out in a capitalistic society?
> > >
> > > Adia: No, but it's disgusting. [laughter]
> > >
> > > Brian: I think it is wrong. I think that it depends on what their motive
>is.
> > > And their motive is not to help anyone. It's to make money for
>themselves.
> > > And they talk about, "We give money to charity." They want you to know
>they
> > > give money to charity. It's all about making money for themselves.
> > >
> > > Jonathan: What's wrong with that?
> > >
> > > Willis: Well, for better or for worse, that's capitalism. And that's the
> > > system we have. If we want to switch to socialism, then let's become
> > > politically active and do that. . . .
> > >
> > > Laura: There was one comment in the documentary that it's a really
>limited
> > > pool, like our political system--only a certain number of people could
>run
> > > for president because they're rich white males. And I think that we
>can't
> > > ever say that we're buying what we want, when the choices are so
>limited.
> > >
> > > Dan: I agree with you that our selection is really limited. But at the
>same
> > > time, I think that if I found that I hated Nikes, I would switch to
>another
> > > brand. And I think that if you want to, you can search and you can find
> > > variety. . . .
> > >
> > > Laura: What worries me is that in the future there will be no companies
>out
> > > there who have earned that position of prominence. Like they showed that
> > > band that they just promoted and promoted and they wouldn't necessarily
>have
> > > become famous if they hadn't been promoted. And if all the companies are
> > > like that, then there could be a time when none of them are good and it
>will
> > > be impossible to find something else. That's what worries me.
> > >
> > > Adia: And when you look at the progression of that, that means that when
>we
> > > grow up and want to start a company--let's say I want to start a band,
>or
> > > let's say you want to make shoes when you get older--that means that
>you're
> > > going to be eaten up by a conglomerate, basically. And you're going to
>have
> > > to be a part of that culture. Because that's really what it's leading.
> > >
> > > Brian: . . . . I don't know what the answer is. One of my teachers
>said--and
> > > I hope that in some way she's right--she believes this is a regular
>cycle.
> > > It's a moral collapse that happens. And it happens in societies every
>once
> > > in a while. And eventually it will burn out. People will get tired of
>having
> > > no morals. Tired of being told what to do, and things will change.
> > >
> > > Tor: I think already it's becoming more and more popular for parents to
> > > raise their kids without TV. I personally was raised in a house without
>TV.
> > > I read all the time.
> > >
> > > Laura: Me, too.
> > >
> > > Tor: I still have approximately no connection with the media. I don't
>have
> > > time for TV, don't have time for the radio, really. I don't have time
>for
> > > the newspaper. I have time to notice things like as I'm walking around.
>I
> > > think, people are realizing that things like TV (just as an example) are
> > > becoming faulty, and that people are rebelling against that just by
>blocking
> > > it out.
> > >
> > > Adia: I don't think people are realizing that. One of the first
>statistics
> > > that they said [in the documentary] is that 75% of American teens have a
>TV
> > > in their room. And boy that's kind of scary. I mean, if 75% have that,
>then
> > > clearly we're totally in the minority. . . .
> > >
> > > Dan: I know that I come from a fairly wealthy, well-off family. And the
>idea
> > > of having a TV in my room, to my parents and to me, is kind of
>ridiculous. .
> > > . . I don't know many of my friends who have a TV in their room. And
>that
> > > number seems really, really high to me.
> > >
> > > Adia: . . . . We may not watch it, but I'm convinced we're the minority.
> > > Because everyone else does.
> > >
> > > Davis: I think all this talk of how we're the minority has brought the
>idea
> > > in my head that it's interesting, as we're sitting here seeing this
> > > FRONTLINE thing, we obviously share a lot of these ideas about how we
>hate
> > > the big five and all this marketing. I think it would be interesting to
>hear
> > > what your "Abercrombie kids" or your "American Eagle kids" would think
>about
> > > all this after they saw it, and they saw that a lot of what they do is
> > > marketed and planned. And also I wonder why none of those kids are here.
> > >
> > > Sara: I'm wearing an American Eagle shirt and Skechers, and I am a media
> > > addict. I watch probably way more TV than all of you guys put together.
>I
> > > read Entertainment Weekly . [laughter] I am not the Abercrombie
> > > representative here, but I don't feel like the problem is that there's a
> > > breakdown of morals, or that the culture is evil, or that there's some
>kind
> > > of encroachment. I feel the problem is that we're not represented in our
> > > culture. We don't create it and it's not born of anything of us. It's
>born
> > > of what they're trying to give to us, which is really what worries me. .
>. .
> > >
> > > Jonathan: In reference to creating, I think the FRONTLINE documentary
> > > pointed out that it is created at the level of the independent,
> > > forward-minded kids. But where it goes astray is when media companies
>pick
> > > it up and they try to market it. That's when it turns into something big
>and
> > > something possibly even evil. And perhaps I think the Internet is one
>outlet
> > > of independent-minded people. I mean, it's an opportunity for anybody to
>be
> > > as big as one of those big five.
> > >
> > > What about the gender images and the stereotypes being marketed? Any
> > > thoughts on the boy "mook" idea or the girl sexpot idea as sketched in
>the
> > > FRONTLINE film? Did that ring true to you?
> > >
> > > Davis: I think that the mook stuff and all that does ring true. I could
>name
> > > a few kids in my class that are mooks, or are whatever the other term
>was.
> > > It does ring true. . . .There are kids who respond to [that sort of
>thing],
> > > who are really "in your face" and who are assholes. Some kids respond to
> > > that activity. And obviously MTV's caught onto it, and it's too bad.
> > > Personally I think the people like Tom Green and shows like Jackass are
> > > responsible for some of the moral decline we're seeing, because they're
> > > putting it on MTV, one of the most popular TV stations, and it's kind of
>a
> > > cliché but they're giving people these idols or role models.
> > >
> > > Tor: One thing that gets to me about Tom Green is that he is talented;
>he's
> > > just talented at being a tool. [laughter] It really gets to me. If he
>wasn't
> > > on TV, would he be doing the exact same things? What would he be doing
>if he
> > > wasn't on TV? Doesn't that scare you?
> > >
> > > Willis: He would be arrested a lot more often because he wouldn't be in
>the
> > > protection of MTV on an MTV spring break cruise.
> > >
> > > Tor: The media has been telling us that money will make us happy.
>Everyone's
> > > trying to get to be happy, and the media is telling us, "If you just
>have
> > > enough money, you can buy it." And so people who buy into that are
>looking
> > > for money, to the exclusion of just about anything else--which is where
>Tom
> > > Green comes in. Tom Green is a great way for them to get little boys to
> > > watch that show, to watch their advertising, for them to influence the
>minds
> > > of little boys, then to make more money off the kids. . . .
> > >
> > > Willis: I want to say on another note, we keep speaking about "us" and
> > > "them" and "we" and "they." And you know, we're becoming the trend
>setters
> > > here. You realize that our little debate here is being recorded and it's
> > > going to go on a website. And that website will be advertised on TV to a
> > > national audience. And we in turn will be posting the ideas that our
>peers
> > > and those younger than us can feed off of. [laughter] Isn't it strange
>how
> > > we've been rebelling against it, and we [are still part of it?]
> > >
> > >
> > > ----
> > > Adam@KnowNow.Com
> > >
> > > We don't call it Detroit, we call it Amityville;
> > > You can get capped after just havin a cavity filled.
> > > Ahahahaha, that's why we're crowned the murder capital still;
> > > This ain't Detroit, this is motherFoRKin Hamburger Hill!
> > > We don't do drivebys, we park in front of houses and shoot,
> > > and when the police come we FoRKin shoot it out with them too!
> > > That's the mentality here, that's the reality here...
> > > -- Eminem, "Amityville"
> > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Apr 27 2001 - 23:13:12 PDT